How many got hired and quit at Pinnacolaba in the past week?

[bri5150]

Management - What former Mesaba flight ops managers are going to be at PCL other than this DV guy?

Again, there is more to an airline than airplanes and flight ops.

Union leaders - Its unlikely that Mesaba will retain any reps in the combined MEC except for the MSP Council. 2 out of 14 of the voting reps is not exactly a strong influence.

God help us if this is the case. I don't see how any of the Pinnacle MEC can be voted in after the debacles that were proven in the past year, and after what happened in this past week.

Training centers - Who cares what building training is being done in (both training centers will remain in full swing by the way)? Answer this.....why was PCLs training program and procedures chosen for the CRJ fleet if Mesaba's was superior?

I am talking about the PEOPLE, not the building. Who gives a ********************e about the damn building. I bet PCLs training program was picked because you have more of the aircraft. Kind of like how Colgan's Cert was picked, not because it was better. It's the people of the training department that I credit with our safety record. Flight Safety doesn't count as a training program.

Chief Pilots - All of the Domicile Chief Pilots for the new PCL will be from the old PCL.

I only heard of DV moving, so I honestly concede this point for now.

Contracts - The JCBA barely even resembles the old Mesaba contract. Why do you guys keep claiming that we are all working under your old contract?

I really don't know what to say here. Unless your old contract and our old contract were the same word for word, this new one is ours almost word for word except for very few provisions. WORD for WORD. I honestly don't know how your old one read, but I am pretty sure it wasn't that similar to ours. How can you even dispute this? I was sitting in the roadshow, and I can't count how many times they said "and this came from the Mesaba contract". I bet they said "this came from the Pinnacle contract" about five times (if that).

p.s. Wow, super fail formatting here

 

[gojo]

Ha! You guys stay classy! He's referring to the closing date of 9E's latest vacancy. So someone got a whiff that Pinnacle has a vacancy for 15 CA RJ upgrades. (GASP! You know, something XJ hasn't seen in years). And then certain XJ guys decided that it's the 9E merger committee's goal to delay the award until June 10th because by then, the vacancy closes. Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, the whole delay is because of XJs dispute in the first place. The whole DOH on sim date versus class date.

And before anyone at XJ or 9L gets super excited, I'd hold onto it for a while. Methinks that everyone will not be allowed to cross-jump the moment the ISL comes out. There is just far too much to integrate and instant movement would be impossible due to training constraints. I believe 9E already mentioned having operational fences to keep movement in-house until ready. My educated guess would be 6 months, probably January 1 2012 before we can jump across to others.

Guys, arguing with clown and doing time is pointless. They have shown complete disregard to fairness in this integration and only talk about how they can justify screwing 9L and XJ for their personal advancement.

 

[CptMurf]

I really don't know what to say here. Unless your old contract and our old contract were the same word for word, this new one is ours almost word for word except for very few provisions. WORD for WORD. I honestly don't know how your old one read, but I am pretty sure it wasn't that similar to ours. How can you even dispute this? I was sitting in the roadshow, and I can't count how many times they said "and this came from the Mesaba contract". I bet they said "this came from the Pinnacle contract" about five times (if that).

bri you forget, they would have gotten this contract or better on their own. It was just a matter of time.

On a side note... I was going to go picketing this afternoon for an SLI judgement. Would you like to join me?

 

[bri5150]

bri you forget, they would have gotten this contract or better on their own. It was just a matter of time.

On a side note... I was going to go picketing this afternoon for an SLI judgement. Would you like to join me?

Yeah, outside Arb. Bloch's house, right? I'll put the week delay on 9E, but other than that, Bloch needs to get his stuff together.

 

[CptMurf]

Flyer, when you and 9E can go 60+ years without a pilot acutally crashing or totaling an aircraft then you can boast about your saftey but until then zippit.

I'm as proud of XJs safety record as you. But we have had a Dash in a snow bank, an AVRO fall into a construction area, a Saab blow all the mains on landing, and we took 5 jetways in the prop on the first day of operating the new DTW terminal. I think what you mean to say was 60+ years without a fatality. We've dented some over the years too. We just didn't switch seats, accept a tailwind with a 2 hour old BA of poor, or taxi to the gate afterward.

 

[RJLoser]

Thanks murph. Not happy about accidents but it's nice to see humility. We all will gain and lose here. Time to start moving forward.

 

[Flyer1015]

Guys, arguing with clown and doing time is pointless. They have shown complete disregard to fairness in this integration and only talk about how they can justify screwing 9L and XJ for their personal advancement.

