From the ALPA Age 60 Website...

[Falconjet]

Bullsh1t!

All of us give 1.95% to ALPA to represent us. Trying to hit me up for more so that we can buy political favor is a load of crap.

Try representing the will of the majority and fighting for our stance on the issue instead of caving in, then maybe solicit the membership for more support.

They (national) can kiss my azz if they think I'm going to put another penny into Herndon when they don't even represent the majority in the most divisive and important issue facing the union in the past 49 years. If I thought for a minute that Prater would spend the PAC money to effectively lobby against the change I'd then consider sending in more money. That isn't the tact he has taken and until then I will contribute only my dues.

Neal, again thanks for your efforts. I have and will continue to make my thoughts on Age 60 known to ALPA. I still think a blue ribbon panel to manage the change is a major cave in by ALPA national. Why not form a blue ribbon panel to fight and lobby against the change instead?

No real answer from Herndon on that one.

FJ

 

[Occam's Razor]

FJ,

I gotta agree with your overall theme. ALPA has an obligation to act in the way it's membership WANTS it to act. The primary obligation is to determine what we want...then go after it.

In 2002, Duane was personally opposed to a "no rules" armed pilot program. The membership gave him clear feedback that we wanted it. Duane very quietly enlisted the help on Capitol Hill of some influential folks that we might assume would oppose such a thing as the FFDO program: Paul Wellstone and Barbara Boxer.

Duane invited Wellstone to attend a Council 1 (NWA) meeting in MSP that June, and Wellstone was asked about arming pilots. I was there. Wellstone responded that "if we trust pilots with our lives, why can't we trust them with guns?" He drew a loud ovation. I saw staunch conservative buddies of mine wearing NRA buttons for the meeting, pumping his hand and thanking him for his support. Even now, Boxer is one of our go-to senators for enhancement to the FFDO program.

Duane responded to the outcry from the membership, went up to the Hill, and got it done. [Note: Other grass roots organizations helped a lot too!] The key point here is he responded to the will of the body.

I think we're looking for that from JP too.

 

[Andy]

The key point here is he responded to the will of the body.

I think we're looking for that from JP too.

The jury's still out on JP doing that.
I've heard it said from anti-60 that JP has helped their cause behind closed doors. I don't know whether or not it's true, but I'd prefer to see him take a stance closer to that of Hunter's at APA. I don't want someone who's going to assist in making the change; I want him to be a huge freaking roadblock. Period.

 

[Occam's Razor]

The jury's still out on JP doing that.
I've heard it said from anti-60 that JP has helped their cause behind closed doors. I don't know whether or not it's true, but I'd prefer to see him take a stance closer to that of Hunter's at APA. I don't want someone who's going to assist in making the change; I want him to be a huge freaking roadblock. Period.

Good point. I think it'd be a good idea for him to come out with a clear, unambiguous statement: ALPA opposes changing Age 60, and I will use all resources at my disposal as the President of ALPA to assist that opposition.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

All of us give 1.95% to ALPA to represent us. Trying to hit me up for more so that we can buy political favor is a load of crap.

So you bought a ticket to watch the game and you think the hotdogs and beer should be free. So instead of not enjoying your career, oops I mean the game you are going to sit there pissed off....

Sorry FJ.. but this is how it works. I am not sure why your expectation of political effectiveness is incorrect. Who is repsonsible for your perception? Meanwhile, managment came to the game knowing they had to pay extra for hot dogs and beer and they brought LOTS of cash. If you look down in the premium seats they are having a good time... spending the company's money that YOU helped generate on thier hotdogs and beer.

Did you know that FedEx Corp is number two on a list of PAC contributors for the 2006 election cycle. FedEx gave $1,522,354 dollars to congressional elections to get the legislation they want. YOU helped generate that revenue.

Try representing the will of the majority and fighting for our stance on the issue instead of caving in, then maybe solicit the membership for more support.

And they should...and you should keep at it. But if you don't pay to play then you are just a spectator watching this whole issue....

They (national) can kiss my azz if they think I'm going to put another penny into Herndon when they don't even represent the majority in the most divisive and important issue facing the union in the past 49 years. If I thought for a minute that Prater would spend the PAC money to effectively lobby against the change I'd then consider sending in more money. That isn't the tact he has taken and until then I will contribute only my dues.

It is your choice. Watch or play.

