From the ALPA Age 60 Website...

[Flopgut]

Anyone? Can anyone talk about the right way to go about keeping age60? I'm not talking about frog analogies...

I am talking about the effective way to deal with the FAA, DOT, WH, House of Reps, Senate, ICAO and other unions on this issue....

How do we deal with these organizations without pissing all or some of them off and getting ourselves removed from the process all while convincing them that while Age 60 is not in thier best interests they should keep it....


I agree with you in that we should kep age 60.... its the how...

What if we did nothing Rez? What if we removed ourselves from the process and let them do what they are going to do? It's just a number someone pulled from their a$$ so no matter what they are going to do with it, in the end it will still benefit/hurt the same number of pilots in aggregate. Prater refuses to do what his membership wants and instead chooses to cozy up to this because he likes it; he wants the benefit slanted to a certain group. This blatant lack of unity at our highest level is colosially bad. He should have done exactly what the APA guy did (stern letter to MB) and then excused us from the process.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What if we did nothing Rez? What if we removed ourselves from the process and let them do what they are going to do?

Who si they? Congress? FAA? Gov't

Prater refuses to do what his membership wants and instead chooses to cozy up to this because he likes it; he wants the benefit slanted to a certain group.

I spoke with Prater over two days... I didn't get this impression. I am not saying your belief is not realistic... though. I just have a different opinion...

Have you communicated with the BRP (even I think it is a weak name..)? I fear that assumptions are being made and cooler heads are cooling down... I am not saying your concerns are not valid...

This blatant lack of unity at our highest level is colosially bad. He should have done exactly what the APA guy did (stern letter to MB) and then excused us from the process.

Sounds defeatist. The unity issue is a major problem. I'd like to think that we could still work other issues such as open skies. We need to keep it issue orientated.

Can you explain how "excused us from the process" would be benificial?

 

[Andy]

I,ve got over 25 years as an ALPA member, as opposed to your approximately 5.

I've been an ALPA member in good standing since joining in 1999. My prior employer, for whom I flew for from 1986 to 1999, did not have ALPA on property.
However, it looks like I was shack on as to your age; I notice how you dodged that portion of my post.

Some of us have not had the benefit of having worked for a major airline and thus are not really in a position to retire.

You've been an ALPA member for more than 25 years. That means that you've seen at LEAST four downturns in the airline industry. Did you not learn to save for the future and for a rainy day in ALL THAT TIME? Did you think that somehow your retirement would not be an issue?
I love people like you, who FINALLY have the clue bird dump some feces on your shoulder so late in the game, and then run out and try to change the rules to fix their screwup. It's like blaming your copilot when you pound in a landing.

I think the regional airline pilots should be given date of hire at the airlines that own them, or code-share with them. Most of those pilots have a lot more invested in their airlines and careers than you do.

Again, giving regional pilots a date of hire at the airlines that own them fits your special needs.
I flew another 121 operation prior to being hired by United. It was VERY clear to me why some pilots were never able to be hired by majors. Not in all cases; some just had bad luck, but I'd bet that you fall in the former category.

And a lot more airline experience.

Some people catch on to this here airline stuff faster than others. It's not rocket surgery. :laugh:

They have paid their dues.

Paid their dues? So have I. 1.95%. :laugh:
Or are you referring to how you've suffered through the airline system while others (ie ex-mil) have taken the easy route to a major? We all have a choice as to which path we want our career to take. The career path of an airline pilot has always been very clearcut. We ALL paid our dues. Leave the arrogance at the door; you have no reason to be arrogant.

Jet Blue got one thing right, that is that any pilot flying a jet aircraft should have their seniority protected from guys that leap-frog the seniority list like you have, and then complain about it..

Leapfrog the seniority list? I didn't leapfrog United's seniority list; I was placed on the very bottom of the seniority list on the day that my class started, as did everyone else who was in class with me. United is my second ALPA carrier; I wasn't given any credit for my military or previous 121 time. Nor was anyone else.

New guys should spend more time learning than preaching.

More than 20 years of aviation experience, yet I'm a new guy. OK.


Pal, you need to spend a bit of time looking in the mirror. You are blaming everyone else for your failed retirement planning and now you want more time to make it up. Sorry, your time is almost up. If you're counting on the rules to change before you turn 60, you're betting against the odds.
Judging from the raw greed of others in your shoes, the FAA won't make the change without legislative cover. Too many of you want to sue to get reinstated. And if you think that politicians have any sympathy for pilots, you're more delusional than your posts have displayed. There are much more pressing issues in government than your little problem.

 

[Andy]

Perhaps he doesn't want to piss off the FAA, WH, and congress...the groups he has to wrk with on this issue. Nothing like pre loading your demise... after all it is... politics...

