How to get the union on property!

[Guitar rocker]

Navy to Civvy

Sadly it's your honorable background here as a distinguished serviceman that America is cashing in on.

"Death Before Dishonor", might be a battle cry of the Marines, but it applies to all branches of the US Military.

Somehow though you have not made the connection that your raises at Citation Shares were made to try and mirror our raises at Netjets after a well fought battle on the part of our union.

Many of your fellow airmen would ask us, "When are you guys getting your big contract, I really could use a raise?"

Some of us even found this inflammatory, but at least most CS/Flops and Flexjet already knew what we did, it was going to happen.

So how about doing some of the heavy lifting yourself there sailor?

Good post! I found it inflammatory when CS guys would ask when we were going to get our contract so they could get a raise too. But more disgusting than that is when the CS guys here turn that question around of theirs into "we got our raise because mgmt really likes us and we do a good job. We were going to get it regardless of your contract." Oh how quickly they forget! Lest we forget that Bogart also said,"I will never say thanks to an NJA pilot for my raise." They have traded in the word thankful and taken on ego instead.

 

[taloft]

[SIZE=-1]FUD is an abbreviation for Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt, a sales or marketing strategy of disseminating negative but vague or inaccurate information on a competitor's product. The term originated to describe misinformation tactics in the computer software industry and has since been used more broadly. [/SIZE]

 

[Humphreybogart]

[SIZE=-1]FUD is an abbreviation for Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt, a sales or marketing strategy of disseminating negative but vague or inaccurate information on a competitor's product. The term originated to describe misinformation tactics in the computer software industry and has since been used more broadly. [/SIZE]

Thanks, TA. I learned something. I knew I was missing out on something!

 

[Humphreybogart]

You continually refer to us as being frustrated with how great CS is as you say. I'm glad that "things are great at Shares". But it doesnt affect me one way or another. I could ask you why you have so bagged on our union??? I could also ask you why you and Trash imply that we are a "sweat shop" operation. You wont touch either one of these two questions and you run away from them like it's the end of the world.

Rocker, maybe the word "frustruated" is not a good word to use. I think you see us as "riding on NJ's coat tails" since our raise and I don't see it that way. Making it more clearly, the whole raise/union thing. What came first, the chicken or the egg scenario. I'm tired of talking about it as I am sure you are too. The whole fact of the matter is, we both received a nice raise, weather it was due to the union or not. Now can we debate something else?

I have been involved in different unions throughout the course of my life. It seemed the employment I had while being part of that union was always a battle for something. I am a very easy going person who doesn't need that type of added dramatics in my life. Being in a non-union environment is a breath of fresh air to me. So, I am not "bagging" on you're union, I am referring to all unions. Remember, it's just my opinion.

I can't speak for Trash, but I think the "sweatshop" term came from NJ's pre TA days and postings. I remember seeing that mentioned by what is assumed to be a NJ pilot.

 

[Humphreybogart]

For someone who professes to enjoy being part of a team, your post is awfully ego-centric, NtC. I do understand that you are happy with conditions at CS, but what about the pilots that don't have it that good? You say that you have options. What about those pilots who feel that they do not? It seems to me that those who have the most could afford to be generous with their encouragement and cheer on the pilots who have the guts to stand up for themselves. Can you not understand that raising standards across the industry shores up everyone's position? If I can't appeal to your generous nature, how about your selfish streak?

Hawkered, he's been to sea. Let's have NtC swap the deck--starting with his own post... We all know how badly red Kool-aid stains...lol

Navy has a great point, so why are you ragging on him? If you feel that you don't have it so good or you're not being treated fairly, it's simple...LEAVE. There are other jobs out there that you may be happier at. I don't think that Navy is being "ego-centric" at all.

This whole cool-aid thing is a big joke, you people don't know what it's like to work at a company that takes care of its people without us fighting for it. We are thought of as people at CS, not numbers. Hey Wife, maybe you should spend more time in the kitchen cleaning up after your husbands' messes, is the mop dry yet from wiping up all the crybaby tears. At CS, we have a very clean kitchen.

 

[Hawkered]

Obviously Mr Bogart, Citation Shares does not do a very good job of pilot recruitment.

Were you an abused child, or did your ol' man beat up on your mum to have such a low opinion of women.

You Sir, are a Human Resources disaster just waiting to happen!!

