Gojet Class Starts

[General Lee]

Neal,


The RJDC doesn't want to see the success of the Expressjet contract. In fact, they would say it wasn't a success since you weren't given the right to fly 737s. ALPA should have fought for you to fly all of the older CAL 737-500s----according to the RJDC guys..... If they want to fly bigger, or you want to fly bigger, then they and you should apply to CAL, and then your benefits and salary would eventually go up. I think your interpretation of your contract is correct. Congrats on the new contract.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Neal,


The RJDC doesn't want to see the success of the Expressjet contract. In fact, they would say it wasn't a success since you weren't given the right to fly 737s. ALPA should have fought for you to fly all of the older CAL 737-500s----according to the RJDC guys..... If they want to fly bigger, or you want to fly bigger, then they and you should apply to CAL, and then your benefits and salary would eventually go up. I think your interpretation of your contract is correct. Congrats on the new contract.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Thanks General. Sadly, the bolded part is what is truly the tragedy. In the utopian world, we would have one seniority list with CAL or at the minimum, a direct flow over there, but that boat was missed years ago sadly.

-Neal

 

[dispatchguy]

You know, it's funny and sad at the same time to watch pilots fight each other...

I think I'm going to go nuke a bag of popcorn and watch the show

 

[jetexas]

"HO Jets"

 

[HowlinMadMurdoc]

Neal,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I don't even claim to have the knowledge, wisdom, or experience to provide meaningful solutions - I have ideas but don't know their feasibility. You're right - local MEC's are "ALPA" for all line pilots and change only begins are the local level.

I do disagree that ALPA National should be political. Yes, they are there to represent airline pilots in our Legislative branch but it's my feeling that National has drifted too far, politically. Unfortunately, I feel that has come at the expense of building unity among the pilot groups.

Time will tell about our futures - we only hope for the best.

HMM

 

[767200]

There is a very very very simple solution to the TSA vs GoJets debate....

TSA.... STOP FLYING FOR AA!!!

Then there will be no need for GOJETS.


SO EVERYONE JUST SHUT UP AND BE DONE WITH THIS...

You CAN'T always have your CAKE and EAT it TOO!

I understand your frustration. We do not make the decision of who we fly for. BTW, YOU don't seem very bothered about Regions Air flying those J31s for AA....why? just because they are not Eagle planes or because they are "just J31s"

 

[TSA Pilot]

Now you sit here on this board and bitch that no one should go to GoJets, because they didn't have the balls to walk a picket line to get a NO ALTER EGO CLAUSE in their contract.

WE DO HAVE AN "ALTER EGO CLAUSE" IN OUR CONTRACT!!!

It states that "the company shall not create an alter-ego carrier to get around the terms of our contract" well the company is saying "we didnt create it to get around YOUR contract we did it to get around APA's contract so yours dont count. BS!! A grievance has been filed. ONE LIST!!

 

[Bankangle]

This has to be the most entertaining thread I've seen. Also sad at some of the immaturity. After seeing some of these post I doubt regional pilots will ever be able to work together to make RJ flying a better career for all it is in everyones best interest. If this thread is getting the exposure I think it is, I would recommend that some of you TSA guys not let your frustration/anger jeopardize the professional image of all RJ pilots.

 

[millhouse21]

Let me ask you this I guess....what exactly should/can National do to fix the woes of the industry? How would you do it if you were in their shoes? What are the problems of the regional jet pilot at the moment? How can National fix those problems? I have my own views on what the problems are and how to fix them but I'd like to hear some others as well.

-Neal

Well, I'm no expert but I do have an idea here. I noticed that my copmany's contract was signed by, among others, Duane Woerth. Apparently he must also approve these contracts. Has he ever declined to sign one because he thought it would be harmful to ALPA pilots as a whole? It seems to me that should be one of his primary functions; to see the big picture. Each individual MEC negotiates on it's own, but national must approve the results. I think there should be some guidelines put out by national and any contract not meeting them doesn't get signed.

Does national actually have to sign to make it legal? If so, would this work? What would the ramifications be? What happens if it ends up deadlocked because the company will not agree to the national standards? I don't know the answer to any of these questions which is why I'm asking. You asked for views so please don't flame too much.