Mmmph. So ALPA's new stance will be to work WITH the system to make changes that we oppose? What's next? ALPA working to allow cabotage and increased foreign ownership of US airlines? GREAT strategy.
IF ALPA can't diplomatically express to politicians our disagreement with legislation that the majority of the membership opposes, then why do we have ALPA?
Sounds like JP should've never run for ALPA President if he can't explain the opposition of ALPA to a change to age 60. Of course, you and I know that his REAL motivation is that he favors the change and will work toward making the change a reality, in spite of how the majority feels.

Yeah baby.. you and bravado can show pragmitism whos boss....

The 'pragmatism' displayed by JP is the reason that is given to facilitate a change that he favors, in SPITE of how the majority of the membership feels.

You and FJ and FD sound like just the silver bullet Hollywood ending cowboys this association needs! Why didn't YOU run for ALPA President.

I'm voicing my opinion. MANY share my opinion. Like, uh, the MAJORITY of ALPA! Got a problem with me expressing my opinion and disdain for current ALPA management?

No, I am telling you to cool your heels and chill. I am telling you to get more involved and envoke change the way you want it....

I'm perfectly calm. My writing may indicate otherwise, but I express my views passionately with the quill. If it bothers you, don't bother reading my posts.
Change the way I want it? I DON'T WANT CHANGE WITH RESPECT TO AGE 60!
As far as getting involved, I have. I've organized several e-mail/fax/letter writing campaigns aimed squarely at our elected officials to keep the status quo.
As far as getting involved with ALPA, why? The top manager of ALPA is going to push his own personal agenda, no matter what the majority says. Disgusting. IF I get involved with ALPA matters, it will be to initiate a recall of JP due to this issue. Are you REALLY SURE that you want me to get involved?

 

[Andy]

Already in progress. Calls started a few days ago.

Random phone poll only? No national vote? What is the time period and when will the questions and results be announced?
More importantly, will JP follow the direction of the majority?????????????? He hasn't thus far, and this new poll is merely a justification to keep pushing for a change in spite of opposition of the majority.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

IF I get involved with ALPA matters, it will be to initiate a recall of JP due to this issue. Are you REALLY SURE that you want me to get involved?

Whaaaaa??? Are you telling me that with all this crying and knashing of teeth on FI, that there still hasn't been a recall motion passed on Prater YET ?!?!?!?!?

"Taking it Back"?....yeeeeah....

 

[PCL_128]

IF I get involved with ALPA matters, it will be to initiate a recall of JP due to this issue. Are you REALLY SURE that you want me to get involved?

You know what? YES, I do want you to get involved!!! I'd rather see you at your next Local Council meeting with a resolution calling for Captain Prater's recall than sitting on a damn message board and complaining. If you're so sure that the majority would rather recall the Association President than trust his leadership on this issue, then get off your butt and do something about it!

 

[Flopgut]

Rez: Let FAA and others figure out age 60 or 65. Anybody on our side of the equation who wants to effect the outcome is just trying to help themselves. We should tell them it's a safety issue and withold our assistance and input.

You've talked to JP, I've talked to JP...He's not a bad guy. But look at the facts: He's telling us he's representing us, and he's doing something else. Don't be the sort of member/worker who accepts being told that you're respected, in place of actually being treated with respect. (This has been going on at CAL for a longtime. CAL uses the mantra "dignity and respect" to describe our work relations. It's very easy for them because they don't know what those words mean?!) ALPA seems confused about what representing us means. I've been in other unions and trust me, there is better representation out there in this regard.

Here is what WE need to be doing: This is all political, so we need to get political. We need a comprehensive retirement plan for all airline pilots/workers just like the railroaders have. WWW.RRB.GOV You want to fix the age 60 debate? Give everybody a retirement they can count on! If you've flown 30 years of FAR 121 you deserve a retirement program. We need to think outside the box and ALPA WILL NOT do it! They are totally backward in that regard. Call or mention this to ALPA and you will get the same response: "Well, that's not exactly what we're trying to do", or "that's not quite my job". ALPA vehemently resists looking outside the box; They are not going to outsmart anybody.

 

[vetrider]

Until ALPA does an honest to goodness no bs poll, there will never be any way to truly tell whos "interest" is not being represented.

So far both sides interpret as they see fit, then run around yelling about alpa not representing their interests.

Prater has said that official policy is for keeping the rule as is, but the way he whispers it and puts it in microscopic print and then goes and puts the pragmatism bit in bold and yells it with a bullhorn makes it a little hard to tell sometimes.

Whatever, its clear the FAA doesn't care anyway, its mind is made up.

