From the ALPA Age 60 Website...

[Falconjet]

My thoughts haven't changed. If I want to donate money to lawmakers in an effort to support my views, I will have to do that on my own. Giving money to ALPA PAC so they can lobby for things I don't agree with would be kind of self defeating.

FJ

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

My thoughts haven't changed. If I want to donate money to lawmakers in an effort to support my views, I will have to do that on my own. Giving money to ALPA PAC so they can lobby for things I don't agree with would be kind of self defeating.

FJ

incomplete repsonse...what about the other issues that where brought up.

In addition, if we don't have a voice on open skies/foreign control it won't matter if we win age 60. You and most of us be invited not to be airline pilots before we reach age60. Juan and Xiang will fly our jets for us...

Also it was brought up on how ALPA changed to its memberships wishes on FFDO.

It's like you've almost given up FJ. Why not continue to work the issue?

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Because I believe you are being myopic. Besides if you don't give to ALPA-PAC over one issue then where is the ammo for the rest of the issues: fatigue, contam runway safety, cargo safety/security, FFDO, foreign control, etc...?............

Because the other side that want Age65 is giving lots of cash.

Also, have you been drafting resolutions for your LEC meetings? There are lots of LEC and MEC's that are passing unanimous resolutions for ALPA to keep age 60.

Your thoughts?

your just confusing the issue. alpa is a democratic organization run for the members. it is not acting in that manner on the most important issue facing the union. age 60.

if alpa cannot protect its foundation which age 60 is a major part of it should crumble.

john prater wants age 65 to occur the same reason any other 55+ pilot wants it so he can extend his career. but extending those careers for the 55+ crowd does the exact opposite of what jp says he's fighting for by creating a surplus of qualified pilots, hurting the majority who are the current future alpa supporters, and creating a windfall for a small group who got us into the current position after two decades of mistakes.

alpa is the organization who should be giving lots of cash to fight any change to age 60 because it is in alignment with its democratic priorities and purpose for being. alpa should be using my dues to fund the status quo that benfits the majority of alpa members and just so you are not confused that means keeping age 60 as it currently is written.

if you want to appease the age 65 crowd make a change that effects the next generation of atp pilots. then the age discrimination claim would be satisfied and the world would being treating the future pilots as fairly as those of today.

 

[Freight Dog]

Rez... how do I know ALPA is going to fight fatigue, contaminated runways issue, safety, etc. when they folded with Age 60? Past performance speaks volumes. Look back the last 7 years and tell me what did ALPA accomplish?

Think of this as one's creditworthiness... are you going to extend credit to someone who doesn't pay their bills? If you have any brains, the answer is no.

Same goes with ALPA-PAC as far as I'm concerned. It's bad enough that 1.95% of our income goes to union dues. Ironically, ALPA has one of the most expensive union dues in the country.

When ALPA stops being a wet noodle, and gets some balls, I'll resume contributions to ALPA-PAC. Until then.... gotta save my money because they're selling me and the majority down the river.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

your just confusing the issue. alpa is a democratic organization run for the members. it is not acting in that manner on the most important issue facing the union. age 60.

You guys need to get off the "members have spoken you WILL act" mantra. I agree democracy rules, but it is not black and white..meaning if the guys that are minding the store have something to say...why not listen.

You guys aren't listening... all you are doing is being mad cause your will isn't being address directly and without discuss. It doesn't work this way.....as much as you'd like.

You are like a client demanding his lawyer do something without listening to counsel.

if alpa cannot protect its foundation which age 60 is a major part of it should crumble.

this statement is incredibly superfical. The foundation?

john prater wants age 65 to occur the same reason any other 55+ pilot wants it so he can extend his career. but extending those careers for the 55+ crowd does the exact opposite of what jp says he's fighting for by creating a surplus of qualified pilots, hurting the majority who are the current future alpa supporters, and creating a windfall for a small group who got us into the current position after two decades of mistakes.