 

[Humphreybogart]

Obviously Mr Bogart, Citation Shares does not do a very good job of pilot recruitment.

Were you an abused child, or did your ol' man beat up on your mum to have such a low opinion of women.

You Sir, are a Human Resources disaster just waiting to happen!!

Can you explain yourself better? I have a wonderful opinion of women, just not NetJetWife, who puts her nose where it doesn't belong. She doesn't know a thing about us or our life at CS so what makes her an authority to talk about us? She may know NJ life from what her hubby tells her, so why doesn't she stick to that and stay out of our business?

Moderator reviewed.

 

[Pervis]

Bogart, stick to the porn sites. That way we don't have to hear you moan.

 

[netjetwife]

I'll make this simple, Bogart. Let's remove ALL company names. The point of my post to NtC (which apparently you missed) was that I believe the pilots who are enjoying good working conditions and fair pay should be willing to encourage others (who don't have it as well) in their efforts to acquire the new industry standard. In short, I dislike the "I got mine" attitude. I was hoping to open minds that have been closed to the idea of a union. Fine, it may not be needed at your company, but what about those pilots where it clearly is? Why can't you see it as a way to improve the lot of your fellow pilots in the frac industry? Why can't you support them in their fight?

I post here to show support for a cause I believe in. I find the pay and QOL at (most) frac companies to be far below the professional level pilots earn --and rightfully deserve. When I first joined this board, it was to voice my support for the NJ pilots who were standing up for their rights. I was told that NJ pilots were whiners and crybabies for complaining. I was told that all the frac pilots had it that bad. My response to them was to stand up for themselves and demand what they are owed. Now that some of those pilots are doing just that, I am happily supporting their cause. The issues are STILL the same. I could make the SAME posts now as a Flexwife, Optionswife, or Avantairwife that I first made as Netjetwife. I see my posts as a matter of personal integrity. I am keeping my word to those I encouraged to make a stand. It feels good to see them come around to the StrongUnion way of thinking.

Bogart, don't you know by now that those tacky comments about sending me back to the kitchen only make you look like a bigot and tell me that my posts are hitting a nerve with the anti-union crowd?

ALL FRACTIONAL PILOTS DESERVE PROFESSIONAL COMPENSATION

1108 IS RAISING THE INDUSTRY STANDARD--A COMPANY AT A TIME

 

[NavytoCivy]

Wow – I don’t know where to start. First of all, I can only speak for myself. Hence the I’s. I could do it in the third person, but I’d get confused quickly. Secondly, I do acknowledge that the NetJets contract could very well have influenced CS Management. But, I also acknowledge that OUR (great, now I’m self-conscious about saying “my” and “I”) management was monitoring the industry, saw the need to increase salary and did it. If their action was caused by the NJ pilots, then I thank you. At the same time, I thank Mgmt for acting and not waiting for the battle. Thirdly, and this is just silly but Miles brought it up as a point, if a man builds a company that in just a few short years competes with the biggest and best in the industry, he deserves a big house. I don’t begrudge him that. Regarding FUD…That’s just ridiculous, but I’m glad you mentioned it. It’s true I like things as they are. But it was not me who said, “I am telling you to enjoy it while it lasts, because realistically it will change for the worse…”, “It's nice when everyone knows everyone, but when it gets bigger, nobody is gonna be on the phone after you land saying,"great job today!"”, “"I want to be recognized for a good job" club will be long gone!””, “Sadly it's your honorable background here as a distinguished serviceman that America is cashing in on” (this one was rich!), “If such a club even exists, do you truly think that kinda club is going to last there when you grow”, “As you get bigger, nobody is going to know you if they stepped on you and nobody is going to care one way or another about how good a job you did”. These are beautiful examples of FUD by your own definition – “negative but vague or inaccurate information on a competitor's product” and FUD is a primary tool used by Union Reps.
NavytoCivy doesn’t dislike the union, he knows it has it’s place (in time), he just doesn’t think it’s necessary here. (NJW – I tried that in the third person for you) If the union does well for you, wherever you are, great – you found your happy place. We, I, us, me don’t need or want it. Come fly with us for a bit and see – we’re hiring!
There are my two posts/cents. I’m not going to post anymore. I truly wish you all happiness and success – except for the reps.