 

[Bankangle]

I promised myself that this will be my last post on this issue.. If some of you think that any of you RJ guys have any kind of good union contract etc. etc. You are very mistaken. I have noticed that most if not all Regionals even XJT pay their copilots aprox $20/hr to start and after a couple of years they were still in the $30/hr range. I can only guess that health benefits for a guy with a family is aprox $400-500/mo. Plus dont forget the union dues. If you remind me of "oh how the senior guys make 100k+" it just shows the example of the " I got mine" or "its all about me" attitude. Please I am not bashing or trying to create a flame here. I think if ALPA and its members really gave a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**, this situation would'nt be happening. I paid my dues along time ago and it really saddens me that not much has'nt changed..except that RJs are taking over the majority of the industry and its hard to scratch out a living flying them.

 

[pianoman]

Well, I'm no expert but I do have an idea here. I noticed that my copmany's contract was signed by, among others, Duane Woerth. Apparently he must also approve these contracts. Has he ever declined to sign one because he thought it would be harmful to ALPA pilots as a whole? It seems to me that should be one of his primary functions; to see the big picture. Each individual MEC negotiates on it's own, but national must approve the results. I think there should be some guidelines put out by national and any contract not meeting them doesn't get signed.

Does national actually have to sign to make it legal? If so, would this work? What would the ramifications be? What happens if it ends up deadlocked because the company will not agree to the national standards? I don't know the answer to any of these questions which is why I'm asking. You asked for views so please don't flame too much.

I believe DW did refuse to sign a contract for CCAir a few years back. Perhaps someone else knows more about it. I agree that perhaps this would be in our best interest on the national level, but it's easy to say Nat'l ALPA should tell the carriers what to sign and what not to sign until it's your carrier and you don't agree with Nat'l. That's why they try and let individual MEC's chart their own courses most of the time.

That said I wish they would intervene a little more now and then and set some sort of national pay scale.

 

[100LL... Again!]

National pay scales will likely never work for one reason:

The guys who are making top wages will not be willing to strike over OTHER pilot's compensation.

This argument is fruitless. We do NOT really have a national union. We have dozens of individual unions loosely bound by a national organization that is strong when it wants to be, and weak when it wants to be.

 

[AviatorTx]

I think if ALPA and its members really gave a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**, this situation would'nt be happening. I paid my dues along time ago and it really saddens me that not much has'nt changed..except that RJs are taking over the majority of the industry and its hard to scratch out a living flying them.

Only a nationwide "minimum wage" per type of aircraft would solve this problem. Even then, this would ONLY work if all airlines were union, and ALL the unions agreed to meet at least the minimum wage. I'll go by a lotto ticket instead.

As long as the golden spem clubbers are lined up at the door to take the 20000 first year jobs, the rate will not go up. When, and only when the airlines cannot continue to fill the seats because of the poor pay, will you see a change. Again, I'll go buy a lotto ticket instead of waiting for this to happen.

 

[100LL... Again!]

I would never turn down anyone but a real scab.

What a little baby. I'll bet some of those guys have been ALPA for quite a while.

GO ahead and shake your tiny little fist, small man.

 

[Kaman]

Hello,
The problem is that ALPA is just as slow to react to market forces and changes in the industry as managment is. What is needed is a fundamental paradigm in shift pilot contracts and negotiations. This is going to be a painful process that take a generation or two of pilots to change. The bad news is that the change is not going to be one that is favorable to pilots from a compensation point of view. Use whatever metaphor you like i.e., "Pandora's Box is open", "Cat is out of the Bag", "Genie is out of the bottle", etc... The precedent is already set and a new generation of pilots are being weaned on the tripe the pilot training industry is selling about breaking into the airline pilot profession.
The GoJets thing is managment taking advantage of this situation, and GoJets is not going to be the first or last of this kind of thing. They know that there are plenty of pilots will line up for these, so-called "dream jobs". Pilots are individualist to begin with for the most part, it's what makes us good at "on-the-fly" decision-making. I personally don't feel animosity toward the Freedom or GoJets guys, but I am saddened and disappointed to the point of disillusionment with the entire airline flying thing.
I would never deny the jumpseat to anyone, but thats basically because we are a non-union carrier. However, I can't say I would be thrilled with letting them ride other than keeping politics out of the J/S or so I've been told by most of the pilots I've flown with. I guess this would open another argumant on the definition of a "SCAB", but I don't think that GoJets would be considered SCAB labor only because they aren't SCABS by the traditional definition, so thats where I'm coming from on the J/S. I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time.
Until ALPA's Executives grows a pair and stops pandering to the top 5% of the membership then we in the trenches will continue to find ourselves facing situations like GoJets again...