Getting waivers may or may not happen. These apaad guys are pretty savvy, and Marion's sentiment is with them.

Props to the APA. At least they figured out where they stood, and straight up said so. Even if they are whizzing into the wind, at least the world knows where they stand.

 

[Flopgut]

Why Have another poll? We know what it will say.

Let's get a comprehensive retirement like rail has! Let's get opted out of SS and have a durable benefit that helps us retire appropriately! Then we could make the age 100!

It's either one way or the other boys and girls! Give us a rail like retirement or drop the RLA from our working reality. Think about what we could do with no RLA? They dream up something like open skies, foriegn ownership, age 70, or any other thing we don't like? We'll all take 3 days off! I mean, they want to be like ICAO, right?

(Personally, I'd rather have the retirement plan)

 

[vetrider]

My idea of a poll is as follows:

Do you favor changing the retirement age to 65? yes or no.

Thats it, no more theoretical, leading questions to muddy the waters. And furloughed guys get to participate. If they are eligible for recall, they are ALPA members the way I see it.

 

[pipe]

My idea of a poll is as follows:

Do you favor changing the retirement age to 65? yes or no.

Thats it, no more theoretical, leading questions to muddy the waters. And furloughed guys get to participate. If they are eligible for recall, they are ALPA members the way I see it.

It's not just the way you see it, it's a fact. If you are in good standing when furloughed, you are a member in good standing during your furlough. That's it. How ALPA has gotten away with ignoring the furloughees opinion is beyond me.

PIPE

 

[luckytohaveajob]

give me a lesson on recall

Rez,

Tell me step by step how a member in good standing would get a resolution put on the record at the local lec level that would effect the local mec and the national mec.

First resolution- force alpa to support age 60 with all its resources defending against age 65.

second resolution- recall prater

step 1, step 2, step 3, etc.

 

[Nado]

ALPA could start by slashing some of those salaries in Herndon, especially those of the secretaries that make more than ALPA negotiated captain salaries, and put those into the PAC, that would be a start. Or maybe Prater could take a cut too, as have most ALPA members over these last couple of years.

Lead by example and all...

 

[Occam's Razor]

ALPA could start by slashing some of those salaries in Herndon, especially those of the secretaries that make more than ALPA negotiated captain salaries, and put those into the PAC, that would be a start. Or maybe Prater could take a cut too, as have most ALPA members over these last couple of years.

Lead by example and all...

I love it!

Oh wait....you were serious!

Ulp!

I thought you were using sarcasm to make a point, but instead it appears you seriously think that slashing the pay of your employees is "leading by example".

We demand better pay and benefits...and more respect from our employers...but when it comes to the people who work for us, we should hammer 'em?

Do you see the problem with that?

Don't be fooled by the bogus numbers you've seen posted on anti-union websites by the shills of the CEO's who need more lucre to satisfy their amoral greed. If an ALPA secretary makes more than you it might be because he/she works for an organization that treats their employees fairly.

 

[Falconjet]

Until ALPA does an honest to goodness no bs poll, there will never be any way to truly tell whos "interest" is not being represented.

So far both sides interpret as they see fit, then run around yelling about alpa not representing their interests.

Prater has said that official policy is for keeping the rule as is, but the way he whispers it and puts it in microscopic print and then goes and puts the pragmatism bit in bold and yells it with a bullhorn makes it a little hard to tell sometimes.

Whatever, its clear the FAA doesn't care anyway, its mind is made up.

Getting waivers may or may not happen. These apaad guys are pretty savvy, and Marion's sentiment is with them.

Props to the APA. At least they figured out where they stood, and straight up said so. Even if they are whizzing into the wind, at least the world knows where they stand.

AMEN!

FJ

 

[Freight Dog]

Rez... with you being so full of solutions, why don't you suggest one? I've told you several times what my solutions were.

Are you saying the BRP is the way to go? Do you think it sends the correct message to airline managements and other government bodies who want to see cabotage, open skies, etc.?

Also, while you're at it, please tell me when and how being pragmatic ever benefited this profession?

 

[Freight Dog]

We have a genius in charge of the FAA. ALPA simply cannot compete with her...

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=f849643b-c050-4aea-b695-a60b2ba61db9&

Blakey flunked the Private Pilot Written..... FOUR TIMES!!

 

[Andy]

We have a genius in charge of the FAA. ALPA simply cannot compete with her...

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=f849643b-c050-4aea-b695-a60b2ba61db9&

Blakey flunked the Private Pilot Written..... FOUR TIMES!!

Um, note the date of the article. I find it a bit hard to believe.

 

[Freight Dog]

Heheheh