Gojet getting 50 seaters!

[Freight Dog]

Please, bear in mind, I'm talking about the GJ of 2008. You're entitled to your opinions and I'm entitiled to mine. Every GJer, regardless of hire date, is in the same boat. The "new-hires" should have done their research before they joined, even though I'm sure most of them didn't. The way GJ was created was wrong. It impacted all the pilots at TSA, (and other carriers), and still contines to do so to this day.

I agree with you that the way GJ was created was wrong. No doubt about it. I'll give you that.

What I am failing to understand is how is GoJet in 2008 different from any other Express/Connection/Airlink carrier? There's a dozen carriers in various portfolios, and many of those are United Express, Delta Connection/Northwest Airlink, USAirways Express. You are all competing for the regional flying, very often at expense of another carrier. Read below for more...

Yes, the NMB gave them the SCP but does that make it right? Of course not. So what if ALPA didn't do anything about it either, they've got bigger fish to fry. And don't go off on your tangent about right and wrong. I've read it. You also try to compare GJ to others, and I don't think you can. GJ is unique, and I hate using that word with them, but it's true. You speak of Mesaba and Comair being wholly owned, however, do the offices of both companies reside in the same building, right down the hall from each other? Does the money from one carrier go to purchase new planes for and fund the continuance of the other? Do Comair airplanes and Mesaba airplanes sit next to each other in the hangar and get worked on by the same techs?

Actually, that fact alone that NMB rules that GJ is separate is enough. Does it really matter that they share offices? Doesn't Delta Connection share offices too down in Atlanta? It's the same whipsaw on another level, and the fact that you are picking on GoJet, yet not on Mesaba per se, kind of shows that you are choosing to fixate on something as opposed to look at the big picture.

Allow me to illustrate:

According to APC... Comair's juniormost FO was hired in January 2007. Next month, that FO will make $35/hour unless he gets furloughed. Mesaba is apparently offering preferential interviews to furloughed Comair pilots, but they get to come back at year 1 at $24/hour, 2nd year $28/hour. ASA is about to furlough too from what I read on here.
Do you see the shift? Now think GoJet right now in 2008 and tell me how is this any different.

Here's another example:

Air Wisconsin pilots had some of the best work rules and pay all the way around. The company bent their pilots over for paycuts and concessions in order to secure USAirways flying at detriment of other USAirways Express carriers, and I believe most if not all USAirways Express carriers are ALPA. Yet, I don't see any backlash against anyone over there and the whipsaw is very much alive and well.

Here's yet another example:

I don't see a peep about anyone bitching about World or North American. I asked you about them, yet you didn't even answer.

ATA's holding company purchased World Airways and North American, but maintained three separate certificates. They did their corporate shuffle and they shut down ATA's scheduled flying with World and North American picking up ATA's military flying. Now, ATA pilots are on the street, yet World and North American ended up hiring pilots to the bottom of their lists. Compare with GoJet...

See, you need to expand your horizons a bit, and look at the big picture. To focus your anger solely at GoJet is very myopic. The problem is much bigger than GoJet, and it's happening at just about every regional carrier. NMB has ruled against TSA ALPA. Sucks! But to most people who have been around the block a lot longer and been beyond the regional airline junior high school behavior, the picture is clear. I heard that some previous classes at GoJet were exclusively furloughed ATA pilots. I believe they know better. Don't get me wrong. The whole situation sucks... and if you have any ideas on how to change this whipsaw game, by all means. Just bear in mind, what you have in mind for GoJet should apply to all regional carriers because they're all part of the same game, legally and literally.

 

[Kenny]

Air Wisconsin pilots had some of the best work rules and pay all the way around. The company bent their pilots over for paycuts and concessions in order to secure USAirways flying at detriment of other USAirways Express carriers, and I believe most if not all USAirways Express carriers are ALPA. Yet, I don't see any backlash against anyone over there and the whipsaw is very much alive and well.

I'm going to leave the question of whether this statement is simply selective memory in order to justify the debate or otherwise but it is quite simply incorrect and totally untrue.

ZW pilots did not take any concessions in order to secure the USAir flying. We didn't need to, because the company didn't ask. They loaned USAir $120 mill and made $450 mil when they sold the shares.

