It's like AT ALPA is trying to burn their undeserved lottery ticket...

[GuppyWN]

So why exactly do I have to take a 30% hit in relative seniority and not be able to upgrade on the airframes we brought over when 2600 SWA FO's will upgrade before me?I'm a fairly senior AT FO,in fact 75 numbers from upgrade.I've been in the game 20 years,on my 5th airline,and with no growth will probably never upgrade before I retire.Personally,at this stage of the game,I don't care about the seat;I've been there before.I know SWA is a great airline and I'll be proud to be a part of the team but I really don't understand why any SW FO would be angry.

In YOUR case this deal is a no-brainer.

You're late in the game and you just got your Airtran captain pay for the rest of your career.

Stay at Airtran and your company is down $18 million in 2011.

I really don't care how you vote or even if you vote. Just telling you how I see it from your perspective.

You gotta understand. If there is a WN FO in your position he just threw the rest of his career away. Now, unless there is explosive growth, he'll never upgrade and he'll NEVER see your 30% bump cause it's really not evident until 2020.

Plain and simple - this deal sucks for both sides.

Gup

 

[waveflyer]

GearUpJammer- since you're the latest to throw out the mathematically brilliant 30% loss of relative seniority- can you tell me what your seniority loss would be if you got your wet dream of DOH?
And do that same math for your #1 guy and your bottom guy. If you dont mind.
Please and thank you.

 

[GearUpJammer]

In YOUR case this deal is a no-brainer.

You're late in the game and you just got your Airtran captain pay for the rest of your career.

Stay at Airtran and your company is down $18 million in 2011.

I really don't care how you vote or even if you vote. Just telling you how I see it from your perspective.

You gotta understand. If there is a WN FO in your position he just threw the rest of his career away. Now, unless there is explosive growth, he'll never upgrade and he'll NEVER see your 30% bump cause it's really not evident until


Plain and simple - this deal sucks for both sides.

Gup

Fair enough Gup

 

[General Lee]

I get a single digit gain. The facts are that with a pilot group the size of 6000 vs 1700, the whole thing doesn't move the system seniority that much for the SW pilots. That is not meant as a slight, or even a complaint, just the mathematics.

Whatever seniority hit you take is unfortunate, but it's the reality of a smaller carrier being bought buy one that's 3.5 times the size. That's a massive difference just in company size only.

These two companies are so different on so many metrics (size, contracts, bases, even the 717). The only good fit is the 737, and very little overlap on routes. And the slots that the SW corporation gets..

I would say the arbitor will most likely look at this ISL, maybe tweek it a little and toss it on the table. And for those that say they aren't supposed to know what's going on here, I would bet you they've already seen it. I know that they have already been very interested in what it looked like.

RF

You have the same sized planes. This isn't AK merging with DL, with AK having the 737-900 as the largest plane. This is AT and SWA merging lists, with both having 737-700s as the largest plane. Paychecks don't matter to arbitrators--See lower paid Colgan Dash Captains flying Dash-8-400s the same size as CRJ-900s at the others, getting merged in with PNCL and Mesaba CRJ Captains.

If the Airtran guys choose arbitration, I would think the arbitrators will place the Airtran guys higher up on the list, and there certainly wouldn't be 670 or so Airtran guys at the bottom, just above the poolies and 80 hired at SWA after the merger announcement. The Airtran guys would probably get a better deal seniority wise (which is forever), and the pay would eventually follow. This deal is a done deal on Wall Street, and I don't see anyone giving in on the management side. The simple finger to point would be at the arbitrator, and then they would move on with business and life. It will be interesting to watch what the Airtran MC and negotiators do, along with the MEC. It seems like they will be looking for a better deal.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[GearUpJammer]

GearUpJammer- since you're the latest to throw out the mathematically brilliant 30% loss of relative seniority- can you tell me what your seniority loss would be if you got your wet dream of DOH?
And do that same math for your #1 guy and your bottom guy. If you dont mind.
Please and thank you.

Don't know Wave,but I never said I wanted DOH.

 

[General Lee]

In YOUR case this deal is a no-brainer.

You're late in the game and you just got your Airtran captain pay for the rest of your career.

Stay at Airtran and your company is down $18 million in 2011.

I really don't care how you vote or even if you vote. Just telling you how I see it from your perspective.

You gotta understand. If there is a WN FO in your position he just threw the rest of his career away. Now, unless there is explosive growth, he'll never upgrade and he'll NEVER see your 30% bump cause it's really not evident until 2020.

