It's like AT ALPA is trying to burn their undeserved lottery ticket...

[GuppyWN]

http://forums.flightinfo.com/member.php?u=5543

General Lee This message is hidden because General Lee is on your ignore list.

Let me guess.

Good luck in Atlanta, enjoy Lubbock and AAI should push for arbitration.

Gup

 

[waveflyer]

Don't know Wave,but I never said I wanted DOH.

You don't know. Yet the hyperbolic rebel rousing 30% LOSS of seniority was typed out by you. That is a pure talking point statistical lie perpetuated by the pro-ALPA/vote no/delay-delay campaign there.

You get that number and then compare it to the unrealistic DOH and you'll see this is much fairer than being portrayed by that. We've been in business for longer than twice as long as you- using that 30% is nothing but a cheap line to raise the blood pressure of your collective to support an agenda that doesn't look out for you.

Btw- DOH is a 4-5% loss of relative seniority for our bottom pilots.

And btw, again- details forthcoming, but I only want a yes vote so that we can turn this thing into a success- that's the best job security I know of.

 

[bravodude]

check this out - this AT guy actually likes the deal - says Vote YES - and he looks junior

Can't believe it....

http://tinyurl.com/airtranyesvote

What dela what that be, the one you guys cant even see or the one that that the MEC can't even vote on.

 

[Flycatcher99]

Seniority is forever. There may be more mergers in your future, but the next group may decide to go the arbitration route and you will still be stuck with whatever you decide here.


Bye Bye---General Lee

This line of thinking is amusing. It's been professed several times on here, usually by a dim-witted, loquacious non-participant.

To paraphrase, "Hey, you may be part of another merger at SWA, so don't back down now! Otherwise, um, SWA would set a precedent for getting more in the SLI than the acquired airline like you guys. Which would, uh, mean that the SWA pilots will get better seniority than they should. So, um, fight this thing in arbitration, so that later on if you guys acquire another airline, that future acquired airline will have a precedent to do better. Because, see, you want to help that future smaller carrier to grab more seniority, and, uh, no, wait.....uh, nevermind."

Please, GL, keep encouraging these guys to fight this thing. First of all, I'm sure they care what you think. Second, ALPA needs your help getting more egg on their face.

 

[CaptainKiwi]

Seniority is forever. There may be more mergers in your future, but the next group may decide to go the arbitration route and you will still be stuck with whatever you decide here.


Bye Bye---General Lee

If "Seniority is forever", then an AAI guy should never be able to touch a SWA pilot's seniority. Its forever, right?

The SWA pilot has SWA seniority. The AAI pilot has AAI senority. Everyone agrees the Airtran brand will no longer exist, yet the AAI guys claim they want to keep their AAI seniority cause its forever. Why keep senority at an airline that will cease to exist?

The AAI pilots are tasked at negotiating into SWA senority. They are trying to negotiate something that doesn't yet belong to them. However, somewhere along the way a SWA pilot's senority will be harmed. So the statement of senority is forever doesn't make any sense.

 

[Fubijaakr]

You miss me? I stayed off SWA threads on purpose, until the Hired not aquired crowd started their BS.

I know. I really had no interest until the FI.com SWA F/Os decided to parade their arrogance in public.

Couple that with the SWA F/Os who run the "geezermeter" thread and the irony is incredible. They're hot because some of their guys decided to stay in the left seat for 5 years while at the same time espousing stapling 650 of their coworkers and relegating them to a decade stuck in the right seat.

What a bunch of great guys!

If Lumberg & Fubi are having a conversation in the forest, does anyone care?

Of course they do. You know how you can tell? By the howls of outrage and name calling they resort to when you expose their feet of clay.

Ignore Fubar....he is our resident "GOMER"

See what I mean?

Recent arbitration doesn't seem to care about pay differences. I think you should just roll the dice and see how arbitration turns out for you. You seem pretty confident in the end result.

In fact, pay has come into play only once. Yet, this is the position the SWAPA is hanging their hat. The overwhelming result of recent arbitrations has been some form of ratio.

Personally, in this case, DoH might be the way to go.

 

[General Lee]

If "Seniority is forever", then an AAI guy should never be able to touch a SWA pilot's seniority. Its forever, right?

The SWA pilot has SWA seniority. The AAI pilot has AAI senority. Everyone agrees the Airtran brand will no longer exist, yet the AAI guys claim they want to keep their AAI seniority cause its forever. Why keep senority at an airline that will cease to exist?

The AAI pilots are tasked at negotiating into SWA senority. They are trying to negotiate something that doesn't yet belong to them. However, somewhere along the way a SWA pilot's senority will be harmed. So the statement of senority is forever doesn't make any sense.

