How to get the union on property!

[Humphreybogart]

Bogart, let me ask you this...........at CS , is it possible to upgrade, even though there are those who are more senior than you and awaiting an upgrade as well??? Such being the case, doesnt that spark some animosity from those in line to upgrade and who are senior to a junior "go the extra mile" guy??? How many people are involved in the decision whether someone upgrades??? What if one of those people consistently shoots down an FO who bids captain becuase of a previous run in???? I am only curious. As you know, our system is simple.........bid it, hold it, get it and the rest is up to you.

Answer 1: Yes
Answer 2: Sometimes, people know where the stand in the upgrade line.
Answer 3: About 6-7
Answer 4: They will upgrade, but it may take a month or two longer.

 

[hydrarkt]

How do you even install and monitor a merit system in an organization with hundreds or thousands of pilots who are spread out all over the country and may never even see management face to face? It seems to me that the person who excels in that situation may be one who is unsafe, will fly a "questionable" airplane, fly over duty limits or fly in a situation which some other pilots will not.
In our business a pilot being evaluated on "merit" is suspect. It is also unsafe. At NJA there are no "checkmarks" or "brownie points" if I carry a maintenance item to the next airport instead of writing it up. There are no "brownie points" if I take off in conditions which prevent others from taking off. There are no "brownie points" if I fly over 14 hours of duty.
How do you evaluate pilots in your "merit system?" Sounds like a "kiss ass" system.

 

[realityman]

Okay, I'll bite too. Bogart, how, exactly, does the merit system work? This is not flamebait or sarcasm. I would honestly like to know. Mainly, does CS have anything printed? Kinda like practical test standards. Do you know exactly what you have to do to be considered for the upgrade? Does the company spell it out for you? Is it attitude? If so, how does your company management judge the attitude of pilots they may never ever meet face-to-face? Is it getting the job done? Do they take into consideration if you flew a broken airplane or not? And would that be considered a good thing or a bad thing? Does it involve one pilot "ratting" out another? (ie. I just flew a tour with Mr. xxxxxxx and he never once volunteered to help load bags or serve our passengers). If you routinely agree to fly past normal duty limits, does that count for or against you? In other words, do you honestly know how the merit system works at CS?
Sure, I'm a Netjets pilot. But seriously, I'm all for learning other systems. It's just that you've been telling how good the merit system is, but haven't really explained how it works.

 

[Humphreybogart]

How do you even install and monitor a merit system in an organization with hundreds or thousands of pilots who are spread out all over the country and may never even see management face to face? It seems to me that the person who excels in that situation may be one who is unsafe, will fly a "questionable" airplane, fly over duty limits or fly in a situation which some other pilots will not.
In our business a pilot being evaluated on "merit" is suspect. It is also unsafe. At NJA there are no "checkmarks" or "brownie points" if I carry a maintenance item to the next airport instead of writing it up. There are no "brownie points" if I take off in conditions which prevent others from taking off. There are no "brownie points" if I fly over 14 hours of duty.
How do you evaluate pilots in your "merit system?" Sounds like a "kiss ass" system.

Seems like everything you're mentioning as "brownie points" are actually breaking the regulations, and I hope that NO pilot no matter what company they worked for would do anything like that. It's a matter of safety, at CS, we would never be asked to do anything like that. I'm sure that doesn't happen at NJ either. If someone were to do it, I would think that it would be a negative act on their part not to mention irresponsible. What do you think?

 

[Humphreybogart]

Okay, I'll bite too. Bogart, how, exactly, does the merit system work? This is not flamebait or sarcasm. I would honestly like to know. Mainly, does CS have anything printed? Kinda like practical test standards. Do you know exactly what you have to do to be considered for the upgrade? Does the company spell it out for you? Is it attitude? If so, how does your company management judge the attitude of pilots they may never ever meet face-to-face? Is it getting the job done? Do they take into consideration if you flew a broken airplane or not? And would that be considered a good thing or a bad thing? Does it involve one pilot "ratting" out another? (ie. I just flew a tour with Mr. xxxxxxx and he never once volunteered to help load bags or serve our passengers). If you routinely agree to fly past normal duty limits, does that count for or against you? In other words, do you honestly know how the merit system works at CS?

I didn't think that this would be so interesting to you NJ guys. We fly periodically with standards captains, and they evaluate us on our performance throughout our tour. Yes they have a report they file on us after every tour. It is then sent to our assigned Asst. Chief Pilot. who recommends us, for an upgrade,based on the reports over the year. Don't ask what they grade us on, that's classified.