Excuse you, my current disdain is with the XJ merger comittee trying to screw me (and every other 9E guy) out of 2 months of seniority by forcing us to use sim date, while ensuring they (XJ) themselves and 9L are using their own class dates. You want me to sing kum ba yah?

Let me fix it for you:

They (XJ + 9L) have shown complete disregard to fairness in this integration and only talk about how they can justify screwing 9E for their personal advancement

 

[CptMurf]

Excuse you, my current disdain is with the XJ merger comittee trying to screw me (and every other 9E guy) out of 2 months of seniority by forcing us to use sim date, while ensuring they (XJ) themselves and 9L are using their own class dates. You want me to sing kum ba yah?

Let me fix it for you:

They (XJ + 9L) have shown complete disregard to fairness in this integration and only talk about how they can justify screwing 9E for their personal advancement

How much seniority were the XJ/9L guys getting screwed out of with 9Es final proposal? Pot meet kettle.

 

[gojo]

Excuse you, my current disdain is with the XJ merger comittee trying to screw me (and every other 9E guy) out of 2 months of seniority by forcing us to use sim date, while ensuring they (XJ) themselves and 9L are using their own class dates. You want me to sing kum ba yah?

Let me fix it for you:

They (XJ + 9L) have shown complete disregard to fairness in this integration and only talk about how they can justify screwing 9E for their personal advancement

How much seniority were the XJ/9L guys getting screwed out of with 9Es final proposal? Pot meet kettle.

See I told you, pointless.

 

[mesaba13]

Flyer-You claim that past mergers have been all about career expectations but no one from 9E has posted what that expectation was. Before the merger date you had way more planes but roughly the same number of pilots. That tells me that your staffing model alows abuse. Other than the top 80 guys at 9E, who at 9E could have had a realistic career expectation of being a 900 captain (especially in MSP,DTW,MEM)? The 9E retirement sucked, the staffing model is to Junior man, sick policy, no trip gurantee, no block or better, and the list goes on and on.

Why can't some of you admit what XJ lacks in fleet size they make up for in larger aircraft and a much better starting point for the joint contract. There are an additional 41 CRJ-900's in three bases that your group will now have access to bid in time.

So again what was the career expectation for the 9E pilot group?

 

[mesaba13]

Oh and don't tell me that you were just going to just get all that stuff in your new contract without XJ. If you say that than I would respond that we were also going to find flying for the Saabs.

 

[bri5150]

Excuse you, my current disdain is with the XJ merger comittee trying to screw me (and every other 9E guy) out of 2 months of seniority by forcing us to use sim date, while ensuring they (XJ) themselves and 9L are using their own class dates. You want me to sing kum ba yah?

Let me fix it for you:

They (XJ + 9L) have shown complete disregard to fairness in this integration and only talk about how they can justify screwing 9E for their personal advancement

We are trying to screw you out of two months in which you didn't work for your company (you were a contractor)? You are the one that took the job and accepted the fact you weren't hired until you finished your sim stuff. Sounds to me like you were screwing yourself. As my previous posts show, I always thought it was fair to move your DOH to the same as ours, but the audible Pinnacle opinion of trying to screw the other guys has made me rethink my opinion on the subject. Using your current DOH to integrate has more legal merit than using the damn LOA, or putting almost all the XJ and Colgan pilots below 9E on the seniority list. Sounds to me like we pretty much gifted you that provision as opposed to using every means possible to screw you with it. Make no mistake, the past week's debacle was not about whether or not to allow shifting your DOH's. That issue was resolved a long time ago. It was about suspicious activity on the new list they presented to Mr. Bloch. And from what I hear, it was even screwing some of your own pilot group.

 

[bri5150]

In order to get a new contract before the merger, I am sure you would have had to been released to strike. I may be wrong, but isn't there language in the ASA that says if you strike it opens the ASA? I remember hearing that a while back and thinking about how screwed you guys were.

 

[Flyer1015]

How much seniority were the XJ/9L guys getting screwed out of with 9Es final proposal? Pot meet kettle.

