For All You FLOPS BJ Pilots, a little memory lane action

[jonjuan]

I guess that $10.2 Million Dollar fine against WN was in my imagination?

At actual, professionally run organizations, the management's relationships with FAA are often used to prevent government levied sanctions from being imposed, and allowing training and administrative sanction to be imposed instead.

Just my imagination, I'm sure.

So, WN isn't a professionally run organization?

 

[Tristar]

There isn't one managment team in any air carrier that is willing to break the rules.

Wow, not even out of March and I think we have a very strong contender for

FlightInfo's most moronic post of the year!

Exactly how much glue had you been sniffing when you came up with that gem?

 

[B19 Flyer]

Wow, not even out of March and I think we have a very strong contender for

FlightInfo's most moronic post of the year!

Exactly how much glue had you been sniffing when you came up with that gem?

The same glue you were sniffing by thinking that a union was good for your career.

I've seen a lot more pilots take things into their own hands thinking that they can get away with something than I ever have management intentionally making a decision to break an FAR.

Perhaps it's because management understands how easy it is to get caught and pilots think they can get away with it.

Oh, and about the injunctions agains unions.....

 

[B19 Flyer]

How could that possibly be?????

I guess that $10.2 Million Dollar fine against WN was in my imagination?

Or the $10 Million dollar management "mistake" at TAG over operational control issues?

Just my imagination, I'm sure.

Remember, those are your union bretheren breaking the rules at WN. They are one of the most heavily unionized carriers in existence.

All the union mongers on this board tell about how wonderful the union is at policing management, yet the fines still happened.... how could that possibly be?????

 

[Tristar]

Perhaps it's because management understands how easy it is to get caught and pilots think they can get away with it.

Wow, less than ten minutes later and we have a:

Runner up for FI's most Moronic post of the year.

Yeah, that's why managements throughout the entire industry push pilots to violate contracts and FAR's - eg; duty times, flying fatigued, performing proper maintenance, ect.

No, in fact management knows how EASY it is to get away with it. You're just careful to it in ways that can't be traced back to you - pilot's don't really have that luxury.

I don't believe a union is all that great for my career. Neither is working for a bunch of dirtballs who will lie, cheat, and steal every chance they can - which history definitely proves to be the typical post-deregulation model in the aviation industry. There is an old saying regarding companies and unions that seems to generally be true: "They got their union the old fashioned way, they earned it!"

Remember, those are your union bretheren breaking the rules at WN. They are one of the most heavily unionized carriers in existence.

Wouldn't it be management's job to oversee operations and insure that maintenance was being performed properly? I sort of thought that was one of the keystones of that whole concept.

Who decides when/where/how to perform maintenance in the macro sense - the workers or management? An individual violation is on the hands of the worker involved, and the fines or other penalties are directed at that individual. Systemic violations and failures are in the lap of management, and accordingly the company as a whole is held responsible. What would in fact be more appropriate (and end a lot of the abuse by management) would be if individual managers were held personally accountable, and civil or criminal penalties were levied directly against them.

 

[brokeflyer]

pissin into the wind here.....

PIC "has the final authority".....can't dispute that. It's like 2+2=4.....undisputable....

sorry b19

 

[FR8DOG777]

I say again where is the accountabilty??

So Bagdad B19bob, I see your crusade to drive the infidels from the company property are growing more incompetent and desperate on a daily basis. Maybe just a coincidink buckeye checks your name against the eastern scab list and you don't post whilst on vacation abusing company assets. You, Michael, and Sonjay have done more to ruin flight options in your short tenure than anyone ever could have immagined. Management has repeatedly broken the regs. Crew shopping, could not duplicate, parking airplanes in hangers for three days without pulling a panel and signing off a C check, pushing pilots, threating pilots, intimidating pilots, playing russian roulette with the pilots, passengers, and aircraft with your little 500 am standby games. Where is the accountability for all these blunders? Who is paying for it? I'll tell you, the hard working pilots that built this company for you to tear down. A lot of good men and woman will lose their houses and disrupt their families because of your incompetence. I sure hope you enjoy your riches in this life because your just reward is coming in the next life.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Barking up the wrong tree....