Plain and simple - this deal sucks for both sides.

Gup

Seniority is forever Gup. You are hoping the Airtran Captains will take the deal, even though they might get a better deal via an arbitrator. What's the worst that could happen if the Airtran MEC holds out for a better deal? Do you really think the CEO would pull the plug this late in the game, after Wall Street approved of the deal? Doubtful. But, I can see why you would want this to go through, and avoid arbitration. You don't want someone or a panel with no conflicts of interest to decide something so important, to you and the Airtran pilots.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[GuppyWN]

http://forums.flightinfo.com/member.php?u=5543

General Lee This message is hidden because General Lee is on your ignore list.

Let me guess. Screw WN. Push for arbitration.

Gup

 

[General Lee]

Don't know Wave,but I never said I wanted DOH.

Seniority is forever. There may be more mergers in your future, but the next group may decide to go the arbitration route and you will still be stuck with whatever you decide here.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[GuppyWN]

http://forums.flightinfo.com/member.php?u=5543

General Lee This message is hidden because General Lee is on your ignore list.

Let me guess.

I love ice cream sundaes over the arctic cap and you should push for arbitration.

Gup

 

[General Lee]

Let me guess. Screw WN. Push for arbitration.

Gup

Some people can't handle the truth, and don't want to even discuss it. I never said screw WN. An arbitrator would look at the whole picture, and give a fair award, which is what some on here are afraid of, obviously.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[GuppyWN]

http://forums.flightinfo.com/member.php?u=5543

General Lee This message is hidden because General Lee is on your ignore list.

Let me guess.

Good luck in Atlanta, enjoy Lubbock and AAI should push for arbitration.

Gup

 

[waveflyer]

Don't know Wave,but I never said I wanted DOH.

You don't know. Yet the hyperbolic rebel rousing 30% LOSS of seniority was typed out by you. That is a pure talking point statistical lie perpetuated by the pro-ALPA/vote no/delay-delay campaign there.

You get that number and then compare it to the unrealistic DOH and you'll see this is much fairer than being portrayed by that. We've been in business for longer than twice as long as you- using that 30% is nothing but a cheap line to raise the blood pressure of your collective to support an agenda that doesn't look out for you.

Btw- DOH is a 4-5% loss of relative seniority for our bottom pilots.

And btw, again- details forthcoming, but I only want a yes vote so that we can turn this thing into a success- that's the best job security I know of.

 

[bravodude]

check this out - this AT guy actually likes the deal - says Vote YES - and he looks junior

Can't believe it....

http://tinyurl.com/airtranyesvote

What dela what that be, the one you guys cant even see or the one that that the MEC can't even vote on.

 

[Flycatcher99]

Seniority is forever. There may be more mergers in your future, but the next group may decide to go the arbitration route and you will still be stuck with whatever you decide here.


Bye Bye---General Lee

This line of thinking is amusing. It's been professed several times on here, usually by a dim-witted, loquacious non-participant.

To paraphrase, "Hey, you may be part of another merger at SWA, so don't back down now! Otherwise, um, SWA would set a precedent for getting more in the SLI than the acquired airline like you guys. Which would, uh, mean that the SWA pilots will get better seniority than they should. So, um, fight this thing in arbitration, so that later on if you guys acquire another airline, that future acquired airline will have a precedent to do better. Because, see, you want to help that future smaller carrier to grab more seniority, and, uh, no, wait.....uh, nevermind."

Please, GL, keep encouraging these guys to fight this thing. First of all, I'm sure they care what you think. Second, ALPA needs your help getting more egg on their face.

 

[CaptainKiwi]

Seniority is forever. There may be more mergers in your future, but the next group may decide to go the arbitration route and you will still be stuck with whatever you decide here.


Bye Bye---General Lee

If "Seniority is forever", then an AAI guy should never be able to touch a SWA pilot's seniority. Its forever, right?

The SWA pilot has SWA seniority. The AAI pilot has AAI senority. Everyone agrees the Airtran brand will no longer exist, yet the AAI guys claim they want to keep their AAI seniority cause its forever. Why keep senority at an airline that will cease to exist?

The AAI pilots are tasked at negotiating into SWA senority. They are trying to negotiate something that doesn't yet belong to them. However, somewhere along the way a SWA pilot's senority will be harmed. So the statement of senority is forever doesn't make any sense.