From the ALPA Age 60 Website...

[Flopgut]

Well Flopgut, I'm certainly not anymore deserving than anybody else, and I've got seven years to go under the present rules and if it doesn't change in this country I can always look for a flying job overseas and fly til I'm 65 if I want.
ALPA changed their stance against age 60 in 1980 under the pretense of safety but their wording was all about how everyone has a nice pension and everyone was hired with an expectation of retiring at 60 etc. I'm glad your father did well--although he probably did not enjoy his new career as much as flying, but your point also drives home the fact that there really is no unity in ALPA--only 40 or so seperate unions with very divergent interests. If you work for a carrier with a defined benefit plan you probably are more interested in retiring as early as possible before the plan goes tango uniform--if you work for a carrier that has a defined contribution plan you probably would like to be able to work longer to fund your plan more. Maybe just maybe you actually like your job and don't see why you should be arbitraily kicked out at a certain birthday.
Airlines didn't go out of business in the past-the Civil aeronautics board found a stronger airline for them to merge with-now it is dog eat dog- and the leanest, strongest, meanest, most innovative dog is going to win. I've flown with many pilots from Branniff 1 and 2, old Frontier, Eastern, old Continental, Transamerica, Capitol, etc etc etc at my airline that had to start over and I would not begrudge them the chance to work a few more years to be able to afford a better retirement.
Also, since foreign airlines are flying in our airspace, and since ALPA represents Canadian airlines and has signed contracts that have age 65 as a retirement age for them-they cannot claim that age 60 is a bona fide occupational qualification anymore--ALPA is breaking the law in discriminating against its most senior members- the Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967 forbids labor organizations from discriminating against their members because of age.

I don't quite understand your statement about this profession being one for everyone to take an equal turn at--its always been feast or famine-airlines hired pilots with 100 hours or less in the mid 60's and in the mid 70's you could have been #1 in your class in flight school, have 10 mig kills over Viet Nam, been a former Blue Angel, and have every rating in the book and never get an interview with anybody--its all timing--but that doesn't mean that since some airlines have done much better than others since 9-11 that continuing to institutionalize discrimnation is right.

Airfogey

It's seniority. Everybody understands how you get hired. Once you get hired, seniority progression takes over. That's how a Blue Angel functions seemlessly with a far less experienced [qualified] pilot who is senior to him/her. You're 53, a captain, and it looks like this could be a huge windfall to you. Of course you like it, but seniority progression has to suffer for you to get this.

There are so many things that can end our FAR 121 flying careers that it hurts to think about it. Dealing with a normal retirement age should be the easiest. And if you don't like 60, are you going to be happy with 65? Is everybody?

The corporate world doesn't have this simple seniority system. Airline pilots are spared the realities of getting to a certain age and having younger and less senior coworkers go ahead of them. Seniority let's us all take a turn at the best deal we can get until we are all equally discriminated against at age 60. It's a pretty clean deal, but you want to mess it up. You believe you're more special and deservant. You've got adequate seniority to insulate you from the worst schedules and are at the highest pay. You've got zero concern for the coworkers who will be working the worst schedule longer, so you're ready to remortgage their career for your own needs.

The reality is, younger workers go through older ones like poop through a goose. My old man had to learn that when he left flying. There are so many of you guys that have NO idea this goes on. You compare yourselves to other professions and it disgusts me. You've got to be more than just senior to get ahead in these other professions. Maybe you would like to do like some ICAO carriers and have rostering and assingments instead of seniority? Maybe you would like to have something like military rank and promotions instead? You think that Blue Angel is going to be your gearjerker? Think you'll be a captain? Look, you might be a Blue Angel and you might be the greatest pilot in the world. But there are too many old, lazy, washed out guys in professional situations similiar to yours to suggest guys like you have the whole game beat. Go find a job when you turn 60 and find out for yourself.

 

[Flopgut]

Some would call this reacting and others would call this forward-thinking. Depends on your viewpoint I guess. Please don't confuse the BRP with ALPA Policy and PAC activities, etc. The BRP has a very strict and limited mission and in that sense, the BRP is forward-thinking. Your frustration is with ALPA's overall action since the FAA's announcement.

-Neal

Neal: I just finished the survey. I'm disgusted.