So Bagdad B19bob, I see your crusade to drive the infidels from the company property are growing more incompetent and desperate on a daily basis. Maybe just a coincidink buckeye checks your name against the eastern scab list and you don't post whilst on vacation abusing company assets. You, Michael, and Sonjay have done more to ruin flight options in your short tenure than anyone ever could have immagined. Management has repeatedly broken the regs. Crew shopping, could not duplicate, parking airplanes in hangers for three days without pulling a panel and signing off a C check, pushing pilots, threating pilots, intimidating pilots, playing russian roulette with the pilots, passengers, and aircraft with your little 500 am standby games. Where is the accountability for all these blunders? Who is paying for it? I'll tell you, the hard working pilots that built this company for you to tear down. A lot of good men and woman will lose their houses and disrupt their families because of your incompetence. I sure hope you enjoy your riches in this life because your just reward is coming in the next life.

Barking up the wrong tree pal.... woof woof... it's not me. I wouldn't have put up with the crap I read on these boards.

Take your problems to your union leadership. They will fix everything for you. Isn't that what they promised?

 

[B19 Flyer]

Sorry broke, but thems the facts.

pissin into the wind here.....

PIC "has the final authority".....can't dispute that. It's like 2+2=4.....undisputable....

sorry b19

Exactly right. I agree.. always have.

However, the interpretation you use to detirmine that final authority can't be derived from a message board. Those standards are derived from only the manufacturer.

If you use YOUR standards, you are not doing your job and you should be fired as unsafe.

If you use YOUR standards to detirmine that a component is not working, that means you are also using YOUR standards to detirmine how a componant IS working. How is one to know if an item is airworthy or not if you aren't using the book as written?

In either case, you aren't doing your job properly.

Companies trend the data, they compile the data, look for outliers and find those that aren't doing their job as they were trained. Those pilots get sanctioned, unions have court injunctions slapped against them and the world is right again.

Union slowdowns have always been dangerous...Sorry broke, but thems the facts.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Unions speak with forked tongues.

Wow, less than ten minutes later and we have a:

Runner up for FI's most Moronic post of the year.

Yeah, that's why managements throughout the entire industry push pilots to violate contracts and FAR's - eg; duty times, flying fatigued, performing proper maintenance, ect.

No, in fact management knows how EASY it is to get away with it. You're just careful to it in ways that can't be traced back to you - pilot's don't really have that luxury.

I don't believe a union is all that great for my career. Neither is working for a bunch of dirtballs who will lie, cheat, and steal every chance they can - which history definitely proves to be the typical post-deregulation model in the aviation industry. There is an old saying regarding companies and unions that seems to generally be true: "They got their union the old fashioned way, they earned it!"



Wouldn't it be management's job to oversee operations and insure that maintenance was being performed properly? I sort of thought that was one of the keystones of that whole concept.

Who decides when/where/how to perform maintenance in the macro sense - the workers or management? An individual violation is on the hands of the worker involved, and the fines or other penalties are directed at that individual. Systemic violations and failures are in the lap of management, and accordingly the company as a whole is held responsible. What would in fact be more appropriate (and end a lot of the abuse by management) would be if individual managers were held personally accountable, and civil or criminal penalties were levied directly against them.

Your perception of violations is incorrect. I don't have the time this morning to school you on those. But you are way off base as far as what gets tagged to the individual and what goes toward the company.

In either case, all the people on these board scream that their the union is there to protect them. I keep telling them that the union won't be there when they need them, but nobody will listen.

Your statements are living and breathing proof that you don't care about your union intervention to make your job safer or protect your legal interests, that's still all on the company even though the union promises they will intervene. Unions speak with forked tongues. Unions don't have any legal responsibility, when things go wrong they ALWAYS pass the buck back onto management. Unions never admit one of their members made a mistake, it's always the other guy.

However..... give me the money...... because that's all a union is good for nowadays... and that's your basic union attitude.

