I'm done. (NWA/DAL)

[DTW320]

They are. It is all quite funny, but as stated FDJ2 has a point.
Two to two and a half years max on those 40 and 50 series 9's. (Assuming the business plan does not change again)

Ahhhhh.....So......if the "business plan" DOES change (of course, I know that NOTHING changes in the airline business in 2 1/2 years) you would be willing to "redo" the SLI right?Ya know, since you want to base the SLI on future plans and all. That would also apply to changes in the DAL fleet plan within 2 1/2 years of DCC right?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

No because they are still the smallest gauge a/c. And if we had the smallest, I would expect our guys to be on the bottom as well.

There are going to be changes, but not the ones you are thinking of.

 

[General Lee]

Ahhhhh.....So......if the "business plan" DOES change (of course, I know that NOTHING changes in the airline business in 2 1/2 years) you would be willing to "redo" the SLI right?Ya know, since you want to base the SLI on future plans and all. That would also apply to changes in the DAL fleet plan within 2 1/2 years of DCC right?

Wait, is this the same thing as your guys wanting a "dynamic" list that would allow your guys to leapfrog over DAL pilots when your upcoming NWA pilots retire, even though we also have a large chunk of retirements coming up about 5 years later? Same thing? A redo of the SLI? Kinda crazy.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[DTW320]

No because they are still the smallest gauge a/c. And if we had the smallest, I would expect our guys to be on the bottom as well.

There are going to be changes, but not the ones you are thinking of.

So which is it? The reason that DC-9 pilots should be STAPLED, not integrated, in the SLI? Is it because of gauge or because they are "going away"(well....maybe....ya know....in 2 1/2 years or so....unless things change, of course)? Using your logic, why doesn't your proposal have entire blocks of NWA stapled into various parts of the list based on gauge? It's OK to staple on the bottom but not on the top based on gauge? What's the "gauge" of the 744(with 451 pilot's) vs the 777?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

It is both and you know it. They are going away sooner rather than later. They are also the smallest airframe.
It is not only passengers but the capabilities of the airframe. The 777 and 744 perform the same roll. The 9 and 88 do not. I do not see any 9's going from ATL to SJU or ELP any time soon. (It does not have the capabilities)

 

[DTW320]

It is both and you know it. They are going away sooner rather than later. They are also the smallest airframe.
It is not only passengers but the capabilities of the airframe. The 777 and 744 perform the same roll. The 9 and 88 do not. I do not see any 9's going from ATL to SJU or ELP any time soon. (It does not have the capabilities)

OK, Both....First of those is gauge. You say the DC-9 pilots should be STAPLED due to gauge, yet DAL MD88 pilots are not STAPLED below 320 or 757 pilots...they are integrated. What a double standard! Your staple logic only makes sense if you also staple everyone else, in blocks, into the combined list based on guage.

Second is because they are going away. We are to sentence hundreds of NWA pilots to the bottom of the list, junior to hundreds of DAL pilots hired up to 10 years later, based on an assumption/guess, that can't be supported by any official comment? (in fact, the only public comments on the subject by DAL execs say just the opposite).

Wow. Very reasonable and fair logic there.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Wow, go take your logic to your MEC.

I cannot wait to hear your side of it next week.
Quit arguing this, you or I cannot change the outcome.
Maybe Puff and FDJ2 will feel like spatting with you. I have better things to do with my time. Like taking a Nap!

 

[DTW320]

Wow, go take your logic to your MEC.

I cannot wait to hear your side of it next week.
Quit arguing this, you or I cannot change the outcome.
Maybe Puff and FDJ2 will feel like spatting with you. I have better things to do with my time. Like talking a Nap!

Hey, I agree 100%. I'm tired of all of it too, to be honest. It's out of our hands, we each have our strong feelings about it, but guess what....neither is going to change the other's position. Soon enough this will be behind us and we can concentrate on snubbing our collective noses at other legacies that attempt to challenge us in our airline world domination cage match!:angryfire

Have a good nap.....but if you're talking through it, you're too stressed out.

Later

 

[ACL65PILOT]

See that is my point. Time for a nap.:0

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Yeah, I am done debating this until I see your proposal. Maybe even then I will not want to discuss it.
I just would like it behind us. There are lots of plans that need this to be finished for them to be come a reality.

 

[whatitdoing?]

He's not going to take a nap. He'll post in a few minutes and then a few more, then some more. Dude has absolutely no life. Sad....

 

[NuGuy]

Ahhhhh.....So......if the "business plan" DOES change (of course, I know that NOTHING changes in the airline business in 2 1/2 years) you would be willing to "redo" the SLI right?Ya know, since you want to base the SLI on future plans and all. That would also apply to changes in the DAL fleet plan within 2 1/2 years of DCC right?

Heyas DTW,

This is EXACTLY why SLIs are never based on what the company MIGHT do after the merger.

1) DAL has no legal standing to adjust fleet deposition prior to closing the deal.

2) Many Deltoids on this very forum refuse to consider the 787...why? Because "it's not here yet...it only MIGHT show up...its a paper airplane"...despite the fact that Boeing has never not delivered. Using that same logic, there is no reason to believe anything that isn't already set in stone. As of right now, the fleet plan for NWA is the same as it was in March, per NWA MANAGMENT, who are the only people, as of yet, that have any legal standing to make such plans. Anything else is speculation.

