From the ALPA Age 60 Website...

[Rez O. Lewshun]

with you being so full of solutions, why don't you suggest one? I've told you several times what my solutions were.

My solutions are to increase PAC particaption, increase LEC voter particaption, increase LEC meeting attendance. My solutions are to build larger and more effective LEC and MEC legislative affairs committee's. Thus the coordinated actions of more pilots can be used to effect postive change on CapHill.

There is a demonstration on May 17th in DC. The pilot turn out, I fear, will be pretty weak.

Sorry there isn't instant gratification, one shot one kill, barvado and sensationalism listed above, like an SOS... but that isn't the way it is done... Politcs is a slow grey beast. We can't be content for years (age 60) and do nothing to prepare for change.

The problem is in Jan. the FAA said age 60 will change. One of many reasons why is because they knew ALPA was only so effective. What if they knew ALPA was such a signifiacant force that the FAA had to be very careful? It certainly is possbile if we ALPA pilots were policitically saavy and strong.

Are you saying the BRP is the way to go? Do you think it sends the correct message to airline managements and other government bodies who want to see cabotage, open skies, etc.?

One the big problems ALPA has had on CapHill is mixed messages. At certain times CapHill just shut out the pilots becuase there where too many viewpoints from too many different groups....

What is difficult for us is to hash out our differences before we go to the Hill with a unifed single message. Any other way is self defeating. As you can see from this message board topic we don't agree, so how can we go to the Hill?

Also, while you're at it, please tell me when and how being pragmatic ever benefited this profession?

My two responses above apply here...

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[Flopgut]

Are you saying the BRP is the way to go? Do you think it sends the correct message to airline managements and other government bodies who want to see cabotage, open skies, etc.?

Whoa! That's a good point. Is Prater going to have another BRP when they decide cabotage is a great idea?

 

[Flopgut]

Rez! I can't entirely disagree with the way you're thinking, but it's getting too late in the game. Sure, pragmatisim suits a game of inches. But this is big league time, we're supposed to be pros. We have a lot of franchise players who make a lot of money...Somebody: MAKE A PLAY! A big play. Change the momentum of this game!

I think your solutions are too little too late Rez. Maybe if we could get everybody interested in something like the railroad retirements your reserved approach would work? (I'll pledge 10 grand right now if ALPA would go after something like that instead of age 65) In the absence of that, I think we would all be better off seeking a new union.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Whoa! That's a good point. Is Prater going to have another BRP when they decide cabotage is a great idea?

Repsectfully, waiting till the last night to study and prepare for finals isn't the way to go. I've tried it and it doesn't work. Wanna see my GPA? We've got to prepare way in advance...

Trying to lose 30lbs the night before your wedding so you can fight into that white dress doesn't work.

Rez! I can't entirely disagree with the way you're thinking, but it's getting too late in the game. Sure, pragmatisim suits a game of inches. But this is big league time, we're supposed to be pros. We have a lot of franchise players who make a lot of money...Somebody: MAKE A PLAY! A big play. Change the momentum of this game!

They way we win games is inch by inch... counting on hail mary TD passes and Grand Slam home runs sure sells tickets and is pure sensastionalism... On CapHill there are no fancy plays, dramatic actions or innovative cutting edge political moves that no one has heard of.....

ALPA can't approach a congressmen at the 11th hour and convince him/her to vote our way. Relationships, trust and alliances take along time... If I just met you and asked to borrow $100 you'd probably say no. But if we were friends for years you wouldn't even ask why...

I think your solutions are too little too late Rez. Maybe if we could get everybody interested in something like the railroad retirements your reserved approach would work? (I'll pledge 10 grand right now if ALPA would go after something like that instead of age 65) In the absence of that, I think we would all be better off seeking a new union.

Nothing wrong with ALPA. ALPA is well respected on CapHill by Congressmen, FAA, NTSB, and others... ALPA just needs more ammo and resources. When the ALPA lobbyist go to CapHill and say we have 100% of our membership supporting your office congressman, will you support us... in reality ALPA says we got 14%. Only 14% of ALPA pilots help our lobbyist help us...

