What if we did nothing Rez? What if we removed ourselves from the process and let them do what they are going to do? It's just a number someone pulled from their a$$ so no matter what they are going to do with it, in the end it will still benefit/hurt the same number of pilots in aggregate. Prater refuses to do what his membership wants and instead chooses to cozy up to this because he likes it; he wants the benefit slanted to a certain group. This blatant lack of unity at our highest level is colosially bad. He should have done exactly what the APA guy did (stern letter to MB) and then excused us from the process.
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What if we did nothing Rez? What if we removed ourselves from the process and let them do what they are going to do? It's just a number someone pulled from their a$$ so no matter what they are going to do with it, in the end it will still benefit/hurt the same number of pilots in aggregate. Prater refuses to do what his membership wants and instead chooses to cozy up to this because he likes it; he wants the benefit slanted to a certain group. This blatant lack of unity at our highest level is colosially bad. He should have done exactly what the APA guy did (stern letter to MB) and then excused us from the process.
Rez O. Lewshun
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Who si they? Congress? FAA? Gov't
I spoke with Prater over two days... I didn't get this impression. I am not saying your belief is not realistic... though. I just have a different opinion...
Have you communicated with the BRP (even I think it is a weak name..)? I fear that assumptions are being made and cooler heads are cooling down... I am not saying your concerns are not valid...
Sounds defeatist. The unity issue is a major problem. I'd like to think that we could still work other issues such as open skies. We need to keep it issue orientated.
Can you explain how "excused us from the process" would be benificial?
I've been an ALPA member in good standing since joining in 1999. My prior employer, for whom I flew for from 1986 to 1999, did not have ALPA on property.
However, it looks like I was shack on as to your age; I notice how you dodged that portion of my post.
You've been an ALPA member for more than 25 years. That means that you've seen at LEAST four downturns in the airline industry. Did you not learn to save for the future and for a rainy day in ALL THAT TIME? Did you think that somehow your retirement would not be an issue?
I love people like you, who FINALLY have the clue bird dump some feces on your shoulder so late in the game, and then run out and try to change the rules to fix their screwup. It's like blaming your copilot when you pound in a landing.
Again, giving regional pilots a date of hire at the airlines that own them fits your special needs.
I flew another 121 operation prior to being hired by United. It was VERY clear to me why some pilots were never able to be hired by majors. Not in all cases; some just had bad luck, but I'd bet that you fall in the former category.
Some people catch on to this here airline stuff faster than others. It's not rocket surgery. :laugh:
Paid their dues? So have I. 1.95%. :laugh:
Or are you referring to how you've suffered through the airline system while others (ie ex-mil) have taken the easy route to a major? We all have a choice as to which path we want our career to take. The career path of an airline pilot has always been very clearcut. We ALL paid our dues. Leave the arrogance at the door; you have no reason to be arrogant.
Leapfrog the seniority list? I didn't leapfrog United's seniority list; I was placed on the very bottom of the seniority list on the day that my class started, as did everyone else who was in class with me. United is my second ALPA carrier; I wasn't given any credit for my military or previous 121 time. Nor was anyone else.
More than 20 years of aviation experience, yet I'm a new guy. OK.
Pal, you need to spend a bit of time looking in the mirror. You are blaming everyone else for your failed retirement planning and now you want more time to make it up. Sorry, your time is almost up. If you're counting on the rules to change before you turn 60, you're betting against the odds.
Judging from the raw greed of others in your shoes, the FAA won't make the change without legislative cover. Too many of you want to sue to get reinstated. And if you think that politicians have any sympathy for pilots, you're more delusional than your posts have displayed. There are much more pressing issues in government than your little problem.
Mmmph. So ALPA's new stance will be to work WITH the system to make changes that we oppose? What's next? ALPA working to allow cabotage and increased foreign ownership of US airlines? GREAT strategy.
IF ALPA can't diplomatically express to politicians our disagreement with legislation that the majority of the membership opposes, then why do we have ALPA?
Sounds like JP should've never run for ALPA President if he can't explain the opposition of ALPA to a change to age 60. Of course, you and I know that his REAL motivation is that he favors the change and will work toward making the change a reality, in spite of how the majority feels.
