From the ALPA Age 60 Website...

[Falconjet]

My thoughts haven't changed. If I want to donate money to lawmakers in an effort to support my views, I will have to do that on my own. Giving money to ALPA PAC so they can lobby for things I don't agree with would be kind of self defeating.

FJ

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

My thoughts haven't changed. If I want to donate money to lawmakers in an effort to support my views, I will have to do that on my own. Giving money to ALPA PAC so they can lobby for things I don't agree with would be kind of self defeating.

FJ

incomplete repsonse...what about the other issues that where brought up.

In addition, if we don't have a voice on open skies/foreign control it won't matter if we win age 60. You and most of us be invited not to be airline pilots before we reach age60. Juan and Xiang will fly our jets for us...

Also it was brought up on how ALPA changed to its memberships wishes on FFDO.

It's like you've almost given up FJ. Why not continue to work the issue?

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Because I believe you are being myopic. Besides if you don't give to ALPA-PAC over one issue then where is the ammo for the rest of the issues: fatigue, contam runway safety, cargo safety/security, FFDO, foreign control, etc...?............

Because the other side that want Age65 is giving lots of cash.

Also, have you been drafting resolutions for your LEC meetings? There are lots of LEC and MEC's that are passing unanimous resolutions for ALPA to keep age 60.

Your thoughts?

your just confusing the issue. alpa is a democratic organization run for the members. it is not acting in that manner on the most important issue facing the union. age 60.

if alpa cannot protect its foundation which age 60 is a major part of it should crumble.

john prater wants age 65 to occur the same reason any other 55+ pilot wants it so he can extend his career. but extending those careers for the 55+ crowd does the exact opposite of what jp says he's fighting for by creating a surplus of qualified pilots, hurting the majority who are the current future alpa supporters, and creating a windfall for a small group who got us into the current position after two decades of mistakes.

alpa is the organization who should be giving lots of cash to fight any change to age 60 because it is in alignment with its democratic priorities and purpose for being. alpa should be using my dues to fund the status quo that benfits the majority of alpa members and just so you are not confused that means keeping age 60 as it currently is written.

if you want to appease the age 65 crowd make a change that effects the next generation of atp pilots. then the age discrimination claim would be satisfied and the world would being treating the future pilots as fairly as those of today.

 

[Freight Dog]

Rez... how do I know ALPA is going to fight fatigue, contaminated runways issue, safety, etc. when they folded with Age 60? Past performance speaks volumes. Look back the last 7 years and tell me what did ALPA accomplish?

Think of this as one's creditworthiness... are you going to extend credit to someone who doesn't pay their bills? If you have any brains, the answer is no.

Same goes with ALPA-PAC as far as I'm concerned. It's bad enough that 1.95% of our income goes to union dues. Ironically, ALPA has one of the most expensive union dues in the country.

When ALPA stops being a wet noodle, and gets some balls, I'll resume contributions to ALPA-PAC. Until then.... gotta save my money because they're selling me and the majority down the river.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

your just confusing the issue. alpa is a democratic organization run for the members. it is not acting in that manner on the most important issue facing the union. age 60.

You guys need to get off the "members have spoken you WILL act" mantra. I agree democracy rules, but it is not black and white..meaning if the guys that are minding the store have something to say...why not listen.

You guys aren't listening... all you are doing is being mad cause your will isn't being address directly and without discuss. It doesn't work this way.....as much as you'd like.

You are like a client demanding his lawyer do something without listening to counsel.

if alpa cannot protect its foundation which age 60 is a major part of it should crumble.

this statement is incredibly superfical. The foundation?

john prater wants age 65 to occur the same reason any other 55+ pilot wants it so he can extend his career. but extending those careers for the 55+ crowd does the exact opposite of what jp says he's fighting for by creating a surplus of qualified pilots, hurting the majority who are the current future alpa supporters, and creating a windfall for a small group who got us into the current position after two decades of mistakes.

I am not sure JP wants age65 to occur. I think he is pragmatically looking at the landscape....are you?

alpa is the organization who should be giving lots of cash to fight any change to age 60 because it is in alignment with its democratic priorities and purpose for being. alpa should be using my dues to fund the status quo that benfits the majority of alpa members and just so you are not confused that means keeping age 60 as it currently is written.

So if democracy says we should elimnate all taxes then we should? The masses don't have responsibility of the results...

Lots of cash? From where dues money? What about the guys that don't want age 60? what about their dues money? Should they get to take thier portion of the dues money and fight your portion of the dues money?

if you want to appease the age 65 crowd make a change that effects the next generation of atp pilots. then the age discrimination claim would be satisfied and the world would being treating the future pilots as fairly as those of today.

If age 60/65 was discrimination then wouldn't the lawsuit have been over a long time ago?


I am not against your position. All I am saying is you are going about it all wrong. To put blunt, many of you are comung across as pouting kids. Not getting your way..... Age 60 is a political issue. You've got to get in the trenches. A poll and dues money with the order to JP to charge isn't going to cut it. that is just the way it is...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

how do I know ALPA is going to fight fatigue, contaminated runways issue, safety, etc. when they folded with Age 60? Past performance speaks volumes. Look back the last 7 years and tell me what did ALPA accomplish?

Are you serious? This statement simply indicates that you are a submarine member... only surfaceing when something is important for you...