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead

 

[pianoman]

I would never turn down anyone but a real scab.

What a little baby. I'll bet some of those guys have been ALPA for quite a while.

GO ahead and shake your tiny little fist, small man.

Then they should know better than to go work there, as should you. No j/s. ALPA just held a rally for the TSA pilots to try and stop this. That should be enough of an indication for anyone in the industry to avoid that place like the plague.

 

[ex j-41]

As long as the golden spem clubbers are lined up at the door to take the 20000 first year jobs, the rate will not go up. When, and only when the airlines cannot continue to fill the seats because of the poor pay, will you see a change. Again, I'll go buy a lotto ticket instead of waiting for this to happen.

We have all been there. It is because we have no choice. How many
times have you been told that you have to pay your dues. Well this
is what they are talking about. It sucks, but don't blame the newbies
cause they didn't negotiate the wage. ALPA and its MEC's did.
What new hire got to sit in front of HR and negotiate a their pay?

If you want to work in this industry then you have to live under the
rules and regulations set forth by your predecessors.

 

[135 Rocks!]

100LL...Again...

Your right on..... I have seen how ALPA treats the regionals over the years. Experienced it first hand. They can careless about anyone flying at a regional/commuter. Its always as a earlier poster said.. the "I got mine" attitude.

A cohort of mine is starting class there. He is a furloughed and got the blessing from his Union to work there. If there is alot of furloughed 121 guys going there I would be carefull of threating any list.. It could back fire on you for these guys will be back at the Big Show before any TSA guys will, also they have been in this small world business alot longer.

Right on, I'm one of those, and there are fuloughed pilots from several carriers represented in the first 3 classes that I know of personally. So when things turn around, and they will, we will have our own list of those that refused jumpseats.
Make sure that your current job is where you want to stay for your entire career, cuz my big brothers are watching my back now and when you come knocking for a job. You commuters are the last thing they care about.
Sorry, just stating the truth.
GO GoJet!

 

[BlackPilot628]

Right on, I'm one of those, and there are fuloughed pilots from several carriers represented in the first 3 classes that I know of personally. So when things turn around, and they will, we will have our own list of those that refused jumpseats.
Make sure that your current job is where you want to stay for your entire career, cuz my big brothers are watching my back now and when you come knocking for a job. You commuters are the last thing they care about.
Sorry, just stating the truth.
GO GoJet!

135 and Bankangle; Well said.
I'm not saying I totally agree with the Gojets airline, But I have some friends that left Corpex to go over.(About 6 people) They went to Go jets and I went to CHQ. I'm a firm believer in people needing jobs and if they think that's the best or only opportunity at the time, then they should take it. I'm not pretending to have some of the experience that much of you have, as I'm still a young thumper(23); but I don't see where refusing pilot the jumpseat is going to help your cause. They will just not jumpseat on TSA. Do you really think a UAL or America West guy is going to care about this and deny a Gojets pilot the jumpseat. He!! no. Their going to say get on, they don't have time for that. Then what are you going to do, Start dening UAL pilots your jumposeat? See how that works for you. The biggest problem I've seen in the airline industry thus far and post 9-11; is that everyone is against each other. (Everyone being airlines) How come us as pilots can't come together and all do they same thing, most of us tend to have the same views. If we would stick together no management could touch us. That whole southern comfort Piedmont days went out to door. We all need to stick together and do what will be right for us. But, as Bankangle said, Don't burn your bridges, you may be furloughed someday in need of feeding your wife and kids, keeping your mortgage up to date, and the pretty little BMW you drive. Once again, I don't pretend to have been in the industry that long, but I have eyes and ears just as everyone else does.