I am not sure JP wants age65 to occur. I think he is pragmatically looking at the landscape....are you?

alpa is the organization who should be giving lots of cash to fight any change to age 60 because it is in alignment with its democratic priorities and purpose for being. alpa should be using my dues to fund the status quo that benfits the majority of alpa members and just so you are not confused that means keeping age 60 as it currently is written.

So if democracy says we should elimnate all taxes then we should? The masses don't have responsibility of the results...

Lots of cash? From where dues money? What about the guys that don't want age 60? what about their dues money? Should they get to take thier portion of the dues money and fight your portion of the dues money?

if you want to appease the age 65 crowd make a change that effects the next generation of atp pilots. then the age discrimination claim would be satisfied and the world would being treating the future pilots as fairly as those of today.

If age 60/65 was discrimination then wouldn't the lawsuit have been over a long time ago?


I am not against your position. All I am saying is you are going about it all wrong. To put blunt, many of you are comung across as pouting kids. Not getting your way..... Age 60 is a political issue. You've got to get in the trenches. A poll and dues money with the order to JP to charge isn't going to cut it. that is just the way it is...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

how do I know ALPA is going to fight fatigue, contaminated runways issue, safety, etc. when they folded with Age 60? Past performance speaks volumes. Look back the last 7 years and tell me what did ALPA accomplish?

Are you serious? This statement simply indicates that you are a submarine member... only surfaceing when something is important for you...

Think of this as one's creditworthiness... are you going to extend credit to someone who doesn't pay their bills? If you have any brains, the answer is no.

Get connected man...

Same goes with ALPA-PAC as far as I'm concerned. It's bad enough that 1.95% of our income goes to union dues. Ironically, ALPA has one of the most expensive union dues in the country.

Most expensive? How about value? Most unions don't have a safety department. One FAA admin stated that ALPA was the conscience of the airline industry. IOW, they are repsected on the Hill. What is that worth to you?

When ALPA stops being a wet noodle, and gets some balls, I'll resume contributions to ALPA-PAC. Until then.... gotta save my money because they're selling me and the majority down the river.

This is going to take years... do you have what it takes to stick with it. To become a player in Age60 or just a spectator. You've got to change your mentality if you want age 60 to remain. The fight is far from over, but if you are this mad then you aren't going to effect change...

 

[Falconjet]

Rez: believe it or not if the Age 60 thing goes down the way I think it will I might actually one of the beneficiaries, if I could use such a word in connection with the change.

I personally don't want to have to work to age 65 before I can retire and so I don't want to have my progression delayed so others can have a windfall. More than that I think that a change would be grossly unfair to those who are furloughed, and I happen to agree that there is a safety issue involved as well. Obviously many agree and disagree with me on all of those issues.

If the change is implemented with a built in delay it might actually allow me to progress normally AND be able to work to 65 should I want to. That could happen. I am still against a change for the reasons above.

My concern is not just over this issue and/or how it might effect ME.

My issue is why isn't MY union leadership doing everything it can to carry out the will of the majority of its members? If you want to accuse me of being a single issue constituent, at least get the single issue right.

I want representation, not my way. Until Capt Prater has convinced me that he is looking out for the interests of the majority I will not even consider paying more than my dues to the organization. We may lose the battle over age 60, but I want to at least see a fair fight, not complete surrender at the first sign of hostilities.

FJ

 

[Freight Dog]

Get connected man...

Most expensive? How about value? Most unions don't have a safety department. One FAA admin stated that ALPA was the conscience of the airline industry. IOW, they are repsected on the Hill. What is that worth to you?

I'm not talking about ALPA's evolution from way back when. I'm talking last 7 years. That's almost a decade. What has ALPA done with regards to:

1) Cargo Cabotage (Allowed it to happen)
2) A-plans (Allowed the Wall Street to walk away with them)
3) Concessionary bargaining/management accountability (Blindly agreeing to unnecessary contracts)
4) Division amongst our ranks between Regional/Mainline pilots (RJDC bullsh*t)
5) Age 60 (About to change because "the conscience of the airline industry" is once again about to fold)
6) Open skies with EU (ALPA is "concerned." Start the Pink Ribbon Panel already!!!)
7) TSA abuse of crewmembers (Been going on since after 9/11 with lip service from ALPA).

