Gojet getting 50 seaters!

[Evansaero]

you all look like a bunch of whining crybabies who are used to getting served everything on a silver platter.quote]


Silver Platter... Now thats funny.

 

[DoinTime]

OK, so let me get this straight:

I am an unemployed former Aloha pilot. There is and was no strike at TSA. I also have a tough time finding any operators/airlines out there that are currently hiring. Now unlike my UAL/AA/CO counterparts who have an airline to return to, I don't. My currency is running out, and we all know that most places want you to be current and have some recency of experience as part of their minimum requirements. I also did my regional time banging away in turboprops before moving onto Boeings. I had a career job, and now I got set back literally 8 years.

Now let's see... there's no ALPA job action against GoJet, there's no ALPA recruitment ban against GoJet, what do you have to tell me that I shouldn't feed my family? Should I give up 13 years of paying dues all for a regional squabble over a minimum wage job?

I tell you what... if you happily employed Pinnacle pilots, Republic pilots, ASA pilots, Delta pilots, United pilots, Airtran pilots, Southwest pilots are so adamant about protecting this profession against the GoScum and the like, then start an adopt-a-furloughee program and take assessments to pay our BASIC living expenses after our unemployment benefits run out. You do that, and then you'll have a leg to stand on. But until you do... you all look like a bunch of whining crybabies who are used to getting served everything on a silver platter.

No, I do not work for GoJet.

Sadly, you have been recipient of the kind of damage pilots who are willing to work for next to nothing can do to this industry yet you still don't understand that they only way to shut pilot whorehouses like GoJet down is to cut off their supply of pilots. Why would anyone consider paying you more when they know you will work for less? With all of the support you are getting from other posters on here its no wonder this profession is circling the drain.

Getting back into the industry is tough without currency but its been done countless times over by pilots with a lot harder luck than yours. If things keep up you won't have a profession to come back to.

 

[flyinag02]

pilots who are willing to work for next to nothing

Looking at the pilot pay scales on APC it looks to me like GJ pay is inline with the rest of the industry. It is not what I would call next to nothing.

 

[Freight Dog]

Sadly, you have been recipient of the kind of damage pilots who are willing to work for next to nothing can do to this industry yet you still don't understand that they only way to shut pilot whorehouses like GoJet down is to cut off their supply of pilots. Why would anyone consider paying you more when they know you will work for less? With all of the support you are getting from other posters on here its no wonder this profession is circling the drain.

Getting back into the industry is tough without currency but its been done countless times over by pilots with a lot harder luck than yours. If things keep up you won't have a profession to come back to.

You are correct in theory. In practice, we would have to shut off pilot whorehouses like Mesa, Pinnacle, TSA, Skywest, Republic, ExpressJet, ASA, Comair, Colgan, Eagle, PSA, Mesaba, Compass, etc. in addition to GoJet to accomplish what you're trying to accomplish.

Really... what is the difference between a new hire GoJet pilot and a new hire Pinnacle pilot, and I'm talking right now, December 2008, not 2005?

You might not know because you're entrenched in the left seat making at least a reasonably okay living. The fact that you're likely flying routes that mainline did for a fraction of the pay is the discussion I won't get into right now.

But I can tell you from my perspective as the guy who's drawing unemployment who had a true career position.

Coming from the right seat of a Boeing working for a 62 year old airline, as I mentioned in an above post, I was making the equivalent of your (Pinnacle, I presume) 15 year CRJ900 captain pay, as an FO. Now, that's gone. Right now, I have to wonder... do I start over at one of the whorehouses you mentioned above for literally less than my unemployment check, go overseas, quit aviation although sadly even non-flying jobs are scarce these days, or hey, possibly apply with and accept job with an outfit like GoJet. See, to me, GoJet is an airline that is growing and taking delivery of airplanes and hiring guys with experience into left seat (read: higher than unemployment check). Sounds too good to be true? Well, I dunno... maybe. Personally, I hold myself to a higher standard than to cross picket lines, but let's face it... when my ALPA Furlough Resources state that GoJet is one of the airlines hiring, and then I see "wh0res" and I'm borrowing your expression here, from other carriers (non-GoJet) telling me I shouldn't go there, whom do I believe? Someone "whore" from a different "whorehouse" vs. my union telling me who's hiring?