They key word there is FINAL proposal. 9E's merger committee tried several varying ways to negotiate towards this integration. Both XJ and 9L were steadfast on their own methods, DOH and realtive, respectively. That is a straight-up method of all DOH or all relative. There is no room for negotiating when you present a straight-up (all or nothing) method. 9E tried several different things. In fact, one offer to Colgan was something they are probably gonna regret turning down. A combo of relative/DOH for Colgan. As for the XJ, a combo or relative/DOH as well, but dependant on aircraft that are currently covered under air service agreement (basically, RJs only). There were quite a few different proposals put out by the 9E committee, but unfortunately, unless it was straight up DOH, XJ didn't wanna hear it, and unless it was straight up relative, 9L didn't wanna hear it. And you mean to tell me that those two groups weren't trying to get as much of a seniority grab for themselves, with their own proposal? 9E hesitantly had to submit the final view, when everyone knows that almost no group wanted to negotiate towards an integration. In fact, one particular group wanted everything to be in the hands of the arbitrator far, far before Apr 15.

 

[Flyer1015]

We are trying to screw you out of two months in which you didn't work for your company (you were a contractor)? You are the one that took the job and accepted the fact you weren't hired until you finished your sim stuff. Sounds to me like you were screwing yourself.

I *did* work for the company since my class date. I filled out all the employment forms, I was in their HR system, the I9 form, I got paychecks every friday from "Pinnacle Airlines" written on them. Your argument that I didn't work for the company holds no water. Pinnacle even gave me a seniority number on day of class, as had everyone else. Your arguments just don't hold any water.

 

[Flyer1015]

In order to get a new contract before the merger, I am sure you would have had to been released to strike. I may be wrong, but isn't there language in the ASA that says if you strike it opens the ASA? I remember hearing that a while back and thinking about how screwed you guys were.

What makes you think a strike would have started? You don't think the company would have settle in the dark wee hours of the night? Hmm, I seem to recall a *certain* regional airline in a 30 day cooling period and then settling a new contract just hours after midnight before a potential strike, circa Jan 2004.

 

[Carl_Spackler]

There is no sense still arguing back and forth. What's done is done and short of a usair/America west debacle there is nothing we can do to change the outcome no matter the results. The good news is that any loss in seniority will be quickly recovered when there is mass attrition due to pilots having strokes.

 

[Flyer1015]

You know, I'm trying to stay positive, looking forward to working with future XJ 9E'rs. I'm trying to get the whole happy family image and working as one. However, it is still amiss to many that despite what was presented in negotiations, the final method will be Bloch's. It doesn't matter XJ wanted DOH, 9L wanted relative, and 9E's final was a stat/cat method. It just don't matter. The final result and award will be Bloch's choosing.

So that having been said, all these 'pot, meet kettle' arguments don't hold true. The award will be Bloch's, regardless of the final viewpoint of any one airline. What *DOES* matter is when two airlines dispute a 3rd airline's start date, when those 2 airlines already get their pilot class date as their DOH, and try to argue with Bloch that 9E should not have their DOH as class date, rather, as sim date. Our LOA #2 V. already fixes that correction, and both XJ and 9L agreed to that the day the JCBA passed. All this was before SLI negotiations.

Do you see the point? The final award, methodology is out of our hands, but the one thing in our hands is the dispute. It can be a possibility that the dispute hold and 9E is screwed. This is where I lose the whole family thing. Because I know my XJ and 9L brethern will not be deciding the SLI award, only Bloch will. But the one thing XJ and 9L can decide is what happens for our starting points. It is very hard for me to accept my new family, a family starting at point A, when they are trying to force me (and my other 9E brothers) to start at point B, simply to get ahead by 2 months on average. Why can't we all start at point A? Why are so many XJ/9L trying to intentionally screw with another incoming family member? All 3 families had already decided to adjust DOH to the beginning of starting training (class date) per LOA #2 transition agreement.

I'll be one happy family when XJ and 9L drop this ridiculous attempt at seniority grab. Both of them are starting at point A, and forcing us to start later as point B. Which is hilarious, because their initial dispute to Bloch makes them sound like Pinnacle would gain an advantage over them by 2 months. So it's ok for XJ to start at Point A, it's ok for 9L to start at Point A, but Pinnacle was suppose to start at Point A + 2months, which is Point B. Now, 9E's list shows Point A as a starting point, and the other two went up in arms! Point A should be the starting ground for all 3 airlines.

That is what I'm having a hard time accepting the new family with.

 

[bri5150]

I *did* work for the company since my class date. I filled out all the employment forms, I was in their HR system, the I9 form, I got paychecks every friday from "Pinnacle Airlines" written on them. Your argument that I didn't work for the company holds no water. Pinnacle even gave me a seniority number on day of class, as had everyone else. Your arguments just don't hold any water.