Need I go on?

This is going to take years... do you have what it takes to stick with it. To become a player in Age60 or just a spectator. You've got to change your mentality if you want age 60 to remain. The fight is far from over, but if you are this mad then you aren't going to effect change...

Look Rez... ALPA is an outdated organization. You can't compare the accomplishments of ALPA's founders to the current events. Apples and Potatoes (not even close enough to be apples and oranges).

ALPA founders used OUTSIDE-OF-THE-BOX thinking to get things changed. Today's ALPA can't think outside of the box if the outside of the box bitchslapped them twice and kicked them in the ass. It is no longer a union. No more teeth in ALPA. Because of that, the management and the government both lost their respect for us. That is why you see this endless pattern of bullsh*t.

Would you do a Pinnacle Summer of Love to finally get a decent contract kinda like UAL pilots did back in 2000? Oh heavens no! You wouldn't want to do that. It's all about being pragmatic, right? UAL pilots proved in 2000 that the management only understands being kicked in the balls because being pragmatic does not work. Now it's government's turn to learn if ALPA has any fight left in it. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear so.

Brother... I think it's you that needs to get connected. ALPA is SERIOUSLY f**ked up, and when it gets off its ass and gets beyond the flashy worded circle-jerk, you better believe I'll be there.

Until then.... SAVE YOUR MONEY!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

My issue is why isn't MY union leadership doing everything it can to carry out the will of the majority of its members? If you want to accuse me of being a single issue constituent, at least get the single issue right.

Nothing has happened yet! Except the outgoing FAA Admin has said NPRM. Are you concerned because ALPA hasn't screamed HELL NO from Mass Ave over K street so everyone on the Hill can hear?

I don't get it?

I want representation, not my way. Until Capt Prater has convinced me that he is looking out for the interests of the majority I will not even consider paying more than my dues to the organization. We may lose the battle over age 60, but I want to at least see a fair fight, not complete surrender at the first sign of hostilities.

What leads you to believe there has been a surrender? Can Prater have a pragmatic, methodical, patient plan? Or does he need to be screaming just to satisfy the needs of the membership...

IOW... wait and see how this plays out before you start withholding support and resources....


Fair?

 

[kwick]

The only reason this is even an issue is because regional airline pilots are included in the survey. I was a commuter airline pilot and I wanted more than anything to get on with an airline flying big jets. I always wanted to learn from the more experienced pilots. I respected seniority. If we could all increase our flying by five years, I was all for it. I would not be a guy that relished an upgrade at the expense of the guys that taught me. I paid my dues, now pay yours, and stop whining.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'm not talking about ALPA's evolution from way back when. I'm talking last 7 years. That's almost a decade. What has ALPA done with regards to:

1) Cargo Cabotage (Allowed it to happen)

No, YOU allowed it to happen with our weak 14% contribution to ALPA-PAC. You wanted to stop Ted Stevens...??? it started along time before he introduced the Bill...

2) A-plans (Allowed the Wall Street to walk away with them)

The APA started that.... can you elobrate? How did they allow? B/c they didn't go ball kicking on wall street. You want thug union mentality go get the teamsters...

3) Concessionary bargaining/management accountability (Blindly agreeing to unnecessary contracts)

The rank and file voted in those concessionary contracts. Your fellow pilots with clear vision voted. Look around the crewroom...

4) Division amongst our ranks between Regional/Mainline pilots (RJDC bullsh*t)

Again look around the crewroom. Not sure where ALPA Nat'l created divisiveness on this... The RJDC is not ALPA.

5) Age 60 (About to change because "the conscience of the airline industry" is once again about to fold)

Please provide details not rhetoric

6) Open skies with EU (ALPA is "concerned." Start the Pink Ribbon Panel already!!!)

More PAC money needed... but too many pilots taking one issue stands. Are you going to DC on May 17th?