3) Believing anything that comes out of magament as to what they MIGHT do is ridiculous. Remember RA said that he WASN'T there to do a merger?

4) The SLI will be based on KNOWN quantities based on fleet compositions as of the date of constructive notification (March). Not what "might" happen at some nebulous date in the future and subject to change at a moments notice (or drop in oil), nor based on some DAL management flunky's random musings.

Nu

 

[General Lee]

Heyas DTW,

This is EXACTLY why SLIs are never based on what the company MIGHT do after the merger.

1) DAL has no legal standing to adjust fleet deposition prior to closing the deal.

2) Many Deltoids on this very forum refuse to consider the 787...why? Because "it's not here yet...it only MIGHT show up...its a paper airplane"...despite the fact that Boeing has never not delivered. Using that same logic, there is no reason to believe anything that isn't already set in stone. As of right now, the fleet plan for NWA is the same as it was in March, per NWA MANAGMENT, who are the only people, as of yet, that have any legal standing to make such plans. Anything else is speculation.

3) Believing anything that comes out of magament as to what they MIGHT do is ridiculous. Remember RA said that he WASN'T there to do a merger?

4) The SLI will be based on KNOWN quantities based on fleet compositions as of the date of constructive notification (March). Not what "might" happen at some nebulous date in the future and subject to change at a moments notice (or drop in oil), nor based on some DAL management flunky's random musings.

Nu

Do you really think he will come out in public and say what he will (cuts) before the Justice Department rules on it? His plans, though, could be told to arbitrators, or even Steenland's plans (stating the Dc9-40/50s could stay for a couple more years ONLY, while -30s go bye bye soon...) could be used. What about the 10 757s that just left for Fedex? What about the multiple A319s too? We are losing some planes too, but we are also adding some which gives us a gain of fleet numbers , soon. (yes, there is a Boeing strike, but the 787s will come 2 years AFTER the strike ends) Let's look at the current fleet plans and decide from there, ok? I think that would be good, and I am sure our lawyers are doing just that. I don't know exactly what our lawyers are going to say about the 742s, but you can guarantee they will bring them up, and we all know the 742s aren't going to be around much longer. Let's wait for the testimony.

As far as our proposal goes, we threw relative seniority in there after the number of pilots that account for planes leaving your fleet, which is fair. Since USAir got relative seniority after requesting DOH, I have a feeling it will look similar.

Your "constructive notification" statement is unclear, since the airline industry has been changing a lot every day due to high gas and the economy. Very unlikely they will bring it back to "March." How about NOW? Yeah. The arbitrators will want to know what is happening NOW---and those DC9-30s aren't going to be around much longer, along with the 742s. Why don't you just base it off of the FIRST time we tried to merge with you too? Riiight. And, your lawyer sure does LOVE that DC9. Hillarious. And, as DTW320 noted too, the "Super Premium Widebody service" statement was even noted by the arbitrators as strange, asking our lawyer if he had ever heard of that. Not a good first impression.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Superpilot92]

OK, Both....First of those is gauge. You say the DC-9 pilots should be STAPLED due to gauge, yet DAL MD88 pilots are not STAPLED below 320 or 757 pilots...they are integrated. What a double standard! Your staple logic only makes sense if you also staple everyone else, in blocks, into the combined list based on guage.

Second is because they are going away. We are to sentence hundreds of NWA pilots to the bottom of the list, junior to hundreds of DAL pilots hired up to 10 years later, based on an assumption/guess, that can't be supported by any official comment? (in fact, the only public comments on the subject by DAL execs say just the opposite).

Wow. Very reasonable and fair logic there.

Exactly!! Its nothing more than a seniority grab. This week ought to make things a wee bit more interesting. I am looking forward to the middle of the road outcome. Its coming up quick. :beer:

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Let talk about when people think DCC will be.

 

[Occam's Razor]

1st week of November. Slid no more than a week, and only if a specific DOJ report takes much longer to complete.

What'd I win?

 

[General Lee]

Exactly!! Its nothing more than a seniority grab. This week ought to make things a wee bit more interesting. I am looking forward to the middle of the road outcome. Its coming up quick. :beer:

Middle of the road? Come on now. DOH is reaching for the Moon, and USAir East found that out. Maybe if we said "Staple them" we could come to the "middle of the road"---which looks a lot like relative seniority, after special items. (the DC9s are special, since they are on chopping block now---the -30s, not to mention the 742s we all KNOW are gone soon)

But hey, other than that, I can't wait until this is all over. Really.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

1st week of November. Slid no more than a week, and only if a specific DOJ report takes much longer to complete.

What'd I win?

Before the SLI? Hmmmmm. Interesting.....maybe.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ACL65PILOT]

You are dead on as always OCCAM. Looking for Nov 1st now. Get ready here it comes.

Just curious to see if anyone else knew that it moved.

 

[BOHICAgain]

1st week of November. Slid no more than a week, and only if a specific DOJ report takes much longer to complete.

What'd I win?

JFK reserve