Way to go promoting the "SWA culture." Sheesh! An arbitrator will TELL YOU where you belong on YOUR seniority list. You can accept it (binding), or be wheenies like the USAir East guys. (everyone has lost respect for them) It's called a MERGER, a merger of the lists. Mergers happen all the time in the business world. Things like 9-11 happen in the real world. You need to come back to Earth and understand that you just aren't that special because "Things happen, and things change". And you fly to El Paso. Get over yourself. Enjoy the CULTURE.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[bravodude]

Way to go promoting the "SWA culture." Sheesh! An arbitrator will TELL YOU where you belong on YOUR seniority list. You can accept it (binding), or be wheenies like the USAir East guys. (everyone has lost respect for them) It's called a MERGER, a merger of the lists. Mergers happen all the time in the business world. Things like 9-11 happen in the real world. You need to come back to Earth and understand that you just aren't that special because "Things happen, and things change". And you fly to El Paso. Get over yourself. Enjoy the CULTURE.


Bye Bye---General Lee

For gods sake this is not a merger this is an acquisition. GK himself has said its an acquisition, you are correct acquisitions happen all the time in the business world. The side being acquired usually is let go!

 

[General Lee]

For gods sake this is not a merger this is an acquisition. GK himself has said its an acquisition, you are correct acquisitions happen all the time in the business world. The side being acquired usually is let go!

So, you're "Aquisitioning" the Seniority list? No, no you're not. An arbitrator won't allow that. He would decide. And everyone being aquired is usually LET GO you say? Whatever, Gordon Gecko.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[StopNTSing]

Sure, he could.

But he would be "salting the earth". There would be serious blow back in ATL, and no pilot group, EVER, would ever willingly have anything to do with SWA.

Oh, you mean they might laugh at how we do a lot of things differently from the rest of the industry? Or maybe they'll even start taking cheap shots at us on some internet forums? :bawling:

SWA's only growth model going forward is via aquisition.

I know that has quickly become the conventional wisdom in the biz ever since the ATN acquisition was announced, but how many times have you seen the conventional wisdom turn out to be wrong? ......especially when it's about Southwest and comes from a Delta know-it-all

If he goes scorched earth with AAI, every future purchase will be knock down, drag out.

Nu

Is this supposed to be a bad thing for us? Newsflash: the BEST we could now possibly hope for out of this goat-rope is that Gary K. comes away from it vowing "NEVER AGAIN!"

 

[Empennage]

So, you're "Aquisitioning" the Seniority list? No, no you're not. An arbitrator won't allow that. He would decide. And everyone being aquired is usually LET GO you say? Whatever, Gordon Gecko.


Bye Bye---General Lee

You finally ran out.

 

[scoreboardII]

Score...thanks for keeping it civil.

What you are failing to mention in your ownership opinion is this:

When SWA the Company entered into the agreement to bring AAI into the fold ("acquired" as some of your guys like to say), they also accepted/inherited the AirTran CBA in its entirety including all of the scope provisions contained therein. It is those scope protections that protect a pilot group and their years of seniority and longevity. What if the new mega carrier known as Delta/Northwest decided to acquire SWA? Would you not expect your years of service to SWA to be protected just like we at AAI do? Would you not expect a fair and equitable SLI that results in you being viewed as a peer among your new fellow pilots rather than a 2nd class citizen?

So you view fair and equitable as a..."liability"?

To say AAI brought "nothing to the deal" is preposterous. It smacks of elitism.

Some would say that what AAI brings to the table is for the benefit of SWA the Company, not SWAPA the pilot group and therefore SWAPA the pilot group gains nothing, but A-ALPA the pilot group gains substantially. Monetarily...yes. But that is between SWA the Company and A-ALPA. Those gains are for doing the exact same job as a SWAPA pilot. Should an AAI pilot have to give up 32% seniority for doing the same job as a SWAPA pilot?

Has any Harm come to a SWAPA pilot in this AIP? What does a SWAPA pilot gain? How about the critical mass that comes with the overnight addition of 140 aircraft to the combined fleet along with the 50 options, the latter of which equals growth, the former of which ensures that the new combined company has the mass and muscle to hold their own against the new behemoths of the industry: the aforementioned DAL/NW, the new UAL/CAL, and possibly a 3rd titan in the form of AMR/???.

So, yes...let's please keep to the facts when discussing what's really happening, thanks.

Don, I'm not saying AAI didn't bring anything to the table, just that the pilots are only bringing themselves. The CBA of AT is a liability for SWAPA, not a bad thing, yet a liability which must be dealt with in any case.

Has harm come to swapa pilots? Yes. Biggest being a thing we call culture, hard to describe to those on the outside, I'll just leave it to say we don't want to see our culture destroyed by the shenanigans of an outside suitor. We believe in starting at the bottom and working your way up. Not as punishment nor a haze, but as training in the art of our spirit, you learn by doing, not by reading a book, again, something hard for outsiders to understand so the first thing they usually do is throw out terms like "elitist".

You mention aircraft numbers; again, AT pilots bring zero aircraft, those belonged to AT, bought by SWA, from monies earned by SWA pilots. AT pilots bring a liability of industry arbitrations showing seat locks, counter to reasonable seniority awards. This would be "a harm" against those SWA FO's who are senior to an AT pilot who gets to keep his seat, get our pay which we spent negotiating capital on, and gets it for life.

Do you not agree SWA pilots sacrificed a minimum three years of no growth/zero upgrades so cash could be accumulated for the eventual buyout of AAI? That money could have purchased SWA jets, not AT jets.