The 'pragmatism' displayed by JP is the reason that is given to facilitate a change that he favors, in SPITE of how the majority of the membership feels.
I'm voicing my opinion. MANY share my opinion. Like, uh, the MAJORITY of ALPA! Got a problem with me expressing my opinion and disdain for current ALPA management?
I'm perfectly calm. My writing may indicate otherwise, but I express my views passionately with the quill. If it bothers you, don't bother reading my posts.
Change the way I want it? I DON'T WANT CHANGE WITH RESPECT TO AGE 60!
As far as getting involved, I have. I've organized several e-mail/fax/letter writing campaigns aimed squarely at our elected officials to keep the status quo.
As far as getting involved with ALPA, why? The top manager of ALPA is going to push his own personal agenda, no matter what the majority says. Disgusting. IF I get involved with ALPA matters, it will be to initiate a recall of JP due to this issue. Are you REALLY SURE that you want me to get involved?
Random phone poll only? No national vote? What is the time period and when will the questions and results be announced?
More importantly, will JP follow the direction of the majority?????????????? He hasn't thus far, and this new poll is merely a justification to keep pushing for a change in spite of opposition of the majority.
Whaaaaa??? Are you telling me that with all this crying and knashing of teeth on FI, that there still hasn't been a recall motion passed on Prater YET ?!?!?!?!?
"Taking it Back"?....yeeeeah....
You know what? YES, I do want you to get involved!!! I'd rather see you at your next Local Council meeting with a resolution calling for Captain Prater's recall than sitting on a damn message board and complaining. If you're so sure that the majority would rather recall the Association President than trust his leadership on this issue, then get off your butt and do something about it!
Rez: Let FAA and others figure out age 60 or 65. Anybody on our side of the equation who wants to effect the outcome is just trying to help themselves. We should tell them it's a safety issue and withold our assistance and input.
You've talked to JP, I've talked to JP...He's not a bad guy. But look at the facts: He's telling us he's representing us, and he's doing something else. Don't be the sort of member/worker who accepts being told that you're respected, in place of actually being treated with respect. (This has been going on at CAL for a longtime. CAL uses the mantra "dignity and respect" to describe our work relations. It's very easy for them because they don't know what those words mean?!) ALPA seems confused about what representing us means. I've been in other unions and trust me, there is better representation out there in this regard.
Here is what WE need to be doing: This is all political, so we need to get political. We need a comprehensive retirement plan for all airline pilots/workers just like the railroaders have. WWW.RRB.GOV You want to fix the age 60 debate? Give everybody a retirement they can count on! If you've flown 30 years of FAR 121 you deserve a retirement program. We need to think outside the box and ALPA WILL NOT do it! They are totally backward in that regard. Call or mention this to ALPA and you will get the same response: "Well, that's not exactly what we're trying to do", or "that's not quite my job". ALPA vehemently resists looking outside the box; They are not going to outsmart anybody.
You've talked to JP, I've talked to JP...He's not a bad guy. But look at the facts: He's telling us he's representing us, and he's doing something else. Don't be the sort of member/worker who accepts being told that you're respected, in place of actually being treated with respect. (This has been going on at CAL for a longtime. CAL uses the mantra "dignity and respect" to describe our work relations. It's very easy for them because they don't know what those words mean?!) ALPA seems confused about what representing us means. I've been in other unions and trust me, there is better representation out there in this regard.
Here is what WE need to be doing: This is all political, so we need to get political. We need a comprehensive retirement plan for all airline pilots/workers just like the railroaders have. WWW.RRB.GOV You want to fix the age 60 debate? Give everybody a retirement they can count on! If you've flown 30 years of FAR 121 you deserve a retirement program. We need to think outside the box and ALPA WILL NOT do it! They are totally backward in that regard. Call or mention this to ALPA and you will get the same response: "Well, that's not exactly what we're trying to do", or "that's not quite my job". ALPA vehemently resists looking outside the box; They are not going to outsmart anybody.