The only time we've taken concessions was back in 2003 when UAL gave us 2 weeks or else.

Our concessionary contract and payrates are very much intact from that time and have not changed. If you look at our contract, the work rules are equal if not better than most majors, in some respects. Our pay for a 50 seat RJ, as that is all we have now, is within a dollar or so of the top. Which isn't bad for a contract that has been in effect for the last 5 years and does not include flying 70 seaters for the same rate aswell

One of the reasons we get bashed by management on a weekly basis for B-Scales, Blended payrates and PBS is because we are competing with the othe USAir Express carriers.

To suggest that we lowered our work rules and pay to that of the other USAir Express carriers is completely ignorant and didn't happen. Perhaps that's why there hasn't been any backlash.

 

[Freight Dog]

Thanks Kenny, I stand corrected. But as you say... when UAL spoke, you had to dance and try to undercut others with your contract and you took concessions. UAL still awarded the flying to someone else while you were still stuck with the concessionary contract, right?

That's the point of this discussion. Just about every regional pilot group is guilty of trying to undercut the others. I just find it extremely hypocritical of any regional pilot to point fingers at others when their own airline/pilot group are guilty of the same behavior. Didn't Skywest agree to fly everything from 50 to 90 seats for the same rate just to secure the flying? I think they might have subsequently changed that, but I hope you get my drift.

Thanks for correcting me with regards to Air Wisconsin.

I'm going to leave the question of whether this statement is simply selective memory in order to justify the debate or otherwise but it is quite simply incorrect and totally untrue.

ZW pilots did not take any concessions in order to secure the USAir flying. We didn't need to, because the company didn't ask. They loaned USAir $120 mill and made $450 mil when they sold the shares.

The only time we've taken concessions was back in 2003 when UAL gave us 2 weeks or else.

Our concessionary contract and payrates are very much intact from that time and have not changed. If you look at our contract, the work rules are equal if not better than most majors, in some respects. Our pay for a 50 seat RJ, as that is all we have now, is within a dollar or so of the top. Which isn't bad for a contract that has been in effect for the last 5 years and does not include flying 70 seaters for the same rate aswell

One of the reasons we get bashed by management on a weekly basis for B-Scales, Blended payrates and PBS is because we are competing with the othe USAir Express carriers.

To suggest that we lowered our work rules and pay to that of the other USAir Express carriers is completely ignorant and didn't happen. Perhaps that's why there hasn't been any backlash.

 

[Kenny]

Don't put words in my mouth.

What UAL wanted was for us to match the other UEX carriers. Most, if not all at the time, were and still do fly 70 seaters for the same rate that we fly 50 seaters for.

ZW pilots may be guilty of taking concessions but our current, concessionary contract didn't lower the bar for anyone other than ZW pilots.

This is evidenced by the fact that our current yearly pay revue, which is a 50 seat pay average +1%, already has us at the top of the scale.

 

[Regul8r]

OK, so let me get this straight:

I am an unemployed former Aloha pilot. There is and was no strike at TSA. I also have a tough time finding any operators/airlines out there that are currently hiring. Now unlike my UAL/AA/CO counterparts who have an airline to return to, I don't. My currency is running out, and we all know that most places want you to be current and have some recency of experience as part of their minimum requirements. I also did my regional time banging away in turboprops before moving onto Boeings. I had a career job, and now I got set back literally 8 years.

Now let's see... there's no ALPA job action against GoJet, there's no ALPA recruitment ban against GoJet, what do you have to tell me that I shouldn't feed my family? Should I give up 13 years of paying dues all for a regional squabble over a minimum wage job?

I tell you what... if you happily employed Pinnacle pilots, Republic pilots, ASA pilots, Delta pilots, United pilots, Airtran pilots, Southwest pilots are so adamant about protecting this profession against the GoScum and the like, then start an adopt-a-furloughee program and take assessments to pay our BASIC living expenses after our unemployment benefits run out. You do that, and then you'll have a leg to stand on. But until you do... you all look like a bunch of whining crybabies who are used to getting served everything on a silver platter.

No, I do not work for GoJet.