My solutions are not too late. It is the way to get things done. There is plenty of time to get prepared for foreign control, age 60, cabatoge and the next group of issues.



If we step up our education and particaption....in other words our activism then we can succeed. What do we have to lose? Only the status quo.

Your thoughts?

 

[Flopgut]

Rez: You'd be great 15-25 years ago; right on the money. However, we can't keep on with the old, failed coping mechanisms ALPA has/is relying on. Something has to be outside the box for it to work real changes in our situation.

I like the railroad pension idea (obviously) and I think it's the sort of thing we should push in the highly political game we find ourselves in. It's the sort of thing we should be countering with rather than age 65. OR, more importantly, maybe use it as a companion issue to the retirement age debate! Do they really want to just be like ICAO, or would they rather give us a quasi answer that pulls us apart? We have been held to the terms of the RLA forever, It's time we push for the rest of the equation! Give us the same retirement program or drop the RLA and let us really be like ICAO!

Seriously, can I get some feedback on this? If this were the sort of issue ALPA was working on, ALPA PAC would have 50 million, just for this issue, in 6 months.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez: You'd be great 15-25 years ago; right on the money. However, we can't keep on with the old, failed coping mechanisms ALPA has/is relying on. Something has to be outside the box for it to work real changes in our situation.

Well... 15-20 years ago the congressional fund raising was a defined season. Now it is simply full time. Campaigns cost money....

There will always be a crisis issue ready to redefine a pilots expectation. Just like age 60.

ALPA Pilot member activisim has always been low. Why not try it? When the DAL pilots objected to the USAIR take over DAL pilots lined the congressional hearing chanber in full uniform. It worked! Are ALPA pilots ready to move?

You say something ? Like what? tell me..

I like the railroad pension idea (obviously) and I think it's the sort of thing we should push in the highly political game we find ourselves in. It's the sort of thing we should be countering with rather than age 65. OR, more importantly, maybe use it as a companion issue to the retirement age debate! Do they really want to just be like ICAO, or would they rather give us a quasi answer that pulls us apart? We have been held to the terms of the RLA forever, It's time we push for the rest of the equation! Give us the same retirement program or drop the RLA and let us really be like ICAO!

I agree. Management loves the RLA..combined with a pro management NMB... the RLA sucks... We need more congressmen who support us... sorry but its back to the PAC for solutions.. we've got to get our PAC % up. Right now its at 14%. That is quite the minority...

Seriously, can I get some feedback on this? If this were the sort of issue ALPA was working on, ALPA PAC would have 50 million, just for this issue, in 6 months.

You'd think the PAC would have that much money.... I wish it did...

With more activism you could influence the PAC steering committee and EC/EB to go full HARD CORE on age 60. You'd be a political power house...

 

[PCL_128]

I like the railroad pension idea (obviously) and I think it's the sort of thing we should push in the highly political game we find ourselves in. It's the sort of thing we should be countering with rather than age 65. OR, more importantly, maybe use it as a companion issue to the retirement age debate! Do they really want to just be like ICAO, or would they rather give us a quasi answer that pulls us apart? We have been held to the terms of the RLA forever, It's time we push for the rest of the equation! Give us the same retirement program or drop the RLA and let us really be like ICAO!

Seriously, can I get some feedback on this? If this were the sort of issue ALPA was working on, ALPA PAC would have 50 million, just for this issue, in 6 months.

Your idea has merit, but discussing it on flightinfo will not bring about any progress. Draft a resolution directing ALPA to research your idea, pass it at your next Local Council meeting, and then move it up the ladder to the MEC and EC. That's how progress is made.

 

[Flopgut]

PCL: Thanks for the input. If ALPA weren't non-functional, that might work. Frankly, why have they not thought up something like this themselves already? It's because they are more of an "activist" type organization and less a union. They are more interested in "taking it back" just so they can give it up again. I want to hear and support thinking that equates to: never again!