Until ALPA does an honest to goodness no bs poll, there will never be any way to truly tell whos "interest" is not being represented.
So far both sides interpret as they see fit, then run around yelling about alpa not representing their interests.
Prater has said that official policy is for keeping the rule as is, but the way he whispers it and puts it in microscopic print and then goes and puts the pragmatism bit in bold and yells it with a bullhorn makes it a little hard to tell sometimes.
Whatever, its clear the FAA doesn't care anyway, its mind is made up.
Getting waivers may or may not happen. These apaad guys are pretty savvy, and Marion's sentiment is with them.
Props to the APA. At least they figured out where they stood, and straight up said so. Even if they are whizzing into the wind, at least the world knows where they stand.
So far both sides interpret as they see fit, then run around yelling about alpa not representing their interests.
Prater has said that official policy is for keeping the rule as is, but the way he whispers it and puts it in microscopic print and then goes and puts the pragmatism bit in bold and yells it with a bullhorn makes it a little hard to tell sometimes.
Whatever, its clear the FAA doesn't care anyway, its mind is made up.
Getting waivers may or may not happen. These apaad guys are pretty savvy, and Marion's sentiment is with them.
Props to the APA. At least they figured out where they stood, and straight up said so. Even if they are whizzing into the wind, at least the world knows where they stand.
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Why Have another poll? We know what it will say.
Let's get a comprehensive retirement like rail has! Let's get opted out of SS and have a durable benefit that helps us retire appropriately! Then we could make the age 100!
It's either one way or the other boys and girls! Give us a rail like retirement or drop the RLA from our working reality. Think about what we could do with no RLA? They dream up something like open skies, foriegn ownership, age 70, or any other thing we don't like? We'll all take 3 days off! I mean, they want to be like ICAO, right?
(Personally, I'd rather have the retirement plan)
Let's get a comprehensive retirement like rail has! Let's get opted out of SS and have a durable benefit that helps us retire appropriately! Then we could make the age 100!
It's either one way or the other boys and girls! Give us a rail like retirement or drop the RLA from our working reality. Think about what we could do with no RLA? They dream up something like open skies, foriegn ownership, age 70, or any other thing we don't like? We'll all take 3 days off! I mean, they want to be like ICAO, right?
(Personally, I'd rather have the retirement plan)
pipe
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It's not just the way you see it, it's a fact. If you are in good standing when furloughed, you are a member in good standing during your furlough. That's it. How ALPA has gotten away with ignoring the furloughees opinion is beyond me.
PIPE
luckytohaveajob
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give me a lesson on recall
Rez,
Tell me step by step how a member in good standing would get a resolution put on the record at the local lec level that would effect the local mec and the national mec.
First resolution- force alpa to support age 60 with all its resources defending against age 65.
second resolution- recall prater
step 1, step 2, step 3, etc.
Rez,
Tell me step by step how a member in good standing would get a resolution put on the record at the local lec level that would effect the local mec and the national mec.
First resolution- force alpa to support age 60 with all its resources defending against age 65.
second resolution- recall prater
step 1, step 2, step 3, etc.
ALPA could start by slashing some of those salaries in Herndon, especially those of the secretaries that make more than ALPA negotiated captain salaries, and put those into the PAC, that would be a start. Or maybe Prater could take a cut too, as have most ALPA members over these last couple of years.
Lead by example and all...
Lead by example and all...
Occam's Razor
Risible...ALWAYS risible
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I love it!
Oh wait....you were serious!
Ulp!
I thought you were using sarcasm to make a point, but instead it appears you seriously think that slashing the pay of your employees is "leading by example".
We demand better pay and benefits...and more respect from our employers...but when it comes to the people who work for us, we should hammer 'em?
Do you see the problem with that?
Don't be fooled by the bogus numbers you've seen posted on anti-union websites by the shills of the CEO's who need more lucre to satisfy their amoral greed. If an ALPA secretary makes more than you it might be because he/she works for an organization that treats their employees fairly.
Falconjet
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Freight Dog
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Rez... with you being so full of solutions, why don't you suggest one? I've told you several times what my solutions were.