Think of this as one's creditworthiness... are you going to extend credit to someone who doesn't pay their bills? If you have any brains, the answer is no.

Get connected man...

Same goes with ALPA-PAC as far as I'm concerned. It's bad enough that 1.95% of our income goes to union dues. Ironically, ALPA has one of the most expensive union dues in the country.

Most expensive? How about value? Most unions don't have a safety department. One FAA admin stated that ALPA was the conscience of the airline industry. IOW, they are repsected on the Hill. What is that worth to you?

When ALPA stops being a wet noodle, and gets some balls, I'll resume contributions to ALPA-PAC. Until then.... gotta save my money because they're selling me and the majority down the river.

This is going to take years... do you have what it takes to stick with it. To become a player in Age60 or just a spectator. You've got to change your mentality if you want age 60 to remain. The fight is far from over, but if you are this mad then you aren't going to effect change...

 

[Falconjet]

Rez: believe it or not if the Age 60 thing goes down the way I think it will I might actually one of the beneficiaries, if I could use such a word in connection with the change.

I personally don't want to have to work to age 65 before I can retire and so I don't want to have my progression delayed so others can have a windfall. More than that I think that a change would be grossly unfair to those who are furloughed, and I happen to agree that there is a safety issue involved as well. Obviously many agree and disagree with me on all of those issues.

If the change is implemented with a built in delay it might actually allow me to progress normally AND be able to work to 65 should I want to. That could happen. I am still against a change for the reasons above.

My concern is not just over this issue and/or how it might effect ME.

My issue is why isn't MY union leadership doing everything it can to carry out the will of the majority of its members? If you want to accuse me of being a single issue constituent, at least get the single issue right.

I want representation, not my way. Until Capt Prater has convinced me that he is looking out for the interests of the majority I will not even consider paying more than my dues to the organization. We may lose the battle over age 60, but I want to at least see a fair fight, not complete surrender at the first sign of hostilities.

FJ

 

[Freight Dog]

Get connected man...

Most expensive? How about value? Most unions don't have a safety department. One FAA admin stated that ALPA was the conscience of the airline industry. IOW, they are repsected on the Hill. What is that worth to you?

I'm not talking about ALPA's evolution from way back when. I'm talking last 7 years. That's almost a decade. What has ALPA done with regards to:

1) Cargo Cabotage (Allowed it to happen)
2) A-plans (Allowed the Wall Street to walk away with them)
3) Concessionary bargaining/management accountability (Blindly agreeing to unnecessary contracts)
4) Division amongst our ranks between Regional/Mainline pilots (RJDC bullsh*t)
5) Age 60 (About to change because "the conscience of the airline industry" is once again about to fold)
6) Open skies with EU (ALPA is "concerned." Start the Pink Ribbon Panel already!!!)
7) TSA abuse of crewmembers (Been going on since after 9/11 with lip service from ALPA).

Need I go on?

This is going to take years... do you have what it takes to stick with it. To become a player in Age60 or just a spectator. You've got to change your mentality if you want age 60 to remain. The fight is far from over, but if you are this mad then you aren't going to effect change...

Look Rez... ALPA is an outdated organization. You can't compare the accomplishments of ALPA's founders to the current events. Apples and Potatoes (not even close enough to be apples and oranges).

ALPA founders used OUTSIDE-OF-THE-BOX thinking to get things changed. Today's ALPA can't think outside of the box if the outside of the box bitchslapped them twice and kicked them in the ass. It is no longer a union. No more teeth in ALPA. Because of that, the management and the government both lost their respect for us. That is why you see this endless pattern of bullsh*t.

Would you do a Pinnacle Summer of Love to finally get a decent contract kinda like UAL pilots did back in 2000? Oh heavens no! You wouldn't want to do that. It's all about being pragmatic, right? UAL pilots proved in 2000 that the management only understands being kicked in the balls because being pragmatic does not work. Now it's government's turn to learn if ALPA has any fight left in it. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear so.

Brother... I think it's you that needs to get connected. ALPA is SERIOUSLY f**ked up, and when it gets off its ass and gets beyond the flashy worded circle-jerk, you better believe I'll be there.

Until then.... SAVE YOUR MONEY!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

My issue is why isn't MY union leadership doing everything it can to carry out the will of the majority of its members? If you want to accuse me of being a single issue constituent, at least get the single issue right.

Nothing has happened yet! Except the outgoing FAA Admin has said NPRM. Are you concerned because ALPA hasn't screamed HELL NO from Mass Ave over K street so everyone on the Hill can hear?

I don't get it?

I want representation, not my way. Until Capt Prater has convinced me that he is looking out for the interests of the majority I will not even consider paying more than my dues to the organization. We may lose the battle over age 60, but I want to at least see a fair fight, not complete surrender at the first sign of hostilities.

What leads you to believe there has been a surrender? Can Prater have a pragmatic, methodical, patient plan? Or does he need to be screaming just to satisfy the needs of the membership...

IOW... wait and see how this plays out before you start withholding support and resources....


Fair?

 

[kwick]

The only reason this is even an issue is because regional airline pilots are included in the survey. I was a commuter airline pilot and I wanted more than anything to get on with an airline flying big jets. I always wanted to learn from the more experienced pilots. I respected seniority. If we could all increase our flying by five years, I was all for it. I would not be a guy that relished an upgrade at the expense of the guys that taught me. I paid my dues, now pay yours, and stop whining.