When something goes wrong, you union guys always blame the company even though the union promises that they will intervene and change policy for the better.

 

[fischman]

Exactly right. I agree.. always have.

However, the interpretation you use to detirmine that final authority can't be derived from a message board. Those standards are derived from only the manufacturer.

You REALLY aren't too bright are you? The standards are NOT derived from the manufacturer. They are derived from the FAA (that's the "Federal Aviation Administration" in case you didn't know:erm.

Here's the reference, AGAIN:

Sec. 91.3

Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.

(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.


AGAIN, B19, this hasn't changed since 1963. If you don't understand it, you have no place in the cockpit, in management, in the 91k rule making process, or riding in the back of an airliner as a passenger. As a matter of fact, if you can't understand this, I would prefer it if you wouldn't even look at any airplanes. Please feel free to send me a PM if you have any further questions on the matter. It is pretty easy, black and white, no room for interpretation.

Take Tylenol for any headaches, Midol for any cramps.




P.S. "detirmine" is spelled "determine".

 

[shanes123]

Everyone needs to stop replying to B19 aka Bob T..He has been outted..By his little screw up last week of not posting while he was on vacation. Dont waste your time with that Moron. He just wastes the threads on this board. Lets keep the posts here important.

 

[FR8DOG777]

You ain't my pal, we don't need to know who you specifically are to know what you represent. I will continue to "apply my own standards" of this list and anything else that I see relevantto ensure the safe operation of the aircraft entrusted to me. You can tell your superiors the longer they keep dragging this process out the longer the "stagnation" will continue while a union shop takes more of our customers. And yes Bob Tyler has no business gallavanting around in a corporate jet if times are so tough and while 216 of us are figuring out how to make our next house payment.

 

[B19 Flyer]

You REALLY aren't too bright are you? The standards are NOT derived from the manufacturer. They are derived from the FAA (that's the "Federal Aviation Administration" in case you didn't know:erm.

Here's the reference, AGAIN:

Sec. 91.3

Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.

(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.


AGAIN, B19, this hasn't changed since 1963. If you don't understand it, you have no place in the cockpit, in management, in the 91k rule making process, or riding in the back of an airliner as a passenger. As a matter of fact, if you can't understand this, I would prefer it if you wouldn't even look at any airplanes. Please feel free to send me a PM if you have any further questions on the matter. It is pretty easy, black and white, no room for interpretation.

Take Tylenol for any headaches, Midol for any cramps.




P.S. "detirmine" is spelled "determine".

The spelling nazi strikes again.... he can tell you how to spell a word but hasn't a clue as to who designs and approves an aircraft system.

The manufacturer designs the product, writes the policies and procedures on how a system is to be used and the FAA approves/certifies that the product will perform as designed. Thankfully for all of us, the FAA doesn't design the product or specify how it will be used.

You really aren't very good at this, are you?


And as I've stated.. the pilot has the final authority. But if you are applying incorrect standards, you are unsafe and deserve to be sanctioned by the courts before an accident happens or worse.

 

[B19 Flyer]

You ain't my pal, we don't need to know who you specifically are to know what you represent. I will continue to "apply my own standards" of this list and anything else that I see relevantto ensure the safe operation of the aircraft entrusted to me. You can tell your superiors the longer they keep dragging this process out the longer the "stagnation" will continue while a union shop takes more of our customers. And yes Bob Tyler has no business gallavanting around in a corporate jet if times are so tough and while 216 of us are figuring out how to make our next house payment.

It never ceases to amaze me how a pilot or any other corporate employee that hasn't the ability to get to a level where they can run a multimillion dollar company themselves can complain about a corporate perk that may or may not include the use of a corporate jet.

Did he go anyplace in that jet you couldn't have gone for free by using the skymiles you've earned flying commercially on the company's dime?

How about the points you get from the hotel reward programs you have. Did he stay in any hotels that you couldn't have stayed in with the amount of points you earned that the company paid for?

I've said before, if you are flying for a living, odds are you've never been in a COO or CEO position in a company that produces muli-million dollar revenue and accepted the reponsibility that goes along with it. Perhaps you haven't the education or experience.