Then why wasn't it your DOH? That's the only argument that matters.

 

[bri5150]

What makes you think a strike would have started? You don't think the company would have settle in the dark wee hours of the night? Hmm, I seem to recall a *certain* regional airline in a 30 day cooling period and then settling a new contract just hours after midnight before a potential strike, circa Jan 2004.

But your management was so much more ruthless!! It obviously wasn't getting done without a strike.

 

[ChickenSled]

Kind of like how Colgan's Cert was picked, not because it was better.

I guess we see how you feel about Colgan now?

 

[Inconceivable]

So again what was the career expectation for the 9E pilot group?

Repeated sodomy. Don't worry, there's plenty to go around.

 

[ChickenSled]

I am beginning to agree with XJHawk. Let's just use your original DOH. I am tired of trying to be fair and then just ripped on saying my company was going to shut down and we should be stapled. Especially now that Phil has been replaced, this company is going to have a WAAAAY larger Mesaba presence than Pinnacle. I couldn't be more happy about that.

You do realize that if you guys manage to pull off your DOH coup, ALPA will have to pay back 2-3 months of dues to all Pinnacle pilots.

Think about it.

 

[bri5150]

You know, I'm trying to stay positive, looking forward to working with future XJ 9E'rs. I'm trying to get the whole happy family image and working as one. However, it is still amiss to many that despite what was presented in negotiations, the final method will be Bloch's. It doesn't matter XJ wanted DOH, 9L wanted relative, and 9E's final was a stat/cat method. It just don't matter. The final result and award will be Bloch's choosing.

So that having been said, all these 'pot, meet kettle' arguments don't hold true. The award will be Bloch's, regardless of the final viewpoint of any one airline. What *DOES* matter is when two airlines dispute a 3rd airline's start date, when those 2 airlines already get their pilot class date as their DOH, and try to argue with Bloch that 9E should not have their DOH as class date, rather, as sim date. Our LOA #2 V. already fixes that correction, and both XJ and 9L agreed to that the day the JCBA passed. All this was before SLI negotiations.

Do you see the point? The final award, methodology is out of our hands, but the one thing in our hands is the dispute. It can be a possibility that the dispute hold and 9E is screwed. This is where I lose the whole family thing. Because I know my XJ and 9L brethern will not be deciding the SLI award, only Bloch will. But the one thing XJ and 9L can decide is what happens for our starting points. It is very hard for me to accept my new family, a family starting at point A, when they are trying to force me (and my other 9E brothers) to start at point B, simply to get ahead by 2 months on average. Why can't we all start at point A? Why are so many XJ/9L trying to intentionally screw with another incoming family member? All 3 families had already decided to adjust DOH to the beginning of starting training (class date) per LOA #2 transition agreement.

I'll be one happy family when XJ and 9L drop this ridiculous attempt at seniority grab. Both of them are starting at point A, and forcing us to start later as point B. Which is hilarious, because their initial dispute to Bloch makes them sound like Pinnacle would gain an advantage over them by 2 months. So it's ok for XJ to start at Point A, it's ok for 9L to start at Point A, but Pinnacle was suppose to start at Point A + 2months, which is Point B. Now, 9E's list shows Point A as a starting point, and the other two went up in arms! Point A should be the starting ground for all 3 airlines.

That is what I'm having a hard time accepting the new family with.

All of this is because of the attitude you have shown towards us this entire process. You can't just spout off crap about LOA's, ratios, staples, and "we saved your airline" without getting crap back. It's okay to use your point B because that was your DOH. If you didn't like that as your DOH, then you should have fixed it a long time ago. But you didn't. I will say it again. This past week has not been about adjusting your DOH. That was decided a long time ago. Stop saying we are trying to get your original DOH. I am just saying it is justified if we were to argue that you shouldn't be able to adjust that based on all the crap (see above) you have sent our way. Apparently our MEC agrees with you (as did I) that you can adjust your DOH to the beginning of class. All Mesaba pilots I have talked to want a fair integration. All I have heard from the 9E side was crap (see above).

 

[bri5150]

I guess we see how you feel about Colgan now?

/sigh Yes, I feel, cancel that, it is a known fact that the Colgan Cert was picked based on the amount of aircraft. I thought it was silly from the beginning of this mess that we weren't using it to begin with. Why fire up a whole new Q400 program when Colgan already had it?

 

[bri5150]

You do realize that if you guys manage to pull off your DOH coup, ALPA will have to pay back 2-3 months of dues to all Pinnacle pilots.