The time to get effective on open skies is now, not after the law is passed. Which is usually when guys like you get involved. AFTER the fact, then you cry in your wheaties that ALPA is outdated and can't think out side the box.

7) TSA abuse of crewmembers (Been going on since after 9/11 with lip service from ALPA).

Did you voted for Bush. 2x The public outcry for airport security after 9/11 was loud. If ALPA opposed that they would be called terrorist sympathizers... You seem to want it both ways....

ALPA and the AFL-CIO did oppose Bush's insistance on the fact that the TSA could not unionize. Now the TSA has a staffing and rention problem... more ALPA's fault?

Need I go on?

Can you without emotion and rhetoric?



Look Rez... ALPA is an outdated organization. You can't compare the accomplishments of ALPA's founders to the current events. Apples and Potatoes (not even close enough to be apples and oranges).

can you compare? if ALPA is so outdated then let's update. Do you want to update by keeping an old dated policy in place when the rest of the world is forward thinking?

ALPA founders used OUTSIDE-OF-THE-BOX thinking to get things changed. Today's ALPA can't think outside of the box if the outside of the box bitchslapped them twice and kicked them in the ass. It is no longer a union. No more teeth in ALPA. Because of that, the management and the government both lost their respect for us. That is why you see this endless pattern of bullsh*t.

You seem to have a romantic notion of the good ol days... Tell me the effective teeth that ALPA had? Like what? Exaclty what did ALPA do in the past that was so great that you long for?

Would you do a Pinnacle Summer of Love to finally get a decent contract kinda like UAL pilots did back in 2000? Oh heavens no! You wouldn't want to do that. It's all about being pragmatic, right? UAL pilots proved in 2000 that the management only understands being kicked in the balls because being pragmatic does not work. Now it's government's turn to learn if ALPA has any fight left in it. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear so.

Wow..now you are speaking for me? Don't presume to... I've look management in the face at my previous employers and told to em to stick it... and the one before that. Unions are the only way you can literally tell the CEO to phcuk off. Been there done that...

Oh you wanna show gov't. Back to the PAC. Money is the only way to be heard in DC. Next...

Brother... I think it's you that needs to get connected. ALPA is SERIOUSLY f**ked up, and when it gets off its ass and gets beyond the flashy worded circle-jerk, you better believe I'll be there.

Until then.... SAVE YOUR MONEY!

But you have no solutions.. just rhetoric and emotional tirade..... You seem to lack the understanding of how things really work and thus you have no solutions excpet ball kicking.... I can tell you it doesn't work.....been there done that...

But I'll ask again... What do you expect ALPA to do on Age 60 that it isn't and tell us how.

For example- don't say Prater should call Blakely and say "My pilots demand that you will not change age 60" And then call the problem solved.

Lets hear realistic workable solutions and the methodologies to implement them, not excuses such as "I pay my dues THEY should just do what I want"

The point... Guys like you that don't support the guys who are trying to get it done are divisive. Your anger and angst are counterproductive. Sure we can disagree but at the end of the day we need to pull on the same rope. (kinda like CRM).

One reason ALPA has failed is because when they go to the Hill there are plenty of pilots there...all singing different tunes. Guess what the Congressmen do? SHUT THEM OUT. All of them.. and they write us off as indecisive and unorganized.

You can get Age 60, but you've got to do more than just pay your dues and pout. Sorry man, but that is just the way it is... its not my fault, ALPA's fault, your fault or thier fault... it is just the way it is....

 

[Flopgut]

Rez: You ever been in another union?

I've been in three pilot unions.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Frog soup

ALPA is just playing the membership like making frog soup.

You know how frogs are cooked. You put the little guy in the pot of cool water. You start the fire under the pot and slowly bring it to a boil till the little guy is cooked well done.

ALPA is doing the same thing to its membership. It has us in the pot and it is boiling us down as it heats up the water on each issue.

Age 65 added a blow torch to the pot. All the while ALPA sits there and tells us they are working for the membership as ALPA cooks us by increasing the water temp. ever so slowly.