 

[WheresRocky]

The sound of heaven

I'll make this simple, Bogart. Let's remove ALL company names. The point of my post to NtC (which apparently you missed) was that I believe the pilots who are enjoying good working conditions and fair pay should be willing to encourage others (who don't have it as well) in their efforts to acquire the new industry standard. In short, I dislike the "I got mine" attitude. I was hoping to open minds that have been closed to the idea of a union. Fine, it may not be needed at your company, but

When I read these words, The skies parted and the sun shone through the mackeral clouds. Shafts of bright light shone around, then the sound of ANGELS... LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA in loud triumphant tones.

Hallelujah! ALAS: NetJetWife FINALLY GETS IT!

Perhaps she will also realize there is a power higher than her.

There is a way to success and prosperity that does not include her beloved Strong Union and her 1108.

Now, move your jihad out of here missy.

And take your thugs Hawkered and Guitar Rocker with you. (Funny how they are always praising each other's posts...a little cyber mutual masturb...oh, i wont go there.)

 

[XPGuy]

Then again, it MAY be needed at your company. Time will tell, and as I said already, what the company gives you today, without a union, they can take away tomorrow. Also, history has shown in aviation that when upgrades are dependent solely on management decision and not on seniority, that the system gets corrupt. Corruption leads to unhappy pilots. Unhappy pilots organize, and then a union enters the picture. You cannot argue with history.

Sure. This is where you say "well that wasn't our company". They all said that.

So, as I said before, congrats to the CS pilots. May you continue to ride high on the wave caused by Net Jets. May you NEVER need a Union. But don't turn a blind eye to history. And WHEN things start to deteriorate, you will always have the right to organize.

 

[Safetycheck]

Stop it

Then again, it MAY be needed at your company. Time will tell, and as I said already, what the company gives you today, without a union, they can take away tomorrow. Also, history has shown in aviation that when upgrades are dependent solely on management decision and not on seniority, that the system gets corrupt. Corruption leads to unhappy pilots. Unhappy pilots organize, and then a union enters the picture. You cannot argue with history.

Sure. This is where you say "well that wasn't our company". They all said that.

So, as I said before, congrats to the CS pilots. May you continue to ride high on the wave caused by Net Jets. May you NEVER need a Union. But don't turn a blind eye to history. And WHEN things start to deteriorate, you will always have the right to organize.

Forgive me for saying this, but please stop speaking out of your posterior.

Unhappy pilots organize? How about this: Unhappy pilots go somewhere else where they CAN be happier.

I cannot argue about history? You cannot argue with history. How many successful non-union companies have existed in US history?

You start with one little step and turn it into a GIANT leap with your statements. It is the union way with you and all your cronies. Union FUD. Union BS.

What the he// do you know about aviation history?

Typical crap. Nobody is buying it. Stop the verbal diarrhea!

 

[XPGuy]

Hmmm. Who's talking out of their posterior?


Is that how your family raised you? If you don't like your job, just walk away from it? That makes you a quitter. Fine.

There are leaders, and there are followers. You have proved which you are. If you don't like something in your work place, you don't have to "leave". You have the right to try to make your work place a better place.

If YOU want to quit, that's fine. I've never quit anything in my life. Sure, you can always vote with your feet. That should be a last resort.


To answer your question, how many successful non-union companies have existed in US History? What are you, 5 years old? What parameters are you setting for the question? EVER? Or post-industrial era where organized labor was a reality (late late 1800's and beyond)? What are you calling "a success"? Let me ask you a question. How many large aviation companies with large bodies of pilots have managed to stay successful, and without a union?

If you want to bring it to me, bring facts. I will gladly debate your aviation successful non-union shops with my successful union shops. But more to the point, this is the fractional industry. Shall we discuss success in OUR market, and compare union and non-union shops? I'm not interested in comparing apples to oranges.

As for nobody's buying it... try reading the entire thread, einstein. I think I've proved on more than one occasion my knowledge of this industry. What have you proven, besides your an ass and assault people, rather than try to have a decent conversation?

 

[Humphreybogart]

Hmmm. Who's talking out of their posterior?


Is that how your family raised you? If you don't like your job, just walk away from it? That makes you a quitter. Fine.

There are leaders, and there are followers. You have proved which you are. If you don't like something in your work place, you don't have to "leave". You have the right to try to make your work place a better place.

If YOU want to quit, that's fine. I've never quit anything in my life. Sure, you can always vote with your feet. That should be a last resort.