Until you do, you haven't a right to complain about it. You are just part of the union mob wishing you could be where he is.

 

[waka]

deleted

never mind.


B19, get yourself checked for a brain tumor.

 

[shanes123]

Its not a brain tumor he needs to go get checked for..ITS A BRAIN

 

[fischman]

The spelling nazi strikes again.... he can tell you how to spell a word but hasn't a clue as to who designs and approves an aircraft system. I fully realize who designs what. Who sets parameters, and who has the FINAL AUTHORITY AS TO THE OPERATION of the aircraft.

The manufacturer designs the product, writes the policies and procedures on how a system is to be used and the FAA approves/certifies that the product will perform as designed. Thankfully for all of us, the FAA doesn't design the product or specify how it will be used.

You really aren't very good at this, are you? Look in the mirror. I'm better than you.


And as I've stated.. the pilot has the final authority. But if you are applying incorrect standards, you are unsafe and deserve to be sanctioned by the courts before an accident happens or worse.

Bring the courts on. I'd welcome that battle, and when I win the case, I'll ram it down your throat everyday.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Bring the courts on. I'd welcome that battle, and when I win the case, I'll ram it down your throat everyday.

The problem is fischman, case history has already been established by Judge Bertelsman. You lose.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Look in the mirror. I'm better than you.

fischman, you can think you are better than me if you want.. that's fine.

However, every time you operate in either 91k or 135 you fly under words that I personally drafted.

There is NOTHING that I do in this industry now or in the future that will EVER be based on policy you set, but you can rest assured that policy I set will help to keep cowboys like you safe.


So, while you want to think you are better than me, you are free to do so. It's a free country and this country needs dreamers like you.


But …. my efforts always impact you when you fly and make it safer for you.

I'm free from your union and tyranny.


You shoulda been there fischman.. it was a heluva ride.

 

[waka]

fischman, you can think you are better than me if you want.. that's fine.

However, every time you operate in either 91k or 135 you fly under words that I personally drafted.

There is NOTHING that I do in this industry now or in the future that will EVER be based on policy you set, but you can rest assured that policy I set will help to keep cowboys like you safe.


So, while you want to think you are better than me, you are free to do so. It's a free country and this country needs dreamers like you.


But …. my efforts always impact you when you fly and make it safer for you.

I'm free from your union and tyranny.


You shoulda been there fischman.. it was a heluva ride.

What a self-congratulating narcissistic twit! The only way you keep us safe is by you not being eligible for a medical.

 

[fischman]

The problem is fischman, case history has already been established by Judge Bertelsman. You lose.

One case. One circumstance. Whoop-dee-doo.

 

[993_Pilot]

... However, every time you operate in either 91k or 135 you fly under words that I personally drafted...

...There is NOTHING that I do in this industry now or in the future that will EVER be based on policy you set, but you can rest assured that policy I set will help to keep cowboys like you safe...

...You shoulda been there fischman.. it was a heluva ride.

You are so frickin' full of yourself, it's unbelieveable!

It was a fairly large committee who drafted those regs, and lots of people had a hand in it, myself included . . . along with all the fractionals, and several charter operators. Most of the discussion seemed to be whining like "it isn't fair that the 91K guys can do this, but us 135 have to do that". It was a major bitch session from the beginning to the end. Quit acting like you personally drafted any reg that keeps us safe. If you did actually have a hand in any of it, you know that the whole committee was more about the politics of 135 vs. 91K, than trying to keep anyone safe. Get off your friggin' high horse!

 

[gunfyter]

He knows all he did was try to get the FAA to relax the Duty snd Rest rules... to favor management....