Good Luck TSA and GOjets guys, I hope you all come to some type of agreement.

 

[airjackson]

135ROCKS, It's a reach to even give you the bother of a reply, since you are more than likely full of $hit and only posting flame bait, but just in case.

Since you obviously have zero experience in airlines, here's a little lesson. Jumpseating is only allowed when a reciprocal jumpseat agreement exists between two carriers. Outside of that, there is no jumpseating. I will go out on a limb here and propose that GOJET will have an extremely hard time negotiating many reciprocal agreements with other carriers. So really, all of this hot air being expended is a waste since the poor GOJET pilot will, in all likelihood, not even get past the gate agent.

As for your veiled threat to "start your own list". Go ahead. And good luck. Seriously, think about your position. You are hopelessly wrong in your understanding of this industry and where the overwhelming sentiment is on the GOJET issue. Ask around. please. It's for your own good.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

There are jobs out there for those that look for them. I have no sympathy for anyone that goes to an airline like GoJet. All this stuff about it being the last resort and being desperate for work is bullshish. I know plenty of furloughed Independence guys that have found work at other reputable regionals. Anyone who takes a job with GoJet is doing so out of personal greed, plain and simple.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

...... doing so out of personal greed, plain and simple.

The American Way (Dream)

 

[Traderd]

There are jobs out there for those that look for them. I have no sympathy for anyone that goes to an airline like GoJet. All this stuff about it being the last resort and being desperate for work is bullshish. I know plenty of furloughed Independence guys that have found work at other reputable regionals. Anyone who takes a job with GoJet is doing so out of personal greed, plain and simple.

If they are able to get a job with a reputable regional airline, how does greed enter into the decision to accept employment with GoJet? Is GoJet paying pilots a better wage than the reputable regionals?

 

[SkyBoy1981]

The American Way (Dream)

Even if it involves screwing fellow pilots. Yeah, real classy.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

If they are able to get a job with a reputable regional airline, how does greed enter into the decision to accept employment with GoJet? Is GoJet paying pilots a better wage than the reputable regionals?

Obviously for a quick upgrade potential on a new 70 seat aircraft.....

 

[Reebo]

Right on, I'm one of those, and there are fuloughed pilots from several carriers represented in the first 3 classes that I know of personally. So when things turn around, and they will, we will have our own list of those that refused jumpseats.
Make sure that your current job is where you want to stay for your entire career, cuz my big brothers are watching my back now and when you come knocking for a job. You commuters are the last thing they care about.
Sorry, just stating the truth.
GO GoJet!

you are so full of s*it. which airlines currently have pilots on furlough? US,NW,UA,DL,AA, and Indy Air. five of the six are represented by ALPA, and your airline was primarily created to bypass the scope of the sixth. where in that equation does big brother come in and watch your back? you are taking jobs away from a ALPA carrier. i hope you enjoy your CAREER at Blow Jets. Blow Jets is based in STL and Trans States is the largest carrier, so dont expect a ride home anytime soon. its real simple NO AGREEMENT, NO RIDE!

 

[limodriver1]

Give them a break!

Isn't definition of Scab different than situation at companys like GOjet , freedom Air. republic airways...

Why don't you guys loosening up!

Yeah, I said it!

There is bigger things to worry than spelling, your ego...

If all the airlines would start charging real price from planetickets, situationslike this would be solved. No more LCC .

If you want to travel cheap take a buss.

 

[Yank McCobb]

Isn't definition of Scab different than happends in GOjet , freedom etc. situation

Why don't loosening up!

Is there anyone out there that can help me with an ENGLISH translation of this?!?

 

[Traderd]

Obviously for a quick upgrade potential on a new 70 seat aircraft.....

Thanks, but if the newhires at GoJet are going to be banned from all other airline flying, won't that translate into stagnation in terms of upgrades from FO to Captain? I assume you mean upgrade to a 70 seat even if they remain an FO.

 

[say again]

Is there anyone out there that can help me with an ENGLISH translation of this?!?

You aren't kidding!!! Any litterate translation will do.