I'm done. (NWA/DAL)

[Superpilot92]

What I used was something before DAL proposal came out. It is based upon seats avail from each airline, and what those seats are. I plugged in NWA's list when I got it. In essence I have my own excel spread sheet.
DAL's proposal is very close to what ratio by equipment is.
It will not be one or the other, I have stated that. We have already made progress on that. It will probably be near where the negotiations are(rumored--I would not want to get accused of stating something I do not have 100% knowledge of). From what I hear they think it will still be a negotiated list.
We shall see.

Fair enough, both sides are going for whats best for their associate pilot groups and that was to be expected. Its going to fall somewhere between both proposals and we will all have to live with the results. We'll see

 

[XTW]

DOH with tall fences is the way to go. Nobody can bitch about losing longevity and nobody can bitch about a windfall in regard to equipment.

 

[jetflier]

Yeah, but holding grudges (and fences) is what the nw mec is all about. 26 arbitrations in 22 years. All so their bafoon mec can say, "well, sorry guys, but we gave it our best. Its not our fault."

NWA ALPA has never had a lawsuit against the airline or ALPA as a result of a merger. DAL ALPA has had merger related lawsuits ,...from each of its previous "successful" mergers. Lawsuits that were all related to DAL ALPA's method of seniority intergration.

I don't think that the arbitrators believe that previous DAL mergers were all that great, when the NWA/ Republic merger never had a lawsuit against it.

 

[EMBpilot]

... Your new manning rules (2 Capts over 12 hour flights and 2 FOs) will allow plenty of upgrades on 744s..

They didn't have that?? It was 1 CA and 3 FO's, really? I thought it was one of the classy airlines..

 

[DTW320]

They didn't have that?? It was 1 CA and 3 FO's, really? I thought it was one of the classy airlines..

Yes....they did. For years and years....before bankruptcy. It was lost during the BK contract negotiations. Do we need to start a list of what both sides lost vs kept as they went through the bankruptcy process, or should we make blanket statements about "class" based on a single contractual item?

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

And we had it for he 1st augment also. Not just the double crewed flights. Of course, every negotiation since I have been here the company has thrown in our faces that fact. DELTA, amr,cal,ual etc, etc has fo augment(at least under 12 for our esteemed brothers at DELTA) how do you expect us to compete. Well, they finally got it from us in court. We were the ONLY holdouts for the 8-12 hour segments. Also the last to accept a B-scale while all the rest fell for the growth scale

Yes....they did. For years and years....before bankruptcy. It was lost during the BK contract negotiations. Do we need to start a list of what both sides lost vs kept as they went through the bankruptcy process, or should we make blanket statements about "class" based on a single contractual item?

 

[General Lee]

75/76 are set up as one class. The jets I listed are the largest aircraft (top 10% of the combined fleet and have MTGW > 500K). They are also the aircraft which goes most senior on both lists. More importantly, DALPA and ACL like to twist things and play with numbers. I'm just returning the favor.

Schwanker

edit: It seems to be working as it's getting under ACL's skin. He has a real case of tunnel vision/kool-aide syndrome.

Did you and NWALPA forget about our 767-400s? They pay $20 more an hour than the other 757/767s, and are a seperate category. We have 21 of them (I believe?), and they are very senior. But........you seem to forget about them, a lot... They aint premium, I guess...


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[DTW320]

Did you and NWALPA forget about our 767-400s? They pay $20 more an hour than the other 757/767s, and are a seperate category. We have 21 of them (I believe?), and they are very senior. But........you seem to forget about them, a lot... They aint premium, I guess...


Bye Bye--General Lee

Nope, didn't forget about them. You have 21 of them, and they seat fewer PAX than our 330's. So you have 21 + 10 777's = 31. NWA has 32 330's + 30 747's = 62. Of course, DAL has 59 767-300ER's, but they pay the same as the 757 and they hold fewer PAX than NWA 757-300's.

