I'm done. (NWA/DAL)

[DTW320]

Fewer pax seats on the 764?Yup...298 on NWA vs 285 on your 764. Is that for the A330-200 or A330-300? You have 2 types, and they aren't the same size. Your A332 is the size of a 767-300ER---I see them all of the time in AMS and CDG.298 seats on the 330-300....of which we have the same number as you have 764's....We might have more business elite seats instead of coach seats more like it.Your 764 has 2 more biz class seats than our 330. Again, which size plane. Same with the 757-300. You actually are comparing the 757-300 to the 767-300ER?Yup....when it seats 10 more pax than your "widebody" does. 224 vs 214 on your ER. 757-300 has 2 first class seats and pays the same as the 767ER And, you are honestly comparing your 757-300 to our 767-300ER? Really? A single aisle long uncomfortable plane to our double aisle true widebody that can carry a lot more cargo and will be doing Intra Asia soon for just that reason? Should we start comparing "range" too?757-300 = more seats and the same pay as your old 76ER's.Come on now. How about cargo on the 767-300ERs?How about it? The 330 can carry 30,000 lbs of cargo. Are you comparing DAL's cargo capacity to NWA's? Really?Besides, I heard here that there's no money in freight, so it must be true. It depends on the plane I guess. Your 742s are not good, according to one of our VPs that you read in the PM I sent you. You mean the PM where the VP stressed that it was only his opinion and that higher ups would be making the call.....NOT HIM?He will be making the call, and you saw his answer. I saw what he himself called "His Opinion Only".The 747-200 is not a good plane according to the guy who will be deciding along with RA. I guess that doesn't count for you guys. Why do our planes pay the same BTW? We brought the 757 pay UP TO the 767 pay. Also, I wouldn't be talking too much about pay here. Your pay stinks.Your pension stinks. In about a month our pay is equal. Why are we discussing what NWA pilots will make in Oct.?We lost our pension, which is another reason we should get relative seniority or better. You dumped most of your rules and pay to keep that pension of yours, and that helps with our argument about having pilots who generally are younger than yours. Your old pilot argument saying they are older, which means DOH should be implemented just doesn't work when you are left with a pension, yet get our pay scales and work rules (like the manning rules).It was a JPWA......Joint. We didn't "get your stuff, WE BOTH negotiated a new WA. I'll concede some seniority for the Pension when RA signs a promissory note saying it will NEVER be taken away in the future.Without that, it's just a promise that can be taken away in a future BK....after Seniority is set in stone for the rest of a pilot's career.Arbitrators will agree.Leave that out of your arguments. Ummm...I did....until you brought it up.I think the arbitrators will look at it.

The 764 is bigger than your A332, maybe not the A333.No maybe about it. The A333 seats more than your 764 and we have the same # of them (just A333's....not counting A332's)as you have total 764's, not even counting the fact that some (don't know how many)of your 764's are configured for 246 pax. Well there you go, you finally admit the A332 is smaller than the 764. Your NWALPA guys won't even call it "premium"---yeah, right.Your hilarious.....and apparently pretty dim. AGAIN, we have the same number of larger A330's as DAL has TOTAL 764's.THAT doesn't even factor in the fact that some of your 21 764's seat 246.The A332 is about the same size as a 767-300ER.It's bigger ------->NWA A332's seat 243 vs 214 on your 76ER. Since you insist on a dick measuring contest, how does the 764 or the 777 compare to the 744? HINT: the 744 seats 50% more than the 777.....and we have more of them than you have 777's. Well, it paid less than the 764, which really suks.It's paid the same as your 777. JPWA....have you heard about that?Don't forget to take away your cargo 742s (you saw PM I sent you, right?) too. I'll take em away when I see them leave, not when a mid level DL manager gives, by his own admission, his OPINION that they won't be kept, with no time frame mentioned.But whatever, take em away....that still leaves NWA with 42 a/c bigger than your 764's and 16 that are 50% bigger than your biggest a/c, of which you have 10.....remember, YOU brought up the 764....not me. Call him up, I am sure he will put you in your place.With his OPINION? HAHAHAHAHA It was an open forum, and you saw what he said and when he said it.Yes I did....you posted it but apparently didn't read it!I hope you guys use these arguments in the arbitration. Hopefully laughter will not break out in the hearings. Really DTW, I think you too know your arguments are ridiculous.Why? Refute my numbers. "Super duper Premium" widebody service.I agree, the superlatives being thrown around are comical.....but the facts about the A/C are spot on. Well, looking at what happened to USAir East when they request DOH, I don't think you will get close to that, and it will be closer to what USAir ended up with. DOH was a silly request, kinda like us asking for a staple. Riiiiiight. We'll all laugh about this someday I am sure.


Bye Bye--General Lee

More Talking Points(TM)

 

[DTW320]

Stapling is appropriate when you bring a fleet type that is significantly older, smaller, with significantly less range and less pay than anything in the combined fleet. Particularly when the MEC that brings that fleet type also admits that it's replacement aircraft will be an even smaller aircraft that pays even less.