 

[PCL_128]

PCL: Thanks for the input. If ALPA weren't non-functional, that might work.

Sounds like a cop-out to me. Andy keeps calling for Captain Prater's recall, yet he does nothing to bring it about. You keep talking about your RR-style pension, yet you won't bring a resolution to start working on the idea. I see nothing on this board but a bunch of complainers. No one wants to actually get to work on changing things. They'd rather sit back and attack the people that actually are doing something.

 

[Flopgut]

Look PCL, I know Prater. Not super well, but I've been hoping he would lead the union, or manage our expectations in some way that we can feel comfortable. That hope is evaporating quickly, however.

Frieght Dog has a heck of a good point. Can we expect that other union issues opposed by the membership majority will be handled in this way? A BRP and an active lack of representation on the issue? As long as the issue has a similiar "silver lining" for the soon to be retired [senior]? Really starting to stink around here.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Look PCL, I know Prater. Not super well, but I've been hoping he would lead the union,

There can be no leadership without followership.....

 

[Flopgut]

This isn't a dictatorship. ALPA's official, majority position is to oppose a change to the retirement age change, he's basically ignoring it. A majority of the membership will understand cabotage is a bad thing and want our elected leaders to oppose it. Will he also ignore that if there is some sort of windfall for the minority?

The more we discuss this, I'm starting to think he should be recalled!

 

[Freight Dog]

There can be no leadership without followership.....

Well said. Just as there can be no followership without leadership. Unfortunately, I think that's the case right now.

 

[airfogey]

I would like to see an honest poll--ALPA would not allow any pro change info during their "discussion" two years ago prior to that poll,and I'm told that they used "statistical norming" to get the results they wanted. Lets see since that time USAIRWAYS east, Delta, and United have lost their pensions and the big elephant in the room is that since last Nov 23 pilots over 60 from airlines from all over the world have been able to fly in OUR airspace--so if ALPA wants to appease their young crewmembers and not change age 60 they better sure as hell push to not allow pilots from other countries to fly in our skies over age 60 while ours can't. Oh by the way Canadian ALPA members can fly to 65--must be the superior health care in their socialized medical system.
Finally, to all of you who want to make any change "fair" by phasing it in gradually, they sure didn't phase it in gradually 47 years ago. And BTW ALPA fought the rule tooth and nail during a time when the airlines were regulated, airlines didn't go out of business-the CAB arranged mergers with stronger carriers, pilots didn't usually get hired over 30-everybody had a 30 year career and had a stable pension--Yet ALPA fought it because it was discrimnation until the younger crewmembers outvoted the older crewmembers.

Airfogey

 

[Andy]

Andy keeps calling for Captain Prater's recall, yet he does nothing to bring it about.

These things take time. I'm not going to go rushing into a union meeting and call for Prater's recall tomorrow. Unless you're stupid, and I don't think you are, you know that such a measure would fail if not properly executed. I am not going to hastily rush into pushing for a recall; there is still time before the NPRM hits the streets.

How's that ALPA poll coming along? Will the entire membership be polled or just a select few? Will Prater actually follow the direction of the poll? And MOST importantly, does the poll discuss the stance that ALPA should take toward age 60 changes (like dump this 'pragmatic' garbage)?
I'll wait until I see the polling results and will guage my actions based on that.

And by posting my opinion on this board, an opinion shared by many others, the message DOES get back to ALPA national. We are the majority on this issue, although we have been quiet.

To throw out such a challenge to me - push for the immediate recall of Prater at a union meeting - is flamebaiting at it's worst. You know full well that there are far better intermediate measures to take. Besides, I'd like to get a few more ex-furloughees back before pushing for resolutions that would be favored by those of us who have been on the streets for the last five years.
Nice try PCl, but I'm not going to do something foolish as a result of your flamebaiting and I'm not going to be silent on this issue.
If you disapprove of open discussion on this forum, then I'd suggest that you disengage yourself from here.