 

[skanza]

So Bagdad B19bob, I see your crusade to drive the infidels from the company property are growing more incompetent and desperate on a daily basis. Maybe just a coincidink buckeye checks your name against the eastern scab list and you don't post whilst on vacation abusing company assets. You, Michael, and Sonjay have done more to ruin flight options in your short tenure than anyone ever could have immagined. Management has repeatedly broken the regs. Crew shopping, (1)could not duplicate, (2)parking airplanes in hangers for three days without pulling a panel and signing off a C check, pushing pilots, threating pilots, intimidating pilots, playing russian roulette with the pilots, passengers, and aircraft with your little 500 am standby games. Where is the accountability for all these blunders? Who is paying for it? I'll tell you, the hard working pilots that built this company for you to tear down. A lot of good men and woman will lose their houses and disrupt their families because of your incompetence. I sure hope you enjoy your riches in this life because your just reward is coming in the next life.

These are some pretty extreme claims.
First, what's wrong with CND? You assume it's to just clear the paperwork because mean-old management has is out for you and they pressure the mechanic into signing it. Wrong. I believe the mechanic puts his butt on the line when he signs the paperwork - these guys would not give into pressure from management to anything unsafe...even if it were true.
Second, your claim about a pencil-whipped C-check needs to be verified be facts. Have you spent time in the hangar monitoring what gets done to the aircraft while it's down for the check to make sure it gets done? Didn't think so. Do you even know what is involved in a C-check? Neither do I, but we trust that it has been done according to the logbook and proceed to get in and fly.
Stop whining fool.

 

[993_Pilot]

He knows all he did was try to get the FAA to relax the Duty snd Rest rules... to favor management....

If he did actually have any hand in it, you are probably right. The fractionals didn't want to have any restrictions placed on them, and the 135 guys wanted a level playing field so they wouldn't be at a competitive disadvantage. As screwed up as they are, the FAA is the only one who really had anyones safety in mind.

 

[B19 Flyer]

One case. One circumstance. Whoop-dee-doo.

How many do you need to set a precedent? One.

 

[B19 Flyer]

You are so frickin' full of yourself, it's unbelieveable!

It was a fairly large committee who drafted those regs, and lots of people had a hand in it, myself included . . . along with all the fractionals, and several charter operators. Most of the discussion seemed to be whining like "it isn't fair that the 91K guys can do this, but us 135 have to do that". It was a major bitch session from the beginning to the end. Quit acting like you personally drafted any reg that keeps us safe. If you did actually have a hand in any of it, you know that the whole committee was more about the politics of 135 vs. 91K, than trying to keep anyone safe. Get off your friggin' high horse!

All I'm doing is stating facts. Fischman stated he's better than me and I'm agreeing with him. I just stated that I've influenced his career more than he has mine. Take it for what it's worth.

Also, I don't agree with your take on it. The politics were there for sure, but that's just another day there.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Pure and simple

These are some pretty extreme claims.
First, what's wrong with CND? You assume it's to just clear the paperwork because mean-old management has is out for you and they pressure the mechanic into signing it. Wrong. I believe the mechanic puts his butt on the line when he signs the paperwork - these guys would not give into pressure from management to anything unsafe...even if it were true.
Second, your claim about a pencil-whipped C-check needs to be verified be facts. Have you spent time in the hangar monitoring what gets done to the aircraft while it's down for the check to make sure it gets done? Didn't think so. Do you even know what is involved in a C-check? Neither do I, but we trust that it has been done according to the logbook and proceed to get in and fly.
Stop whining fool.

Skanza,

They don't get that all I've ever done on this subject is try to get the point across that the standards don't come off a message board, they come out of the manufacturer's book.

I've stated how they are going to get caught with statistical outliers.

I've stated that if they are going to used their own standards to detirmine when an item is broken, they they sure as hell are using their own standards to detirmine when something is airworthy.

Those that use their own standards to detirmine if an item is airworthy are breaking the rules.

If they are using their own standards to slow the air carrier down, they are subject to sanctioning by the courts and the company.

It's simple... they just don't get it. I think those guys leaning on the authority of the PIC are unsafe.

They get what they ask for when they get caught being unsafe. Pure and simple.

 

[FR8DOG777]

how is unemployment treating you there skumza? Good to see all your management ass kissing really paid off for you. I have forgotten more about aviation and aviation maintenance than you will ever learn in a lifetime kid. If they ever pull that crap again I will blow the whistle with the FAA