I am very familiar with GoJet's existence, how it came about, the purpose of it, etc. I am also very familiar with ALPA's response pre-NMB ruling and also post-NMB ruling. In addition, I am also VERY familiar with how regional carriers or "pilot whorehouses" do their business and bid on flying, and how they get the flying.

So basically, to answer the initial question on the difference of December 2008 Pinnacle new hire and December 2008 GoJet new hire: upgrade time, and time spent drawing less than unemployment. If you were to ask me the same question in 2005 before NMB ruling, and during ALPA's legal challenge to GoJet's existence, I'd fully agree with you. ALPA - through its inaction, lack of appeal of the ruling, lack of instituting a recruitment ban against GoJet, and actually listing GoJet as one of the airlines hiring in ALPA Furlough Resources basically tells me that there is nothing wrong with seeking employment at GoJet. Now, on flightinfo, it's a different story - HoJet scabs! Mesa sucks! you know the routine.

In reality, for those of us who lost our career positions, the last place we'd ever want to apply would be any regional, GoJet or Skywest or Pinnacle. We were happily flying Boeings making a good living. But now that those jobs have been taken away from us, we need to feed our families. It's always easier to grandstand when you have a job, and that's what I take this GoJet argument of yours to be - grandstanding.

Want to end pilot whorehouses? Every regional pilot needs to walk off their job. But that's not happening, nor is it realistic. Either we all do it.... or we go back to name calling on FI.

 

[thinairupthere]

As a former TSA pilot who was there from the beginning of this GoJet fiasco, who voted "no", and who was pissed off and thought that "they" were taking "our" jobs. I have to comment on Freight Dog's posts.

First, I am sorry about your loss of job.

2nd, Thank you. Your posts are probably one of the more thought out and better written on this website.

3rd, I'm starting to agree with you. The pilots of everywhere else i.e. regionals, need to stop bickering with eachother and fight management. GoJet is wrong, but, so are all the regionals. The bar keeps getting lower and lower with each company outthere. I tell everyone I meet when they ask why I left "airline flying" Because, we are slaves, paid pennies, get shat on by pax, mang, and each other with out even a hint of a reacharound.
This is a hard, long road we chose to travel, and everyone has no one to blame except ourselves for taking the jobs in these crummy places. I wish everyone luck in thier careers. I know how hard it is to get and keep a great job. But, everyone who works in the "regional" world is and has contributed to lowering the bar in aviation.
slam away

 

[iflyformoney!]

Go Jet

The fact of the matter is. if you are willing to fly DREAMLINERS for AA on another certificate (AA light), then Go Jet is the airline for you!!

'nuf said!

All the best

 

[Freight Dog]

Bad example, AA owns and flies under its own code. TSA and GoJet do not. They are both "light."

But hey, here's the NMB decision regarding TSA and GoJet single carrier petition.

http://www.nmb.gov/representation/deter2006/33n009.pdf

 

[skybum1979]

so for real, from a gojet pilot. how often are you guys denied jumpseats?

 

[007]

OK, so let me get this straight:

I am an unemployed former Aloha pilot. There is and was no strike at TSA. I also have a tough time finding any operators/airlines out there that are currently hiring. Now unlike my UAL/AA/CO counterparts who have an airline to return to, I don't. My currency is running out, and we all know that most places want you to be current and have some recency of experience as part of their minimum requirements. I also did my regional time banging away in turboprops before moving onto Boeings. I had a career job, and now I got set back literally 8 years.

Now let's see... there's no ALPA job action against GoJet, there's no ALPA recruitment ban against GoJet, what do you have to tell me that I shouldn't feed my family? Should I give up 13 years of paying dues all for a regional squabble over a minimum wage job?