To answer your question, how many successful non-union companies have existed in US History? What are you, 5 years old? What parameters are you setting for the question? EVER? Or post-industrial era where organized labor was a reality (late late 1800's and beyond)? What are you calling "a success"? Let me ask you a question. How many large aviation companies with large bodies of pilots have managed to stay successful, and without a union?

If you want to bring it to me, bring facts. I will gladly debate your aviation successful non-union shops with my successful union shops. But more to the point, this is the fractional industry. Shall we discuss success in OUR market, and compare union and non-union shops? I'm not interested in comparing apples to oranges.

As for nobody's buying it... try reading the entire thread, einstein. I think I've proved on more than one occasion my knowledge of this industry. What have you proven, besides your an ass and assault people, rather than try to have a decent conversation?

Hey XP,
Man, was it hard to read your post with a straight face. Leaving a job you don't like makes you a quitter, huh? You never quit anything in your life? Boy are you above the world. What garbage are you trying to say? You keep talking about how everyone was raised. I notice you say nothing about your family because with you attitude they probably abandoned you somewhere along the road, just like Joe Dirt. Maybe that's the screen name you should use, because there is nothing but dirt comming from your mouth.
I was feeling sorry for you and your buds at FLOPS, but now I just feel sorry for them. You can fend for yourself, you don't know anything. Open you eyes for a change. You are totally incorrect on how you look at other peoples opinions. If things are that bad for you...quit.

 

[Guitar rocker]

When I read these words, The skies parted and the sun shone through the mackeral clouds. Shafts of bright light shone around, then the sound of ANGELS... LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA in loud triumphant tones.

Hallelujah! ALAS: NetJetWife FINALLY GETS IT!

Perhaps she will also realize there is a power higher than her.

There is a way to success and prosperity that does not include her beloved Strong Union and her 1108.

Now, move your jihad out of here missy.

And take your thugs Hawkered and Guitar Rocker with you. (Funny how they are always praising each other's posts...a little cyber mutual masturb...oh, i wont go there.)

Awwwwwwww, is someone here a little upset that he doesnt get any praise here for his posts??? Did we hit a nerve and it's made little Rocky pout??? Awwwwww, what a shame. Let me make something clear for you....NJwife can run circles around you when it comes to posts here. All you ever seem to post is junk, all we have to do is look at your post here and that says it all. You have a tendency to post old information here as well....your a day late and a dollar short much of the time. With that in mind, there is a reason why nobody commends you on a good post. Wheres Rocky hiding??? Hopefully way up in Labrador and he never makes it back to where a computer may be near.

 

[Guitar rocker]

Forgive me for saying this, but please stop speaking out of your posterior.

Unhappy pilots organize? How about this: Unhappy pilots go somewhere else where they CAN be happier.

I cannot argue about history? You cannot argue with history. How many successful non-union companies have existed in US history?

You start with one little step and turn it into a GIANT leap with your statements. It is the union way with you and all your cronies. Union FUD. Union BS.

What the he// do you know about aviation history?

Typical crap. Nobody is buying it. Stop the verbal diarrhea!

Safety Check, if an Eastern pilot read what you just wrote, they would be amazed. In the case of Eastern, those pilots organized so as to stop a tyrant. Sure it cost many their jobs, but it also stopped Frank and others alike from doing it again.......and lord knows they have tried. What the Eastern guys did was not just for themselves but for the industry and with that in mind, we should all have a great deal of respect for those who struck. But then again, I'll bet your the type that would have crossed that picket line or any line for that matter with your attitude here. Your in that little yellow book, arent you????

So an unhappy pilot should just up and leave??? Lets put it this way...sure, we were becoming increasingly unhappy over the course of the last 4 years, but now we are happy and much of the fractional and corporate industry has reaped the rewards from our fight. With that in mind, why should we have all quit??? We have made it better, havent we???

 

[Guitar rocker]

Hey XP,
Man, was it hard to read your post with a straight face. Leaving a job you don't like makes you a quitter, huh? You never quit anything in your life? Boy are you above the world. What garbage are you trying to say? You keep talking about how everyone was raised. I notice you say nothing about your family because with you attitude they probably abandoned you somewhere along the road, just like Joe Dirt. Maybe that's the screen name you should use, because there is nothing but dirt comming from your mouth.
I was feeling sorry for you and your buds at FLOPS, but now I just feel sorry for them. You can fend for yourself, you don't know anything. Open you eyes for a change. You are totally incorrect on how you look at other peoples opinions. If things are that bad for you...quit.