 

[General Lee]

Nope, didn't forget about them. You have 21 of them, and they seat fewer PAX than our 330's. So you have 21 + 10 777's = 31. NWA has 32 330's + 30 747's = 62. Of course, DAL has 59 767-300ER's, but they pay the same as the 757 and they hold fewer PAX than NWA 757-300's.

Fewer pax seats on the 764? We might have more business elite seats instead of coach seats more like it. Same with the 757-300. You actually are comparing the 757-300 to the 767-300ER? Come on now. How about cargo on the 767-300ERs? I guess that doesn't count for you guys. Why do our planes pay the same BTW? We brought the 757 pay UP TO the 767 pay. Also, I wouldn't be talking too much about pay here. Your pay stinks. Leave that out of your arguments.

The 764 is bigger than your A332, maybe not the A333. The A332 is about the same size as a 767-300ER. Don't forget to take away your cargo 742s (you saw PM I sent you, right?) too. I hope you guys use these arguments in the arbitration. Hopefully laughter will not break out in the hearings. Really DTW, I think you too know your arguments are ridiculous. "Super duper Premium" widebody service. Riiiiiight. We'll all laugh about this someday I am sure.


Here is a great quote from FDJ2 about this SLI process, that of course, I agree with. I think it really outlines it all well:


"The fallacy of a DOH integration is that it does not balance the equities, as ALPA merger policy demands, that each pilot group brings to the merger. The date of hire argument is equivalent to claiming that a Euro and a Peso have equal value if they were minted on the same day. They don't. What matters is what a Euro, or a Peso can buy. Similarly, what day your seniority was minted doesn't matter, what matters is what your seniority can buy. Can it buy you a DC-9 left seat, or a 757 left seat?"


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Over the beer that you buy right General?

 

[General Lee]

Over the beer that you buy right General?

You betcha! Wait, are we talking about the first two rounds at McDonalds, or the last 3 at a "normal" restaurant?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[DTW320]

Fewer pax seats on the 764?Yup...298 on NWA vs 285 on your 764.We might have more business elite seats instead of coach seats more like it.Your 764 has 2 more biz class seats than our 330 Same with the 757-300. You actually are comparing the 757-300 to the 767-300ER?Yup....when it seats 10 more pax than your "widebody" does. 224 vs 214 on your ER. 757-300 has 2 first class seats and pays the same as the 767ER Come on now. How about cargo on the 767-300ERs?How about it? The 330 can carry 30,000 lbs of cargo. Are you comparing DAL's cargo capacity to NWA's? Really?Besides, I heard here that there's no money in freight, so it must be true. I guess that doesn't count for you guys. Why do our planes pay the same BTW? We brought the 757 pay UP TO the 767 pay. Also, I wouldn't be talking too much about pay here. Your pay stinks.Your pension stinks. In about a month our pay is equal. Why are we discussing what NWA pilots will make in Oct.? Leave that out of your arguments. Ummm...I did....until you brought it up.

The 764 is bigger than your A332, maybe not the A333.No maybe about it. The A333 seats more than your 764 and we have the same # of them (just A333's....not counting A332's)as you have total 764's, not even counting the fact that some (don't know how many)of your 764's are configured for 246 pax. The A332 is about the same size as a 767-300ER.NWA A332's seat 243 vs 214 on your 76ER. Since you insist on a dick measuring contest, how does the 764 or the 777 compare to the 744? HINT: the 744 seats 50% more than the 777.....and we have more of them than you have 777's.Don't forget to take away your cargo 742s (you saw PM I sent you, right?) too. I'll take em away when I see them leave, not when a mid level DL manager gives, by his own admission, his OPINION that they won't be kept, with no time frame mentioned.But whatever, take em away....that still leaves NWA with 42 a/c bigger than your 764's and 16 that are 50% bigger than your biggest a/c, of which you have 10.....remember, YOU brought up the 764....not me.I hope you guys use these arguments in the arbitration. Hopefully laughter will not break out in the hearings. Really DTW, I think you too know your arguments are ridiculous.Why? Refute my numbers. "Super duper Premium" widebody service.I agree, the superlatives being thrown around are comical.....but the facts about the A/C are spot on. Riiiiiight. We'll all laugh about this someday I am sure.