What replacement a/c? Are you referring to something that has not even been ordered yet and does not appear in any business plan? That'll carry a lot of weight.

As for size, how many seats does your 737-700 have? Is it smaller than many NWA DC-9's?

It's certified for more passengers than a DC-9, can fly them significantly further and pays significantly more.

You said what mattered was size. Yours seat 124 with less first class seats than any DC9. Our -50's seat 125 with 16 F/C.

 

[General Lee]

More Talking Points(TM)

Your "who has more seats" argument doesn't work, since we could say those charter A319s (9 of them)have only 54 seats, and they should be paid less than the DC9s. The DC9s are sticking around and have the fewest seats, so all of those pilots or the equivalent should be put on the bottom, along with the number of pilots who work in ANC (about 350). If you don't think our VP that stated the 742s are likely gone is "connected" to the top, then you are wrong. I have been told more than once by people "in the know" that we are very likely ditching the 742s and the cargo ops sooner than later, and we want to keep the NRT slots as a result, and throw more mainline planes there--primarily 767ERs. Your A330s based at SEA will get to go to JFK and do lovely Amman, Tel Aviv, and Cairo. That should be a good trade. I am sure that is in the know by your MEC and mine, and the arbitrators.

Regardless, it will be interesting to see what happens, and pinning your hopes on a position that USAir East also had and lost, is up to you. Take care.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[DTW320]

Your "who has more seats" argument doesn't work, Well, it's not an argument, it's a simple statement of fact in response to your question: "Fewer pax seats on the 764?" since we could say those charter A319s (9 of them)have only 54 seats, and they should be paid less than the DC9s.Bad logic there...the charter birds are not a seperate category or bid....your 764's are. Plus I didn't say that your 764's should be paid less than A330. BTW, the NBA 10 yr contract will make more $ (in pure profit)for the new DAL than just about anything else in the entire operation. The DC9s are sticking around and have the fewest seats,Your 737-700's have fewer seats than half of the DC-9's so all of those pilots or the equivalent should be put on the bottom,Wait, Wait, Wait....you JUST said that my "who has more seats" argument doesn't work!Yet, it's what your using to justify STAPLING NWA DC9 pilots to the bottom of your list!!! along with the number of pilots who work in ANC (about 350)We currently have exactly 275 pilots, including S/O's, based in ANC. If you don't think our VP that stated the 742s are likely gone is "connected" to the top, then you are wrong.I said nothing about his connections....I said that even he made it very clear that this was his personal opinion only and that higher ups would be making the decisions. Besides, the 742's sure aren't going away prior to SLI or DCC and our MAC charters are about the most profitable single thing at NWA. I have been told more than once by people "in the know" that we are very likely ditching the 742s and the cargo ops sooner than later, and we want to keep the NRT slots as a result, and throw more mainline planes there--primarily 767ERs. Your A330s based at SEA will get to go to JFK and do lovely Amman, Tel Aviv, and Cairo. That should be a good trade. I am sure that is in the know by your MEC and mine, and the arbitrators.

Regardless, it will be interesting to see what happens, and pinning your hopes on a position that USAir East also had and lost, is up to you. USAir wanted DOH with Conditions and Restrictions? NWA/DAL is an identical merger as AWA/US? Take care.


Bye Bye--General Lee

FOCUS: This whole exchange started with you asking why we "seem to forget about" your 764's. I provided FACTS about our larger and greater number of A330's/747's. That's it.

 

[NuGuy]

More Talking Points(TM)

LOL....

New and improved "DALPA" Talking Points(tm)....

Got the merger blues? Sitting reserve in Yonkers or Kew Gardens got ya down?

Pop one in, and coast on wave of fantasy! Feeling guilty? Don't worry, they're %100 fact free!

Nu

 

[General Lee]

FOCUS: This whole exchange started with you asking why we "seem to forget about" your 764's. I provided FACTS about our larger and greater number of A330's/747's. That's it.

No, the DAL/NWA merger is not exactly like the US/AWA merger. But, it has similarities, like you guys shooting for the moon with DOH. Crazy. And, there are crazy insinuations, like some of your widebody flying is "Super Premium." You down playing our 767-300ERs is another lunacy. Yes, our 757s are paid the same, but it never did until our 777 payrate negotiations in 1999, when we FORCED the company to increase all of our wages or we wouldn't fly the 777s they had coming. We just raised the 737-700 pay rates to match the 737-800 rates in our last LOA too. Same deal there. As far as the VP talking about the 742s going away, he really can't say officially that they are going away, since we haven't merged with you yet and the Justice Department still hasn't officially ruled. But, I think EVERYONE knows what will happen, and that now includes the arbitrators. Someone stated that the 742s are not in the merged company's future fleet plan. They will be with us for part of 09 probabaly (hence the pay rate), but that is primarily to keep the NRT slots until we do throw other pax planes on them. Just like half of the DC9-30 fleet leaving (next month or a few months from now)---that is known as a plane leaving the fleet---and career expectations have to be reflected if there is NO current replacement---same in the case of the 742. That is the reason for the bottom 400 all NWA. Those planes are scheduled to leave with no replacements in the very near future. We also added fences to our proposal, to make sure your greenbooks who always wanted to fly a 744 but could not due to lack of retirements or displacement, could now do it thanks to our manning formula for flights over 12 hours. Heck, now those greenbooks can taxi the plane too, since they are likely more senior to the junior redbooks who snuck in before the fence was up. That sure was nice of us.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

LOL....