ALPA does not look out for the interest of its general membership, so how do you figure the general membership is going to support ALPA in the long run?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Anyone? Can anyone talk about the right way to go about keeping age60? I'm not talking about frog analogies...

I am talking about the effective way to deal with the FAA, DOT, WH, House of Reps, Senate, ICAO and other unions on this issue....

How do we deal with these organizations without pissing all or some of them off and getting ourselves removed from the process all while convincing them that while Age 60 is not in thier best interests they should keep it....


I agree with you in that we should kep age 60.... its the how...

 

[kwick]

If you spent as much time trying to be a better pilot than trying to get a short-cut, the American flying public would be a lot better off.

 

[Andy]

If you spent as much time trying to be a better pilot than trying to get a short-cut, the American flying public would be a lot better off.

What are you talking about?
This rule has been in effect since before you got your first flying lesson. Having it remain the same is NOT a short cut.

I'm guessing that you're in your early to mid 50s and figure you'll get another 5 years in the left seat. At the expense of those at the regionals whom you've just insulted with your last two posts.
I'm 46 years old, hold a 767FO bid at UAL, and with the current progress of the NPRM, the EARLIEST I see this enacted is Jan 2010 (more likely bogged down much longer than that). I'll be 49 in Jan 2010; someone who should be pushing for the change. But I'm not because this instant seniority grab is stealing from those that you're so busy insulting. Acts such as that have turned this from a profession into a job.
Propose a 20 year phase-in where the age increases by 3 mos/yr and maybe you can get some support behind it. But that doesn't fit your desires because you'd probably only be able to remain until 61.

In closing, PLEASE tell us how YOU paid your dues. We'll match it up to those guys who have been at regionals for the last 7 years and still waiting for a job at a major. I'm sure that my 4yrs 10mos on furlough from UAL isn't very much dues paying.

 

[Andy]

Anyone? Can anyone talk about the right way to go about keeping age60?

Yeah, have an ALPA President who both publicly AND privately voices support for age 60. I don't think that JP is doing that in private; he sure as he!! isn't doing it in public.

Don't forget that the ALPA President is THE face and voice of ALPA. The pragmatic crap only goes so far with me.

Now, when's the ALPA poll going to start so that I can tell JP where to stick his pragmatism?

Rez, you're telling us to get behind an organization whose face and voice is not representing us, the majority.

 

[kwick]

I,ve got over 25 years as an ALPA member, as opposed to your approximately 5. Some of us have not had the benefit of having worked for a major airline and thus are not really in a position to retire. I think the regional airline pilots should be given date of hire at the airlines that own them, or code-share with them. Most of those pilots have a lot more invested in their airlines and careers than you do. And a lot more airline experience. They have paid their dues. Jet Blue got one thing right, that is that any pilot flying a jet aircraft should have their seniority protected from guys that leap-frog the seniority list like you have, and then complain about it. New guys should spend more time learning than preaching.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Yeah, have an ALPA President who both publicly AND privately voices support for age 60. I don't think that JP is doing that in private; he sure as he!! isn't doing it in public.

Perhaps he doesn't want to piss off the FAA, WH, and congress...the groups he has to wrk with on this issue. Nothing like pre loading your demise... after all it is... politics...

Don't forget that the ALPA President is THE face and voice of ALPA. The pragmatic crap only goes so far with me.

Yeah baby.. you and bravado can show pragmitism whos boss....

Now, when's the ALPA poll going to start so that I can tell JP where to stick his pragmatism?

You and FJ and FD sound like just the silver bullet Hollywood ending cowboys this association needs! Why didn't YOU run for ALPA President.

Rez, you're telling us to get behind an organization whose face and voice is not representing us, the majority.

No, I am telling you to cool your heels and chill. I am telling you to get more involved and envoke change the way you want it....

 

[PCL_128]

Now, when's the ALPA poll going to start so that I can tell JP where to stick his pragmatism?

Already in progress. Calls started a few days ago.