Good Post, Freight Dog. Alot of the anti-GoJet sentiment on here is nothing but the typical misdirected FI.com posturing. The argument doesn't carry much weight when it's delivered by some SJS Posterboy who got his RJ job handed to him right out of college.

 

[Freight Dog]

Kenny, thanks for correcting me. You clearly know more about Air Wisconsin's situation than I do.

I still however stand by everything else I said... the entire regional industry is one big whipsaw game, and it's wrong to isolate just one group because most if not all are guilty of it.

 

[Kenny]

I still however stand by everything else I said... the entire regional industry is one big whipsaw game, and it's wrong to isolate just one group because most if not all are guilty of it.

No I'll tell you what's wrong; whilst some Regionals, through no fault of their own, end up getting caught in the whole whipsaw game, there are others that are not only more inclined to do it but are expressly set up in order to undercut others. Gojets being one of them.

The comical thing about this thread is that the only people who try to justify applying to Gojets are those
who either aren't affected by their operation or those considering going there and are trying to make themselves feel better.

It's a bit like trying to justify working for Mesa or PFT. In the end it comes down to this; Karma's a b!tch and ultimately ends up biting you in the arse.

 

[Regul8r]

Hi Kenny. Does it keep you awake at night knowing that you have absolutely zero influence over the existence of GoJet and can do nothing about it? Why wait for "Karma" to do its magic? Just set a VooDoo spell on GoJet!

 

[Kenny]

Hi Kenny. Does it keep you awake at night knowing that you have absolutely zero influence over the existence of GoJet and can do nothing about it? Why wait for "Karma" to do its magic? Just set a VooDoo spell on GoJet!

Somewhat infantile post but no it doesn't keep me up at night.

 

[nwa_contrails]

No I'll tell you what's wrong; whilst some Regionals, through no fault of their own, end up getting caught in the whole whipsaw game, there are others that are not only more inclined to do it but are expressly set up in order to undercut others. Gojets being one of them.

The comical thing about this thread is that the only people who try to justify applying to Gojets are those
who either aren't affected by their operation or those considering going there and are trying to make themselves feel better.

It's a bit like trying to justify working for Mesa or PFT. In the end it comes down to this; Karma's a b!tch and ultimately ends up biting you in the arse.

Great post. Well-said.

 

[Freight Dog]

No I'll tell you what's wrong; whilst some Regionals, through no fault of their own, end up getting caught in the whole whipsaw game, there are others that are not only more inclined to do it but are expressly set up in order to undercut others. Gojets being one of them.

The comical thing about this thread is that the only people who try to justify applying to Gojets are those
who either aren't affected by their operation or those considering going there and are trying to make themselves feel better.

It's a bit like trying to justify working for Mesa or PFT. In the end it comes down to this; Karma's a b!tch and ultimately ends up biting you in the arse.

Kenny, you are absolutely right in your assessment that many regionals get caught in the whipsaw game. That's the name of the game if you choose to fly under the code of certain carriers.

You still didn't even address the difference between Mesaba/Comair situation and GoJet.

The legal decision with respect to single carrier status has been handed down years ago. Before this decision in 2005, I saw that very much as a threat to my job because of scope implications, and I was flying a Boeing thousands of miles away. As a result of creation of Freedom and GoJet, we made changes to our scope to specifically preclude this from happening to us at any level - holding company, airline, virtual airline, alter ego, interest, you name it... we listed it as specifically prohibited.

Now, I'm not at GoJet, and I wouldn't look at any GoJet pilot funny unless they were hired in 2005. There is a distinct difference between those hired pre-ruling and those ATA pilots hired post-shutdown. But then again, I choose to look at this situation objectively and not emotionally.

Once again, why is it that Comair is furloughing pilots and Mesaba is hiring? Why is ASA close to furloughing and Mesaba hiring like gangbusters? Why is Pinnacle about to hire while Comair is furloughing? All of them fly under the Delta brand. Do you not see what kind of Mongolian clusterf**k this is? Yet, GoJet is the source of all evil.

This industry, and ESPECIALLY the regional airline side is all kinds of f**ked up. For pilots to fight one another while the big fat cats are laughing all the way to the bank just plays into their hands. Yet so many regional pilots are simply myopic to the big picture and choose to focus their anger towards one particular airline, yet most are guilty of the same behavior.