I tell you what... if you happily employed Pinnacle pilots, Republic pilots, ASA pilots, Delta pilots, United pilots, Airtran pilots, Southwest pilots are so adamant about protecting this profession against the GoScum and the like, then start an adopt-a-furloughee program and take assessments to pay our BASIC living expenses after our unemployment benefits run out. You do that, and then you'll have a leg to stand on. But until you do... you all look like a bunch of whining crybabies who are used to getting served everything on a silver platter.

No, I do not work for GoJet.

Well, lets see, your company got put out of business by a regional with questionable business practices, and now you wanna know what's wrong with going to work for one?

 

[Freight Dog]

Well, lets see, your company got put out of business by a regional with questionable business practices, and now you wanna know what's wrong with going to work for one?

So, with all this grandstanding, tell me Mr. Bond.... what is the answer? Are you and your pilot group going to walk off the job to protest this injustice? Are you willing to donate a portion of your salary to help those who lost their jobs in this fashion? What are you going to do to help those furloughees who were unable to find jobs? Mind you, most have been in this industry way longer than you.

I'm really curious to see what alternate plan of action you come up with. Now also, bear in mind the legalese I posted above.

 

[007]

So, with all this grandstanding, tell me Mr. Bond.... what is the answer? Are you and your pilot group going to walk off the job to protest this injustice? Are you willing to donate a portion of your salary to help those who lost their jobs in this fashion? What are you going to do to help those furloughees who were unable to find jobs? Mind you, most have been in this industry way longer than you.

I'm really curious to see what alternate plan of action you come up with. Now also, bear in mind the legalese I posted above.

I am not grandstanding, I even understand and agree with some of your sentiment. I've been out of work..without even the benefit of unemployment. But coming on here and asking what everyone else is gonna do for you because you had a "real" career position isn't gonna get the reaction your looking for. In the end it is all your decision. If you can live with taking a job at the some of these companies who destroyed your career position then do it. Just remember that the cycle continues, except this time your putting people out of work. Not vice versa. Personally I think the sooner you quit to refer to the regionals as pilot whorehouses and treating anyone junior like an idiot, maybe they'll quit to be just that.

 

[Freight Dog]

You might want to read my posts a little closer. Here is the gist of my posts:

1) Most people on here are grandstanding about right and wrong, yet they don't practice what they preach. Case in point, paycuts/concessions to maintain/steal flying from other groups regardless of affiliations. If you read my posts closer, I quoted SimonSays because he referred to GoJet as a whorehouse.

2) NMB ruled that GoJet is a separate carrier from TSA over 3 years ago. ALPA accepted that ruling. They didn't appeal it or issue recruitment bans, or anything of the sort. Here's the ruling:

http://www.nmb.gov/representation/deter2006/33n009.pdf

3) Jumpseat is *NOT* a political weapon.

4) Comair is furloughing, ASA is about to furlough, Mesaba is hiring. You see anything wrong with this picture? Now, all of them are ALPA carriers - hell, Comair and Mesaba are now wholly-owned by Delta. How is this any different from GoJet/TSA?

 

[007]

You might want to read my posts a little closer. Here is the gist of my posts:

1) Most people on here are grandstanding about right and wrong, yet they don't practice what they preach. Case in point, paycuts/concessions to maintain/steal flying from other groups regardless of affiliations. If you read my posts closer, I quoted SimonSays because he referred to GoJet as a whorehouse.

2) NMB ruled that GoJet is a separate carrier from TSA over 3 years ago. ALPA accepted that ruling. They didn't appeal it or issue recruitment bans, or anything of the sort. Here's the ruling:

http://www.nmb.gov/representation/deter2006/33n009.pdf

3) Jumpseat is *NOT* a political weapon.

4) Comair is furloughing, ASA is about to furlough, Mesaba is hiring. You see anything wrong with this picture? Now, all of them are ALPA carriers - hell, Comair and Mesaba are now wholly-owned by Delta. How is this any different from GoJet/TSA?

1) Agree, there are lots of internet toughguys.

2) Not sure that appealing that decision would have made difference anyways.