New and improved "DALPA" Talking Points(tm)....

Got the merger blues? Sitting reserve in Yonkers or Kew Gardens got ya down?

Pop one in, and coast on wave of fantasy! Feeling guilty? Don't worry, they're %100 fact free!

Nu

DOH. Wow, that's exactly what USAir East asked for. How did they do? Talk about a wave of fantasy. And you bring up our "talking points". Hmm. Like a memo? Or like your 11 page opener to the arbitrators? You know, the one that pretty much stated: "We are older, DOH, 787s, Super Premium Unleaded widebodies, we bring in "da money" and DL is broke... etc..." Talk about talking points.....Bravo! And your lawyer sure does love the DC9! We'll see if RA still does, he seems to have an affinity now for MD90s...


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[jetflier]

We used to fly the 767ER to Mumbai from FRA (before it went to CDG, now a nonstop 777 to JFK, and then ATL eventually), and the main reason we were doing it was cargo. We paid the bills with cargo alone(back then, today the market is somewhat different I guess, although our 777s carry a lot from ATL to Shanghai). Then our marketing chief (who is gone now), decided to pull the plug on the BOM--FRA route, even though we had guaranteed profit. It made no sense, and made some people angry. But, that 767ER can carry a lot of cargo, and we do load up containers. That is why they will be replacing your intra Asia 757s soon at NRT. Your 742s, while a great freighter in it's day, probably doesn't do it now compared to 744s or even 777Fs (Air France is getting some), and that is why the "rumors" of their demise seem to be out there in mass.

And someone told me the problem was it was too long and couldn't fit through the door. (we're talking about containers on the 767ER, right?)


Bye Bye--General Lee

General,

I think it would be a great idea to place 767 in the interport operation to allow more freight to be carried than the 757's there.

Although the 767 can certainly carry more freight than the 757, they can in no possible way carry the large and oversized freight that the 747F can hoist.
After flying that bird, I can tell you that we used to fill the interior main deck with freight that went up to the ceiling. nearly 20 feet. Everything from tractors, to powerplant generators and more have been on board our 747F.

 

[jetflier]

What replacement a/c? Are you referring to something that has not even been ordered yet and does not appear in any business plan? That'll carry a lot of weight.

You said what mattered was size. Yours seat 124 with less first class seats than any DC9. Our -50's seat 125 with 16 F/C.

The DC9 is certified up to 139 Series 30: Fuselage of the Series 30 DC-9, actually second developed, is nearly 15 feet longer than the Series 10, at 119.3 feet (36.3 m), providing seats for up to115 passengers and cargo space to 895 cubic feet (25.3 m3). Series 30 wingspan was increased to 93.3 feet (28.4 m), and a high-lift wing system of leading edge slats gives the Series 30 excellent short-field performance. The first of the type began airline service in February 1967.
Most of the Series 30s are powered by either JT8D-7 or JT8D-9 engines. Others are equipped with JT8D-11 or the JT8D-15, with 15,500 pounds of thrust. The Series 30 is the most widely used member of the DC-9 family, accounting for approximately 60 percent of the entire fleet.
Series 40: To again meet airline demands for a DC-9 with more capacity, the Series 40 was developed with a fuselage length of 125.6 feet (38.3 m). Seating is available for up to 125 passengers, 10 more than the popular Series 30s. Below-floor cargo space totals 1,019 cubic feet (28.8 m3). The Series 40 uses the same wing as the Series 30. Series 40 engines are JT8D-9s, JT8D-11s or JT8D-15s. The model entered service in March 1968.
Series 50: The fifth and largest DC-9 version is extended to 133.6 feet (40.7 m) long, permitting installation of five more rows of seats than the Series 30. Maximum passenger capacity is up to 139, with cargo capacity increased similarly. Wingspan is the same as for the Series 30. Engines are either JT8D-15s or JT8D-17s, which are rated at 16,000 pounds. Airline operations with the Series 50 began in August 1975.
passengers:

 

[jetflier]

More Talking Points(TM)

Although we, (I voted no) did pass the pos contract that kept our pensions, many NWA pilots will not even get beer money at retirement.

At the top seniority, pilots will get a lump sum of the excess over the TEFLA limits of about 250k, and then rake in 13000 per month...

The rest of us are on a declining amount based on your seniority with the most junior getting less than 100 per month!

After being hired in early 1995, My Wife and I will be raking in about 3000 per month in 2022.



I think my social security will be worth more.

It would have been better if we canceled the pension and received a large settlement check similar to DAL.