 

[Regul8r]

Somewhat infantile post but no it doesn't keep me up at night.

Just a little tired of listening to pilots pontificating on the responsibilities of a "Good Pilot" according to their POV.

 

[CX880]

I don't understand though. A Trans States Airlines pilot, after all this is what it all boils down to, can't fly for Gojet. So what is the big deal, it's not and was never TSA flying from the beginning. I'm picturing a supermarket strike, those on strike can work for the supermarket anytime even after the strike. It's not exactly the same situation because GJ is not a scab operation, and TSA pilots weren't on strike, but Gojet pilots found jobs that were not in competition with TSA pilots because TSA pilots allowed the separate seniority list and therefore the separate company to happen. It's not as if Rich Leach and Hulas conspired to set up shop and not allow them to fly the CRJ700s. They caused the predicament so why is everyone whining? Sure they might say it was a noble cause to turn down the flying however, there is a difference between noble and stupidity towards one's company and future.Look at where TSA is now. And we have nothing to compare the good deed to since we sill never know what other airlines would have done. I think I have a pretty good idea though just by looking around.... And it's a further tragic because GJ is industry standard now as far as work rules. Those who caused the situation might say they'd proudly do it again and in all honesty it sounds very very dumb, what do you have to show for it? Over 100 pilots on furlough and the fleet down to 31 airplanes? Look at other regional airlines, everyone is undercutting, MESA in the last TA. They showed they were in it for themselves not the industry, now their contract is on par with GOJet! SKY, RAH. TSA pilots tried to do something noble but it was just a simple mistake, it's time to stop whining and focus on how to fix the GJ/TSA relationship. That is not by causing hate. GJ pilots didn't take anyones job, the slots wide open and not for TSA pilots to take, TSA pilots caused that and they need to realize that if they want to actually change anything. Most stop to understand the GJ situation at "they circumvent a CBA", but it's not as simple as that. GJ certificate itself is not the issue, after all, TSA pilots would have flown for the certificate.

 

[nwa_contrails]

I don't understand though. A Trans States Airlines pilot, after all this is what it all boils down to, can't fly for Gojet. So what is the big deal, it's not and was never TSA flying from the beginning. I'm picturing a supermarket strike, those on strike can work for the supermarket anytime even after the strike. It's not exactly the same situation because GJ is not a scab operation, and TSA pilots weren't on strike, but Gojet pilots found jobs that were not in competition with TSA pilots because TSA pilots allowed the separate seniority list and therefore the separate company to happen. It's not as if Rich Leach and Hulas conspired to set up shop and not allow them to fly the CRJ700s. They caused the predicament so why is everyone whining? Sure they might say it was a noble cause to turn down the flying however, there is a difference between noble and stupidity towards one's company and future.Look at where TSA is now. And we have nothing to compare the good deed to since we sill never know what other airlines would have done. I think I have a pretty good idea though just by looking around.... And it's a further tragic because GJ is industry standard now as far as work rules. Those who caused the situation might say they'd proudly do it again and in all honesty it sounds very very dumb, what do you have to show for it? Over 100 pilots on furlough and the fleet down to 31 airplanes? Look at other regional airlines, everyone is undercutting, MESA in the last TA. They showed they were in it for themselves not the industry, now their contract is on par with GOJet! SKY, RAH. TSA pilots tried to do something noble but it was just a simple mistake, it's time to stop whining and focus on how to fix the GJ/TSA relationship. That is not by causing hate. GJ pilots didn't take anyones job, the slots wide open and not for TSA pilots to take, TSA pilots caused that and they need to realize that if they want to actually change anything. Most stop to understand the GJ situation at "they circumvent a CBA", but it's not as simple as that. GJ certificate itself is not the issue, after all, TSA pilots would have flown for the certificate.

You like bold print, don't you?

 

[Freight Dog]

nwa, how about a meaningful argument. Got anything useful to say to contribute to the debate? I know where you stand, but how about arguing your point... it might help persuade or dissuade people from applying at GoJet or any other carrier for that matter.

 

[nwa_contrails]

I've said my piece, and you've said yours. GoJetters are scum and will always be. Merry Christmas.