 

[Andy]

I would like to see an honest poll--ALPA would not allow any pro change info during their "discussion" two years ago prior to that poll,and I'm told that they used "statistical norming" to get the results they wanted. Lets see since that time USAIRWAYS east, Delta, and United have lost their pensions and the big elephant in the room is that since last Nov 23 pilots over 60 from airlines from all over the world have been able to fly in OUR airspace--so if ALPA wants to appease their young crewmembers and not change age 60 they better sure as hell push to not allow pilots from other countries to fly in our skies over age 60 while ours can't.

Airfogey, we are in agreement on pro change information; it should be disseminated to the membership. Along with information on why to keep the status quo.
As for what other ICAO countries do, that is not something that US ALPA or the US government has control over. You are dealing with sovereignty issues. Or do you suggest that the US withdraw from ICAO?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

As for what other ICAO countries do, that is not something that US ALPA or the US government has control over. You are dealing with sovereignty issues. Or do you suggest that the US withdraw from ICAO?

Thru the Open Skies negotiations there is plenty of control...

 

[BluDevAv8r]

How's that ALPA poll coming along? Will the entire membership be polled or just a select few?

The poll has been completed. 1100 pilots were polled in a statistically random fashion by the Wilson Polling Center. However, a web survey will be made available next week for the rest of the month that is open to all ALPA pilots (including apprentice members).

Will Prater actually follow the direction of the poll?

For starters, the policy is already set - to oppose any changes to age 60 on the basis of safety. That said, Captain Prater doesn't have the ability to change policy on this issue. The only body that can change the policy is the Executive Board (all MEC Chairmen) or the Board of Directors (all local elected representatives in ALPA).

And MOST importantly, does the poll discuss the stance that ALPA should take toward age 60 changes (like dump this 'pragmatic' garbage)?

I'm not sure I understand the question. The poll is an attempt to accurate gauge member sentiment on this divisive issue in order to help the Executive Board and the rest of the ALPA leadership form a strategy for the future on this issue.

And by posting my opinion on this board, an opinion shared by many others, the message DOES get back to ALPA national. We are the majority on this issue, although we have been quiet.

Actually, it really doesn't....maybe to a few reps who read this board, but not to the majority of the elected officials. This is not a proper channel of communication by any means, especially since full names aren't used, etc.

-Neal

 

[Andy]

The poll has been completed. 1100 pilots were polled in a statistically random fashion by the Wilson Polling Center. However, a web survey will be made available next week for the rest of the month that is open to all ALPA pilots (including apprentice members).

That's the first that I've heard of a web survey. When does ALPA plan on telling the membership?

For starters, the policy is already set - to oppose any changes to age 60 on the basis of safety. That said, Captain Prater doesn't have the ability to change policy on this issue. The only body that can change the policy is the Executive Board (all MEC Chairmen) or the Board of Directors (all local elected representatives in ALPA).

While Captain Prater doesn't have the ability to change policy, his words and actions are in direct conflict with ALPA policy. What actions have the Executive Board and the Board of Directors have taken on this matter?

I'm not sure I understand the question. The poll is an attempt to accurate gauge member sentiment on this divisive issue in order to help the Executive Board and the rest of the ALPA leadership form a strategy for the future on this issue.

Does the poll account for Prater's current actions where he's assisting the FAA in implementing the change?

Actually, it really doesn't....maybe to a few reps who read this board, but not to the majority of the elected officials. This is not a proper channel of communication by any means, especially since full names aren't used, etc.

It's not the reps that communicate on this board; it's the membership. You know, the ones who elect the reps. This board allows the membership to share ideas which they take back to their indidual councils.
Step back and consider the people who use this board. Don't think in narrow terms of direct communication with ALPA national.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It's not the reps that communicate on this board; it's the membership. You know, the ones who elect the reps. This board allows the membership to share ideas which they take back to their indidual councils.
Step back and consider the people who use this board. Don't think in narrow terms of direct communication with ALPA national.

Message boards like this may help influence other members but they are not nor is any ALPA message board a valid communications conduit for any elected rep.