 

[FLYLOW22]

And if you end up being rated as a Brown Noser in good standing, you get an extra gold star by your name.

Get 5 of them and you are a REAL 5 STAR PILOT!!! Yeaaaaah!!!

Good old boy system. It's ripe for corruption.

 

[Hawkered]

The bottom line is if you guys are flying vendor operations for Netjets, or any of the fractionals, you really deserve a raise too! I mean, if you've got over thirty people on staff, you should really unionise.

Get the mechanics, pilots, flight attendants and ramp agents altogether and I'm sure you could come up with some convincing arguments for improvements in salary and working conditions.

There is an operator advertising right now for a Hawker captain at $60k, and working 12 on/ 2 off!!

Guys c'mon! Don't sell your soul to the devil! The aircraft is brand new and purchased at almost 13 million!

 

[finnjl]

Well, don't be bashful, speak up. What airlines are you referring to?


Better yet, let's just consider. This is the fractionals forum. Net Jets has by far the best working conditions of all the fractionals and is by far the best-paid... and the reason why is because of Local 1108. Their contract has forced the rest of the fractionals to step up and try to match them, but no one's come close.

AirNet- Non union - great company to work for
ASA - union - ok company to work for
Pinnacle - union - terrible company to work for

Threat of the union is better than a union anyday as was the case when I worked at AirNet. I imagine the local 1108 is much better than ALPA. As with anything there are Pros and cons.

 

[Guitar rocker]

AirNet- Non union - great company to work for
ASA - union - ok company to work for
Pinnacle - union - terrible company to work for

Threat of the union is better than a union anyday as was the case when I worked at AirNet. I imagine the local 1108 is much better than ALPA. As with anything there are Pros and cons.

The threat of Craig Washka giving you a checkride was terrible. I'm sure times have changed, but what a screamer.

 

[netjetwife]

Any union is only as good as the members are committed.

Any union is only as effective as the members are determined.

Any union is only a strong union when its members stand united.

 

[NavytoCivy]

Hello all. I’ve been reading along for awhile, but this is my first post. I felt compelled to put in my two cents.
I’m not trying to spark a debate with a planted Union Rep or anyone like that because, regardless of who’s right or wrong, you can’t win. I find it frustrating when someone posts an honest question or comment, only to be massacred and drowned out with union jargon and personal “you’re so ignorant” attacks. I can only speak from my experience which is more than some and less than others. I’ve been flying for CS for a while now and, honestly, it’s a great place to work. That’s the bottom line. If you read through the posts, most of the people who actually work here say something similar. I’m happy with the pay, the benefits and I truly enjoy the professionals I work with - both on the flightline and in the office. I’m happy with how fast I was promoted and yes, I even like my Supervisor. I’ve flown for others and I feel there’s value in enjoying where you work and feeling like being part of a big team. For me, that makes up for the $1-2K more a year that another company might offer – and I don’t even know that they do.
It’s true we are very busy, but that’s because we are good. I see busy as a good thing - I love to fly, it’s why I became a pilot. Contrary to what some have said, I’m not just a number here. I feel that what some refer to as the “Good ole Boys Club” others would consider the “Being Recognized for Doing a Good Job Club”. Personally, that’s the club I want to be in. Personally, I don’t need the Union to negotiate my pay - for a fee. Or protect me - for a fee. Or stand between me and my Supervisor – for a fee. Or to negotiate anything “on my behalf” (for a fee) by making my company and offer they can’t refuse. This isn’t 1930. If someone sexually harasses me, I have options. If I am unfairly passed up for promotion or fired unjustly, I have options. It’s 2006 – I’ll sue em. If my complaint is legitimate, I retire!
I guess my long-winded point is… I like it here at CitationShares as it is and don’t want or need any Union representation.

 

[miles otoole]

f U D

 

[miles otoole]

I guess my long-winded point is… I like it here at CitationShares as it is and don’t want or need any Union representation.

What can possibly be wrong with this?

 

[netjetwife]

When pilots feel that their needs are met and their interests are represented, there will probably be little interest in changing things. I don't think the focus is on CS right now, but, in the future, should your fellow pilots ask for a vote, surely you wouldn't have a problem with letting the majority decide? Many pilots think that your contentment is tied to the size of the company and believe that will change for the worse as CS grows larger. As no one can say, isn't it best to remain open-minded where unions are concerned? I don't think you'd feel as you do if you had gone through what the NJ pilots have. 1108 raised the bar for fractional pilot wages. You do recognize that, don't you?

 

[miles otoole]

I don't think the focus is on CS right now

Which focus is this and from whom?