Uh oh....I see, once again, I have triggered a Talking Point nerve.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Whether they are talking points or not, they have validity in this discussion.

 

[FDJ2]

Nope, didn't forget about them. You have 21 of them, and they seat fewer PAX than our 330's. So you have 21 + 10 777's = 31. NWA has 32 330's + 30 747's = 62. Of course, DAL has 59 767-300ER's, but they pay the same as the 757 and they hold fewer PAX than NWA 757-300's.

You obviously then support the idea that the DC-9s should be stapled to the bottom because not only are they the oldest and smallest, but the least paying piece of equipment on the property.

 

[DTW320]

You obviously then support the idea that the DC-9s should be stapled to the bottom because not only are they the oldest and smallest, but the least paying piece of equipment on the property.

I said nothing about the SLI process. I was educating Generally on the facts of your 764 vs NWA's A330's (and 747's). But since you bring it up, is it your position that age of aircraft flown should determine seniority? Fascinating. As for size, how many seats does your 737-700 have? Is it smaller than many NWA DC-9's?

You're really hooked on the whole idea of a "staple" aren't you?

 

[FDJ2]

But since you bring it up, is it your position that age of aircraft flown should determine seniority? Fascinating.

Richard Bloch's mentioned it in the past. You have heard of him haven't you?

As for size, how many seats does your 737-700 have? Is it smaller than many NWA DC-9's?

It's certified for more passengers than a DC-9, can fly them significantly further and pays significantly more.

You're really hooked on the whole idea of a "staple" aren't you?

Stapling is appropriate when you bring a fleet type that is significantly older, smaller, with significantly less range and less pay than anything in the combined fleet. Particularly when the MEC that brings that fleet type also admits that it's replacement aircraft will be an even smaller aircraft that pays even less.

 

[General Lee]

Fewer pax seats on the 764?Yup...298 on NWA vs 285 on your 764. Is that for the A330-200 or A330-300? You have 2 types, and they aren't the same size. Your A332 is the size of a 767-300ER---I see them all of the time in AMS and CDG.We might have more business elite seats instead of coach seats more like it.Your 764 has 2 more biz class seats than our 330. Again, which size plane. Same with the 757-300. You actually are comparing the 757-300 to the 767-300ER?Yup....when it seats 10 more pax than your "widebody" does. 224 vs 214 on your ER. 757-300 has 2 first class seats and pays the same as the 767ER And, you are honestly comparing your 757-300 to our 767-300ER? Really? A single aisle long uncomfortable plane to our double aisle true widebody that can carry a lot more cargo and will be doing Intra Asia soon for just that reason? Should we start comparing "range" too?Come on now. How about cargo on the 767-300ERs?How about it? The 330 can carry 30,000 lbs of cargo. Are you comparing DAL's cargo capacity to NWA's? Really?Besides, I heard here that there's no money in freight, so it must be true. It depends on the plane I guess. Your 742s are not good, according to one of our VPs that you read in the PM I sent you. He will be making the call, and you saw his answer. The 747-200 is not a good plane according to the guy who will be deciding along with RA. I guess that doesn't count for you guys. Why do our planes pay the same BTW? We brought the 757 pay UP TO the 767 pay. Also, I wouldn't be talking too much about pay here. Your pay stinks.Your pension stinks. In about a month our pay is equal. Why are we discussing what NWA pilots will make in Oct.? We lost our pension, which is another reason we should get relative seniority or better. You dumped most of your rules and pay to keep that pension of yours, and that helps with our argument about having pilots who generally are younger than yours. Your old pilot argument saying they are older, which means DOH should be implemented just doesn't work when you are left with a pension, yet get our pay scales and work rules (like the manning rules).Leave that out of your arguments. Ummm...I did....until you brought it up. I think the arbitrators will look at it.