You mention the hypothetical DAL takeover of SWA, given SWA's track record, it's more likely the other way around. We have cash on hand to buy AA outright, but aren't that stupid.

I'll finish and say I see your point, but my point makes more sense, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[On Your Six]

Don, I'm not saying AAI didn't bring anything to the table, just that the pilots are only bringing themselves. The CBA of AT is a liability for SWAPA, not a bad thing, yet a liability which must be dealt with in any case.

Has harm come to swapa pilots? Yes. Biggest being a thing we call culture, hard to describe to those on the outside, I'll just leave it to say we don't want to see our culture destroyed by the shenanigans of an outside suitor. We believe in starting at the bottom and working your way up. Not as punishment nor a haze, but as training in the art of our spirit, you learn by doing, not by reading a book, again, something hard for outsiders to understand so the first thing they usually do is throw out terms like "elitist".

You mention aircraft numbers; again, AT pilots bring zero aircraft, those belonged to AT, bought by SWA, from monies earned by SWA pilots. AT pilots
bring a liability of industry arbitrations showing seat locks, counter to reasonable seniority awards. This would be "a harm" against those SWA FO's who are senior to an AT pilot who gets to keep his seat, get our pay which we spent negotiating capital on, and gets it for life.

Do you not agree SWA pilots sacrificed a minimum three years of no growth/zero upgrades so cash could be accumulated for the eventual buyout of AAI? That money could have purchased SWA jets, not AT jets.

You mention the hypothetical DAL takeover of SWA, given SWA's track record, it's more likely the other way around. We have cash on hand to buy AA outright, but aren't that stupid.

I'll finish and say I see your point, but my point makes more sense, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

How ridiculous! You believe WHAT? Starting from the ground up? Sorry, that doesn't happen in mergers, or acquisitions these days. Please be the first witness on the stand at arbitration, everyone will bust up laughing, and probably laughing and choking on their own hysterical vomit. You don't get out much, do you Forest Gump? With 5 legs a day, maybe you don't? You need to start realizing that you are just one of many, and not the one and ONLY.


OYS

 

[scoreboardII]

This message is hidden because On Your Six is on your ignore list.

If I want your opinion, I'll give it to you.

 

[Quimby]

I know. I really had no interest until the FI.com SWA F/Os decided to parade their arrogance in public.

Couple that with the SWA F/Os who run the "geezermeter" thread and the irony is incredible. They're hot because some of their guys decided to stay in the left seat for 5 years while at the same time espousing stapling 650 of their coworkers and relegating them to a decade stuck in the right seat.

What a bunch of great guys!



Of course they do. You know how you can tell? By the howls of outrage and name calling they resort to when you expose their feet of clay.



See what I mean?



In fact, pay has come into play only once. Yet, this is the position the SWAPA is hanging their hat. The overwhelming result of recent arbitrations has been some form of ratio.

Personally, in this case, DoH might be the way to go.

Yawn.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Just like when the earth stopped it's rotation and there was a moment of silence in Atlanta when the beloved Delta filed for bankruptcy? At the least the double breasted arrogance stopped...for one day.

But never fear.....the Flag tie wearing, leather jacket DEEbaggery never slowed its roll!!!

 

[redflyer65]

Your right Billy, we just kept making money.

 

[tzskipper]

Don, I'm not saying AAI didn't bring anything to the table, just that the pilots are only bringing themselves. The CBA of AT is a liability for SWAPA, not a bad thing, yet a liability which must be dealt with in any case.

Has harm come to swapa pilots? Yes. Biggest being a thing we call culture, hard to describe to those on the outside, I'll just leave it to say we don't want to see our culture destroyed by the shenanigans of an outside suitor. We believe in starting at the bottom and working your way up. Not as punishment nor a haze, but as training in the art of our spirit, you learn by doing, not by reading a book, again, something hard for outsiders to understand so the first thing they usually do is throw out terms like "elitist".

You mention aircraft numbers; again, AT pilots bring zero aircraft, those belonged to AT, bought by SWA, from monies earned by SWA pilots. AT pilots bring a liability of industry arbitrations showing seat locks, counter to reasonable seniority awards. This would be "a harm" against those SWA FO's who are senior to an AT pilot who gets to keep his seat, get our pay which we spent negotiating capital on, and gets it for life.

Do you not agree SWA pilots sacrificed a minimum three years of no growth/zero upgrades so cash could be accumulated for the eventual buyout of AAI? That money could have purchased SWA jets, not AT jets.

You mention the hypothetical DAL takeover of SWA, given SWA's track record, it's more likely the other way around. We have cash on hand to buy AA outright, but aren't that stupid.

I'll finish and say I see your point, but my point makes more sense, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

Just to clarify a point; the (post acquisition) net cash used for the buyout was $35 million. This is the net after accounting for the cash that AAI had on hand that SWA took possession of. The rest of the purchase was in stock.

S

 

[scoreboardII]

And $2B in aquired debt.

 

[The Prussian]

And $2B in aquired debt.

I was just about to say that.