Are you saying the BRP is the way to go? Do you think it sends the correct message to airline managements and other government bodies who want to see cabotage, open skies, etc.?
Also, while you're at it, please tell me when and how being pragmatic ever benefited this profession?
Are you saying the BRP is the way to go? Do you think it sends the correct message to airline managements and other government bodies who want to see cabotage, open skies, etc.?
Also, while you're at it, please tell me when and how being pragmatic ever benefited this profession?
Freight Dog
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We have a genius in charge of the FAA. ALPA simply cannot compete with her...
http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=f849643b-c050-4aea-b695-a60b2ba61db9&
Blakey flunked the Private Pilot Written..... FOUR TIMES!!
http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=f849643b-c050-4aea-b695-a60b2ba61db9&
Blakey flunked the Private Pilot Written..... FOUR TIMES!!
Um, note the date of the article. I find it a bit hard to believe.
Freight Dog
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Rez O. Lewshun
Save the Profession
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My solutions are to increase PAC particaption, increase LEC voter particaption, increase LEC meeting attendance. My solutions are to build larger and more effective LEC and MEC legislative affairs committee's. Thus the coordinated actions of more pilots can be used to effect postive change on CapHill.
There is a demonstration on May 17th in DC. The pilot turn out, I fear, will be pretty weak.
Sorry there isn't instant gratification, one shot one kill, barvado and sensationalism listed above, like an SOS... but that isn't the way it is done... Politcs is a slow grey beast. We can't be content for years (age 60) and do nothing to prepare for change.
The problem is in Jan. the FAA said age 60 will change. One of many reasons why is because they knew ALPA was only so effective. What if they knew ALPA was such a signifiacant force that the FAA had to be very careful? It certainly is possbile if we ALPA pilots were policitically saavy and strong.
One the big problems ALPA has had on CapHill is mixed messages. At certain times CapHill just shut out the pilots becuase there where too many viewpoints from too many different groups....
What is difficult for us is to hash out our differences before we go to the Hill with a unifed single message. Any other way is self defeating. As you can see from this message board topic we don't agree, so how can we go to the Hill?
My two responses above apply here...
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</B>
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Whoa! That's a good point. Is Prater going to have another BRP when they decide cabotage is a great idea?
Rez! I can't entirely disagree with the way you're thinking, but it's getting too late in the game. Sure, pragmatisim suits a game of inches. But this is big league time, we're supposed to be pros. We have a lot of franchise players who make a lot of money...Somebody: MAKE A PLAY! A big play. Change the momentum of this game!
I think your solutions are too little too late Rez. Maybe if we could get everybody interested in something like the railroad retirements your reserved approach would work? (I'll pledge 10 grand right now if ALPA would go after something like that instead of age 65) In the absence of that, I think we would all be better off seeking a new union.
I think your solutions are too little too late Rez. Maybe if we could get everybody interested in something like the railroad retirements your reserved approach would work? (I'll pledge 10 grand right now if ALPA would go after something like that instead of age 65) In the absence of that, I think we would all be better off seeking a new union.
Rez O. Lewshun
Save the Profession
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Repsectfully, waiting till the last night to study and prepare for finals isn't the way to go. I've tried it and it doesn't work. Wanna see my GPA?
We've got to prepare way in advance...Trying to lose 30lbs the night before your wedding so you can fight into that white dress doesn't work.
They way we win games is inch by inch... counting on hail mary TD passes and Grand Slam home runs sure sells tickets and is pure sensastionalism... On CapHill there are no fancy plays, dramatic actions or innovative cutting edge political moves that no one has heard of.....
ALPA can't approach a congressmen at the 11th hour and convince him/her to vote our way. Relationships, trust and alliances take along time... If I just met you and asked to borrow $100 you'd probably say no. But if we were friends for years you wouldn't even ask why...
Nothing wrong with ALPA. ALPA is well respected on CapHill by Congressmen, FAA, NTSB, and others... ALPA just needs more ammo and resources. When the ALPA lobbyist go to CapHill and say we have 100% of our membership supporting your office congressman, will you support us... in reality ALPA says we got 14%. Only 14% of ALPA pilots help our lobbyist help us...