Think about it.

Not once have I said our MEC is trying for a DOH coup. I said we should have looked into it more because of the crap coming our way. The DOH shift is a done deal. I will bold it again: This past week was not about shifting your DOH!! It was about other suspicious changings of the list!!

Oh, and I don't give two craps about ALPA paying back dues. Seriously, who cares?

 

[Flyer1015]

You do realize that if you guys manage to pull off your DOH coup, ALPA will have to pay back 2-3 months of dues to all Pinnacle pilots.

Think about it.

That costs just a little amount of $$$ out of their moustache club and country club dues. The biggest thing is that by using sim date of hire, you'll have currently junior pilots automatically jump above more senior pilots. As an example, I would jump over 3 guys above me in my class, since my sim ride was before theirs. That is a huge violation of ALPA merger policy to begin with.

 

[ChickenSled]

Not once have I said our MEC is trying for a DOH coup. I said we should have looked into it more because of the crap coming our way. The DOH shift is a done deal. I will bold it again: This past week was not about shifting your DOH!! It was about other suspicious changings of the list!!

Oh, and I don't give two craps about ALPA paying back dues. Seriously, who cares?

I'm pretty sure ALPA national will care if they pay that dues money back. If it comes out of the combined pilot groups money, we will be pretty poor. But you XJ guys just want whats fair, and best for the combined group.

And, I'm quite sure I know what the DOH objection is about. Mesaba's MEC is trying to string things out till after 4 June when the Furloughs will be recalled back from Pinnacle. This would give them some unbelievable leverage over the company. What they plan to do with that leverage, that is the million dollar question?

Do you not wonder why Bloch was working on this over Memorial day weekend? (I'll give you a hint, the company probably wants it done before Jun 4).

 

[Flyer1015]

All Mesaba pilots I have talked to want a fair integration. All I have heard from the 9E side was crap (see above).

If you want fair integration, then your MEC has to be open to fair ideas, not a one-way straight-all-or-nothing DOH method. Same goes for 9L. Ask your committee for transcripts of the negotiations, so you can get a hold of what ideas were thrown around.

 

[gojo]

You know, I'm trying to stay positive, looking forward to working with future XJ 9E'rs. I'm trying to get the whole happy family image and working as one. However, it is still amiss to many that despite what was presented in negotiations, the final method will be Bloch's. It doesn't matter XJ wanted DOH, 9L wanted relative, and 9E's final was a stat/cat method. It just don't matter. The final result and award will be Bloch's choosing.

So that having been said, all these 'pot, meet kettle' arguments don't hold true. The award will be Bloch's, regardless of the final viewpoint of any one airline. What *DOES* matter is when two airlines dispute a 3rd airline's start date, when those 2 airlines already get their pilot class date as their DOH, and try to argue with Bloch that 9E should not have their DOH as class date, rather, as sim date. Our LOA #2 V. already fixes that correction, and both XJ and 9L agreed to that the day the JCBA passed. All this was before SLI negotiations.

Do you see the point? The final award, methodology is out of our hands, but the one thing in our hands is the dispute. It can be a possibility that the dispute hold and 9E is screwed. This is where I lose the whole family thing. Because I know my XJ and 9L brethern will not be deciding the SLI award, only Bloch will. But the one thing XJ and 9L can decide is what happens for our starting points. It is very hard for me to accept my new family, a family starting at point A, when they are trying to force me (and my other 9E brothers) to start at point B, simply to get ahead by 2 months on average. Why can't we all start at point A? Why are so many XJ/9L trying to intentionally screw with another incoming family member? All 3 families had already decided to adjust DOH to the beginning of starting training (class date) per LOA #2 transition agreement.

I'll be one happy family when XJ and 9L drop this ridiculous attempt at seniority grab. Both of them are starting at point A, and forcing us to start later as point B. Which is hilarious, because their initial dispute to Bloch makes them sound like Pinnacle would gain an advantage over them by 2 months. So it's ok for XJ to start at Point A, it's ok for 9L to start at Point A, but Pinnacle was suppose to start at Point A + 2months, which is Point B. Now, 9E's list shows Point A as a starting point, and the other two went up in arms! Point A should be the starting ground for all 3 airlines.

That is what I'm having a hard time accepting the new family with.

Funny, you in particular have been proposing far worse things than that to both XJ and 9L. In fact, your one of the more vocal ones on here. Even if your accusations are true, and they are not, why is it ok for one sli committee to play unfair, but not the others?