3) Agreed

4) Very valid point about Mesaba/Comair. I see one major thing though. Gojet started as whipsaw company just like Freedom. Mesaba/Comair find themselves in this position as a result of a merger.
Gojet pilots chose to work for that company knowing that a.) during good times they were accepting terrible working conditions and pay in order to get a quick upgrade. b.) they knew (at least the direct entry captains) they were going to work for a company which was designed to undermine another.

I agree with your argument, but I still think Gojet is a different category. They are not scabs by definition of the word. But I think the mentality is the same.

 

[Freight Dog]

1) Agree, there are lots of internet toughguys.

Amen!

2) Not sure that appealing that decision would have made difference anyways.

Why not? By not fighting it, you give your endorsement of the decision. See, it takes the wind out of sails for those who are accusing GoJet pilots of being scabs or pseudo scabs or whatever you want to call them.

3) Agreed

4) Very valid point about Mesaba/Comair. I see one major thing though. Gojet started as whipsaw company just like Freedom. Mesaba/Comair find themselves in this position as a result of a merger.
Gojet pilots chose to work for that company knowing that a.) during good times they were accepting terrible working conditions and pay in order to get a quick upgrade. b.) they knew (at least the direct entry captains) they were going to work for a company which was designed to undermine another.

I agree with your argument, but I still think Gojet is a different category. They are not scabs by definition of the word. But I think the mentality is the same.

Are you referring to GoJet pilots hired in 2005 or 2008? To look at GoJet pilots hired in 2008 in same light as those hired in 2005 is wrong, and akin to looking at Continental or Airtran and automatically assume they're scabs and boot them off the jumpseat, shun them, etc.

It's wrong, in light of all the legalese, subsequent lack of action by ALPA, industry conditions and airlines shutting down, and then ALPA telling those pilots that GoJet is hiring, a GoJet 2008 hire is about as much of a scab/pseudo scab as any other regional pilot flying what was once mainline flying.

That's my whole point...

 

[inthepool]

Freight Dog and 007:

Thank you for being real.

 

[CX880]

People see what is happening to this industry and frankly do not care to save it. It has been on a downward spiral since the beginning. Why change anything now? No one, not even alpa can do anything about it. Look at MESA 08, there is no hope for the regionals. Arguably the best regional that even somewhat qualifies as a decent job is non union! It's irony. F it all. Get your time and move on to places where unions and qol actually matters.

 

[35off]

well said by one of the scumbags leading the pack.

 

[nwa_contrails]

Get your time and move on to places where unions and qol actually matters.

Disgusting. As you trample your fellow regional pilots to get ahead.

 

[Freight Dog]

Hey NWA and 35off... got a couple of questions for you:

What's the difference between GoJet/TSA and Mesaba/Comair today? Now please, bear in mind that I'm not talking GoJet in 2005. I'm talking GoJet today in 2008, and keep in mind what's taken place in the last 3 years.

Do you think it's right to bash the entire pilot group for actions of those pre-ruling, especially in light of what's going on in the industry?

Let me ask you this... would you take a World or North American pilot on your jumpseat? Are you familiar with what happened there?

 

[nwa_contrails]

Please, bear in mind, I'm talking about the GJ of 2008. You're entitled to your opinions and I'm entitiled to mine. Every GJer, regardless of hire date, is in the same boat. The "new-hires" should have done their research before they joined, even though I'm sure most of them didn't. The way GJ was created was wrong. It impacted all the pilots at TSA, (and other carriers), and still contines to do so to this day.

Yes, the NMB gave them the SCP but does that make it right? Of course not. So what if ALPA didn't do anything about it either, they've got bigger fish to fry. And don't go off on your tangent about right and wrong. I've read it. You also try to compare GJ to others, and I don't think you can. GJ is unique, and I hate using that word with them, but it's true. You speak of Mesaba and Comair being wholly owned, however, do the offices of both companies reside in the same building, right down the hall from each other? Does the money from one carrier go to purchase new planes for and fund the continuance of the other? Do Comair airplanes and Mesaba airplanes sit next to each other in the hangar and get worked on by the same techs?