Neal, again thanks for your efforts. I have and will continue to make my thoughts on Age 60 known to ALPA. I still think a blue ribbon panel to manage the change is a major cave in by ALPA national. Why not form a blue ribbon panel to fight and lobby against the change instead?

No real answer from Herndon on that one.

FJ

Fair enough FJ...

Know this.... if Age60 is an IED then US/EU open skies is nuclear warhead. Age 60 isn't going to matter if we keep losing ground on open skies... So you can be myopic and refuse to play because of one issue, but there are a whole lot of other issues that will be our demise...

Age 60 is important but it is small potatoes...

 

[Flopgut]

Rez:

You can't show up at a cock fight with a duck. ALPA has become a duck; or maybe it's always been one, depending on how senior you are?!

You put a guy like Prater on the mound and you expect him to throw some great pitches, not bean his teammates with curveballs. The APA guy has it figured out.

I'm not sure that ALPA has EVER been particuliarly well run? I'm ready for the Teamsters. Recent history show an improving trend and includes industry leading cargo and charter/fractional contracts.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You can't show up at a cock fight with a duck. ALPA has become a duck; or maybe it's always been one, depending on how senior you are?!

If you like to cockflight...go for it. I'll quack....

You put a guy like Prater on the mound and you expect him to throw some great pitches, not bean his teammates with curveballs. The APA guy has it figured out.

Let's see how Age 60 plays out and who the real players are. The APA has put out a press release. What else have they done? (I don't know...school me...) I've looked around the APA website.. they've got allot of press releases but I don't see any teeth on the age60 issue.

I'm not sure that ALPA has EVER been particuliarly well run? I'm ready for the Teamsters. Recent history show an improving trend and includes industry leading cargo and charter/fractional contracts.

Hmm the netjet guys had to create thier own local cuase the IBT was so helpful... They then got a good TA. Nothing speaks for good leadership.

I'll let the ratification numbers on the IPA and FedEx TA's speak for themselves... Good leadership at FedEx too.....

No doubt ALPA has problems.... just like gov't and the church.... just like all of us. Are you perfect flopgut? I'm not... but let's stick to the issues and try to envoke positive change...

 

[Falconjet]

Rez: Whether the issue is large or small, the first thing the national leaders should do is carry out the will of the majority of the members. If they refuse to even do that I why would I send them even more money?

I believe in the union and I am not a single issue, fair weather friend. We need the union and I am proud to be a part of it.

But I'm not going to throw more money at an organization that has a "leader" who actively works against the will of the majority behind closed doors and seems willing to lay down in front of the bus because it benefits him.

To ask me to is absurd.

As I said before, if you are about to get raped you don't just lie back and "manage" the results. You fight back with every fiber in your being until its over and even then you never forgive. I don't see any fight in our leader and it really makes me sick.

How is he going to "take back the profession" after he lays down and completely disenfranchises the majority of his constituents? He'll be running up a lot of hills by himself.

FJ

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

FJ-

You maybe right...but lets wait and see.... what is the rush to define the situation as FUBAR?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez: Whether the issue is large or small, the first thing the national leaders should do is carry out the will of the majority of the members. If they refuse to even do that I why would I send them even more money?

Because I believe you are being myopic. Besides if you don't give to ALPA-PAC over one issue then where is the ammo for the rest of the issues: fatigue, contam runway safety, cargo safety/security, FFDO, foreign control, etc...?

If taxes where voluntary and I refused to give 100% of my taxes becuase I didn't like a certian gov't program then the police, fire and EMT services would also shut down.

Also, if you want Congressmen to vote on age60 in your favor then you've got to be able to have access to their congreesional offices. The only way to do that is PAC money.

Because the other side that want Age65 is giving lots of cash.

Also, have you been drafting resolutions for your LEC meetings? There are lots of LEC and MEC's that are passing unanimous resolutions for ALPA to keep age 60.

Your thoughts?

 

[Falconjet]

My thoughts haven't changed. If I want to donate money to lawmakers in an effort to support my views, I will have to do that on my own. Giving money to ALPA PAC so they can lobby for things I don't agree with would be kind of self defeating.

FJ

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

My thoughts haven't changed. If I want to donate money to lawmakers in an effort to support my views, I will have to do that on my own. Giving money to ALPA PAC so they can lobby for things I don't agree with would be kind of self defeating.

FJ

incomplete repsonse...what about the other issues that where brought up.