The 764 is bigger than your A332, maybe not the A333.No maybe about it. The A333 seats more than your 764 and we have the same # of them (just A333's....not counting A332's)as you have total 764's, not even counting the fact that some (don't know how many)of your 764's are configured for 246 pax. Well there you go, you finally admit the A332 is smaller than the 764. Your NWALPA guys won't even call it "premium"---yeah, right.The A332 is about the same size as a 767-300ER.NWA A332's seat 243 vs 214 on your 76ER. Since you insist on a dick measuring contest, how does the 764 or the 777 compare to the 744? HINT: the 744 seats 50% more than the 777.....and we have more of them than you have 777's. Well, it paid less than the 764, which really suks.Don't forget to take away your cargo 742s (you saw PM I sent you, right?) too. I'll take em away when I see them leave, not when a mid level DL manager gives, by his own admission, his OPINION that they won't be kept, with no time frame mentioned.But whatever, take em away....that still leaves NWA with 42 a/c bigger than your 764's and 16 that are 50% bigger than your biggest a/c, of which you have 10.....remember, YOU brought up the 764....not me. Call him up, I am sure he will put you in your place. It was an open forum, and you saw what he said and when he said it.I hope you guys use these arguments in the arbitration. Hopefully laughter will not break out in the hearings. Really DTW, I think you too know your arguments are ridiculous.Why? Refute my numbers. "Super duper Premium" widebody service.I agree, the superlatives being thrown around are comical.....but the facts about the A/C are spot on. Well, looking at what happened to USAir East when they request DOH, I don't think you will get close to that, and it will be closer to what USAir ended up with. DOH was a silly request, kinda like us asking for a staple. Riiiiiight. We'll all laugh about this someday I am sure.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I said nothing about the SLI process. I was educating Generally on the facts of your 764 vs NWA's A330's (and 747's). But since you bring it up, is it your position that age of aircraft flown should determine seniority? Fascinating. As for size, how many seats does your 737-700 have? Is it smaller than many NWA DC-9's?

You're really hooked on the whole idea of a "staple" aren't you?

We have 4 total right now, and they are blended in with the 737-800 category, just like your A319s are blended in with your A320s. And, our 737s pay a lot more than your A320s---even after the joint contract.

Hey, what about those 9 A319s that will have 54 seats doing the NBA and NHL charters? They are being configured exclusively for those charters, year round. Should they be paid the least of any of our planes, including the DC9s, thanks to the number of seats?

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[jetflier]

Uh oh....I see, once again, I have triggered a Talking Point nerve.

Just for your viewing pleasure,...the A330 can fit two ld3 containers, side by sideor a full sized freight pallet, the 767 can not, its too small.....that's a problem for the DAL General......it's not wide enough

 

[General Lee]

Just for your viewing pleasure,...the A330 can fit two ld3 containers, side by sideor a full sized freight pallet, the 767 can not, its too small.....that's a problem for the DAL General......it's not wide enough

We used to fly the 767ER to Mumbai from FRA (before it went to CDG, now a nonstop 777 to JFK, and then ATL eventually), and the main reason we were doing it was cargo. We paid the bills with cargo alone(back then, today the market is somewhat different I guess, although our 777s carry a lot from ATL to Shanghai). Then our marketing chief (who is gone now), decided to pull the plug on the BOM--FRA route, even though we had guaranteed profit. It made no sense, and made some people angry. But, that 767ER can carry a lot of cargo, and we do load up containers. That is why they will be replacing your intra Asia 757s soon at NRT. Your 742s, while a great freighter in it's day, probably doesn't do it now compared to 744s or even 777Fs (Air France is getting some), and that is why the "rumors" of their demise seem to be out there in mass.

And someone told me the problem was it was too long and couldn't fit through the door. (we're talking about containers on the 767ER, right?)


Bye Bye--General Lee