My solutions are not too late. It is the way to get things done. There is plenty of time to get prepared for foreign control, age 60, cabatoge and the next group of issues.
If we step up our education and particaption....in other words our activism then we can succeed. What do we have to lose? Only the status quo.
Your thoughts?
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Rez: You'd be great 15-25 years ago; right on the money. However, we can't keep on with the old, failed coping mechanisms ALPA has/is relying on. Something has to be outside the box for it to work real changes in our situation.
I like the railroad pension idea (obviously) and I think it's the sort of thing we should push in the highly political game we find ourselves in. It's the sort of thing we should be countering with rather than age 65. OR, more importantly, maybe use it as a companion issue to the retirement age debate! Do they really want to just be like ICAO, or would they rather give us a quasi answer that pulls us apart? We have been held to the terms of the RLA forever, It's time we push for the rest of the equation! Give us the same retirement program or drop the RLA and let us really be like ICAO!
Seriously, can I get some feedback on this? If this were the sort of issue ALPA was working on, ALPA PAC would have 50 million, just for this issue, in 6 months.
I like the railroad pension idea (obviously) and I think it's the sort of thing we should push in the highly political game we find ourselves in. It's the sort of thing we should be countering with rather than age 65. OR, more importantly, maybe use it as a companion issue to the retirement age debate! Do they really want to just be like ICAO, or would they rather give us a quasi answer that pulls us apart? We have been held to the terms of the RLA forever, It's time we push for the rest of the equation! Give us the same retirement program or drop the RLA and let us really be like ICAO!
Seriously, can I get some feedback on this? If this were the sort of issue ALPA was working on, ALPA PAC would have 50 million, just for this issue, in 6 months.
Rez O. Lewshun
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Well... 15-20 years ago the congressional fund raising was a defined season. Now it is simply full time. Campaigns cost money....
There will always be a crisis issue ready to redefine a pilots expectation. Just like age 60.
ALPA Pilot member activisim has always been low. Why not try it? When the DAL pilots objected to the USAIR take over DAL pilots lined the congressional hearing chanber in full uniform. It worked! Are ALPA pilots ready to move?
You say something ? Like what? tell me..
I agree. Management loves the RLA..combined with a pro management NMB... the RLA sucks... We need more congressmen who support us... sorry but its back to the PAC for solutions.. we've got to get our PAC % up. Right now its at 14%. That is quite the minority...
You'd think the PAC would have that much money.... I wish it did...
With more activism you could influence the PAC steering committee and EC/EB to go full HARD CORE on age 60. You'd be a political power house...
Your idea has merit, but discussing it on flightinfo will not bring about any progress. Draft a resolution directing ALPA to research your idea, pass it at your next Local Council meeting, and then move it up the ladder to the MEC and EC. That's how progress is made.
PCL: Thanks for the input. If ALPA weren't non-functional, that might work. Frankly, why have they not thought up something like this themselves already? It's because they are more of an "activist" type organization and less a union. They are more interested in "taking it back" just so they can give it up again. I want to hear and support thinking that equates to: never again!
Sounds like a cop-out to me. Andy keeps calling for Captain Prater's recall, yet he does nothing to bring it about. You keep talking about your RR-style pension, yet you won't bring a resolution to start working on the idea. I see nothing on this board but a bunch of complainers. No one wants to actually get to work on changing things. They'd rather sit back and attack the people that actually are doing something.
Look PCL, I know Prater. Not super well, but I've been hoping he would lead the union, or manage our expectations in some way that we can feel comfortable. That hope is evaporating quickly, however.
Frieght Dog has a heck of a good point. Can we expect that other union issues opposed by the membership majority will be handled in this way? A BRP and an active lack of representation on the issue? As long as the issue has a similiar "silver lining" for the soon to be retired [senior]? Really starting to stink around here.
Frieght Dog has a heck of a good point. Can we expect that other union issues opposed by the membership majority will be handled in this way? A BRP and an active lack of representation on the issue? As long as the issue has a similiar "silver lining" for the soon to be retired [senior]? Really starting to stink around here.
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