In addition, if we don't have a voice on open skies/foreign control it won't matter if we win age 60. You and most of us be invited not to be airline pilots before we reach age60. Juan and Xiang will fly our jets for us...

Also it was brought up on how ALPA changed to its memberships wishes on FFDO.

It's like you've almost given up FJ. Why not continue to work the issue?

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Because I believe you are being myopic. Besides if you don't give to ALPA-PAC over one issue then where is the ammo for the rest of the issues: fatigue, contam runway safety, cargo safety/security, FFDO, foreign control, etc...?............

Because the other side that want Age65 is giving lots of cash.

Also, have you been drafting resolutions for your LEC meetings? There are lots of LEC and MEC's that are passing unanimous resolutions for ALPA to keep age 60.

Your thoughts?

your just confusing the issue. alpa is a democratic organization run for the members. it is not acting in that manner on the most important issue facing the union. age 60.

if alpa cannot protect its foundation which age 60 is a major part of it should crumble.

john prater wants age 65 to occur the same reason any other 55+ pilot wants it so he can extend his career. but extending those careers for the 55+ crowd does the exact opposite of what jp says he's fighting for by creating a surplus of qualified pilots, hurting the majority who are the current future alpa supporters, and creating a windfall for a small group who got us into the current position after two decades of mistakes.

alpa is the organization who should be giving lots of cash to fight any change to age 60 because it is in alignment with its democratic priorities and purpose for being. alpa should be using my dues to fund the status quo that benfits the majority of alpa members and just so you are not confused that means keeping age 60 as it currently is written.

if you want to appease the age 65 crowd make a change that effects the next generation of atp pilots. then the age discrimination claim would be satisfied and the world would being treating the future pilots as fairly as those of today.

 

[Freight Dog]

Rez... how do I know ALPA is going to fight fatigue, contaminated runways issue, safety, etc. when they folded with Age 60? Past performance speaks volumes. Look back the last 7 years and tell me what did ALPA accomplish?

Think of this as one's creditworthiness... are you going to extend credit to someone who doesn't pay their bills? If you have any brains, the answer is no.

Same goes with ALPA-PAC as far as I'm concerned. It's bad enough that 1.95% of our income goes to union dues. Ironically, ALPA has one of the most expensive union dues in the country.

When ALPA stops being a wet noodle, and gets some balls, I'll resume contributions to ALPA-PAC. Until then.... gotta save my money because they're selling me and the majority down the river.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

your just confusing the issue. alpa is a democratic organization run for the members. it is not acting in that manner on the most important issue facing the union. age 60.

You guys need to get off the "members have spoken you WILL act" mantra. I agree democracy rules, but it is not black and white..meaning if the guys that are minding the store have something to say...why not listen.

You guys aren't listening... all you are doing is being mad cause your will isn't being address directly and without discuss. It doesn't work this way.....as much as you'd like.

You are like a client demanding his lawyer do something without listening to counsel.

if alpa cannot protect its foundation which age 60 is a major part of it should crumble.

this statement is incredibly superfical. The foundation?

john prater wants age 65 to occur the same reason any other 55+ pilot wants it so he can extend his career. but extending those careers for the 55+ crowd does the exact opposite of what jp says he's fighting for by creating a surplus of qualified pilots, hurting the majority who are the current future alpa supporters, and creating a windfall for a small group who got us into the current position after two decades of mistakes.

I am not sure JP wants age65 to occur. I think he is pragmatically looking at the landscape....are you?

alpa is the organization who should be giving lots of cash to fight any change to age 60 because it is in alignment with its democratic priorities and purpose for being. alpa should be using my dues to fund the status quo that benfits the majority of alpa members and just so you are not confused that means keeping age 60 as it currently is written.

So if democracy says we should elimnate all taxes then we should? The masses don't have responsibility of the results...

Lots of cash? From where dues money? What about the guys that don't want age 60? what about their dues money? Should they get to take thier portion of the dues money and fight your portion of the dues money?

if you want to appease the age 65 crowd make a change that effects the next generation of atp pilots. then the age discrimination claim would be satisfied and the world would being treating the future pilots as fairly as those of today.

If age 60/65 was discrimination then wouldn't the lawsuit have been over a long time ago?


I am not against your position. All I am saying is you are going about it all wrong. To put blunt, many of you are comung across as pouting kids. Not getting your way..... Age 60 is a political issue. You've got to get in the trenches. A poll and dues money with the order to JP to charge isn't going to cut it. that is just the way it is...