Bogart, XPguy is right. Why should we quit if we dont like something??? If there is a chance to improve upon something, why not work together in a team and do so? If everyone were to quit if they didnt quite like something (as you suggest), I think that UAL, DAL, NWA, CAL, FEDEX, UPS....to name a few...would have been gone years ago.

 

[Guitar rocker]

Wow – I don’t know where to start. First of all, I can only speak for myself. Hence the I’s. I could do it in the third person, but I’d get confused quickly. Secondly, I do acknowledge that the NetJets contract could very well have influenced CS Management. But, I also acknowledge that OUR (great, now I’m self-conscious about saying “my” and “I”) management was monitoring the industry, saw the need to increase salary and did it. If their action was caused by the NJ pilots, then I thank you. At the same time, I thank Mgmt for acting and not waiting for the battle. Thirdly, and this is just silly but Miles brought it up as a point, if a man builds a company that in just a few short years competes with the biggest and best in the industry, he deserves a big house. I don’t begrudge him that. Regarding FUD…That’s just ridiculous, but I’m glad you mentioned it. It’s true I like things as they are. But it was not me who said, “I am telling you to enjoy it while it lasts, because realistically it will change for the worse…”, “It's nice when everyone knows everyone, but when it gets bigger, nobody is gonna be on the phone after you land saying,"great job today!"”, “"I want to be recognized for a good job" club will be long gone!””, “Sadly it's your honorable background here as a distinguished serviceman that America is cashing in on” (this one was rich!), “If such a club even exists, do you truly think that kinda club is going to last there when you grow”, “As you get bigger, nobody is going to know you if they stepped on you and nobody is going to care one way or another about how good a job you did”. These are beautiful examples of FUD by your own definition – “negative but vague or inaccurate information on a competitor's product” and FUD is a primary tool used by Union Reps.
NavytoCivy doesn’t dislike the union, he knows it has it’s place (in time), he just doesn’t think it’s necessary here. (NJW – I tried that in the third person for you) If the union does well for you, wherever you are, great – you found your happy place. We, I, us, me don’t need or want it. Come fly with us for a bit and see – we’re hiring!
There are my two posts/cents. I’m not going to post anymore. I truly wish you all happiness and success – except for the reps.

Dont be a panzy and have a backbone for cryin out loud! I cant help but laugh with your "I want to be recognized for a good job club." You sound like a 3rd grader looking for support because you are insecure with whether you did a good job or not. Do you think that any major airline pilot gets a call from the busy day of a chief pilot saying, "Hey, great job there last night!" I dont think so. Be realistic for a change here............youve done a great job if you DONT hear from your supervisor!

 

[netjetwife]

When I read these words,
: NetJetWife FINALLY GETS IT!

Here's what I get---That some pilots are so selfish they refuse to think of the well-being of their counterparts in other frac companies, and that they take it upon themselves to speak for their fellow pilots at CS. Gotta burst your bubble, Rocky. You MISinterpreted my post to suit your own purpose. The manner of representation is a choice that must be left to the majority of pilots within a company. I, personally, cannot tell them if a union is needed. Nor do I believe that a few pilots posting here should make that call.


My questions still remain unanswered. Why can't all pilots who are satisfied encourage the efforts of those pilots who are not? Why do you refuse to cheer on your counterparts who are gearing up for the fight? Is their right to self-determination not as valid as your own? If you can recognize the positive impact made by the NJ pilots, why would you not wish to see more of the same? If CS pilots are pleased that NJ pilots raised the bar, why not encourage putting the supports under it that will keep it in place? I agree with the NJ pilots who say that those CS pilots posting here aren't representative of the group, at large. I find it hard to believe that so many there would share your "I got mine" attitude. I also think that most would be wise enough to realize that keeping your options open is the smart thing to do. That the main import of my post was ignored just confirmed the selfishness of those to whom the message was directed.

NtC, I did end that post with an attempt at humor. I was just trying to get you to look beyond your own position and consider those who are working to improve their situations.

Poor Rocky, you deluded yourself. That bright light was enlightenment trying to break through the darkness of your closed mind.