You need a survey and an issue like retirement age to come up with the questions you've asked? If ALPA would LEAD on issues like retirement plans (have one maybe? start one?), medical issues (employ more doctors, do your own medicals Set the standards), and disability insurance (sieze that benefit from employer airlines and extend/manage it for the whole union) maybe we wouldn't have to be talking about working LONGER? ALPA's ever pragmatic approach is, I think, a smokescreen for not knowing what the he!! you're doing! Or, it's just another half answer to the problem ALPA always put's out right before they eat some of their own? Let's see, big payoff for senior members, screw job for the junior ones? Hmmm, I think I know where this is going. ALPA can NOT come up with a win/win? It's just too darn much to ask, eh? Can NOT actually FIX anything either? That wouldn't be "pragmatic".

I've communicated with JP. Heard nothing.

Forget the FA union thing. ALPA makes every union look smart.

If you think a few bucks isn't tipping the scale on this, you're crazy! Don't play dumb Neal, you're not anonymous on here (bet you wish you were with this ridiculous survey out). If this doesn't go the way JP wants it, he'll just have another BRP type thing to cloud it up a little more and have another survey. You're a smart guy, look at the last 30+ years. Fying the Line reads like a Greek tragedy my friend. ALPA's pragmatism is the furthest thing from what we actually need.

 

[Flopgut]

Neal:

Why don't we exclude the votes of members who have < 2 years left? It's sounds like it's not going to effect them, this is supposed to take a couple years. They need to focus on different things and so do those of us with many years to go.

Would a clearer message of what your membership wants have any bearing on what you're going to be doing?

 

[Falconjet]

Lets have the furloughed and probationary members "vote" as well.

FJ

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Lets have the furloughed and probationary members "vote" as well.

FJ

I am all for it... but don't you think we should walk before we run...

Last online survey only 1/3 of the eligible/active members even bothered to participate....

 

[FoxHunter]

Lets have the furloughed and probationary members "vote" as well.

FJ

Fine with me as long as you include the retired guys.

 

[Phaedrus]

Nice to see FoxHunter back on the prowl....now if only Undaunted and Klarko would return I'd feel whole again.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Neal:

Why don't we exclude the votes of members who have < 2 years left? It's sounds like it's not going to effect them, this is supposed to take a couple years. They need to focus on different things and so do those of us with many years to go.

We can separate out the information anyway we want and one of the ways we will do it is in the manner that you suggest. We'll also do it by airline, etc.

Would a clearer message of what your membership wants have any bearing on what you're going to be doing?

It will have a bearing on what the EB does as far as possible ALPA policy change, yes. Has no bearing on what we do on the BRP as the BRP has nothing to do with policy changes, etc.

-Neal

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Lets have the furloughed and probationary members "vote" as well.

FJ

Probationary members can participate in the online web survey.

-Neal

 

[Deuce130]

Does anyone have any new gouge on what the heck is going to happen? Alot of speculation is going on but does anyone know the when's and how's this thing is going to go down? I don't think it matters anymore who's for it or who's against it, something is going to happen. If it gets voted down in Congress or the FAA doesn't forward it won't have anything to do with how ALPA feels about it, it'll be for other reasons, I think. So, I think we can all quit complaining about it and start asking more pointed questions about when something will or will not change.

 

[Falconjet]

Probationary members can participate in the online web survey.

-Neal

Well its about time.

Thanks for the info Neal.

FJ

 

[Flopgut]

Didn't the first survey exclude many of the junior pilots who were furloughed? I think the best way to make it right is to exclude any pilot over 58 this time. It is not going to matter to them.

Let's just take the old survey and pull the votes of the >58 olds out. That would be the most abundantly fair thing to do. Prater propaganda is clouding the issue; With very little affect I think, but he IS trying to steer the vote.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Didn't the first survey exclude many of the junior pilots who were furloughed? I think the best way to make it right is to exclude any pilot over 58 this time. It is not going to matter to them.

Let's just take the old survey and pull the votes of the >58 olds out. That would be the most abundantly fair thing to do. Prater propaganda is clouding the issue; With very little affect I think, but he IS trying to steer the vote.

Flop,

To the best of my knowledge, Captain Prater had absolutely nothing to do with the survey.

-Neal