Flops TA

[TurboHonda]

Jeez, I thought your ball was black, just like your soul. This was always about more than cash...But you never got that. It was never about the money, but you and your kind continue to try and make it just that.
Good luck....You loose!

You're exactly right. If it was just cash, we'd have taken the appeasement/payoff 3 years ago. But, It wasn't a contract. Whatever they offered then could have been taken away just as quickly and easily as it was given. Work rules would have been whatever they could get the POI to sign off on. FAA regs would have been only a suggestion.

Congratulations to everyone that believed and held on.

No, I'm not from South Dakota.

 

[hydrarkt]

This is great insight and advice. The importance of not only READING but UNDERSTANDING all sections of the TA can't be over emphasized.

I don't know that our E-board is going to handle the TA education process with a road show, but they've stated they will "conduct an extensive, interactive educational campaign about the tentative agreement". Will they stipulate both the pros and cons of our first TA during this campaign? I think it would be wise for them to do so, but we'll have to wait and see.

DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT trust your Eboard!!! Or should I say, trust but verify. Don't believe any statistics or projections that they quote without independent verification. They may all be great guys. But contract negotiations involve back door dealings that nobody will find out about.
One day, your Eboard is touting how great the CBA is. Then, once it's voted in, half of them bail to work for management... something fishy?? Don't think that it can happen to you?

 

[skanza]

Good post ca1900. I will be the first to play devils advocate. There are always reasons for union and non-union to argue there sides, just like republicans and democrats. The point is, its better for our company and the union to have a contract in writing. I just don't see how anyone can hate the fact that this has come to a TA. Really, you non-union guys, if you don't like working for a union company now quite. And I've said if you union guys don't like working for a non-union company - than you quit. Heaven forbid we got something in writing to better every one. Its not only about the pay and everything else its the fact of having a document that can back up the pilots and work rules.

I have never seen so many trying to piss on a good thing. It looks like the non-union supports are also trying to blame the union for the down turn in the economy too. Well I much rather take a bit less now and have a company to come back to, than took a 3 page contract with more pay and then Flops realized opps..we paid to much and need to furlough more or shut down. BS! I've heard a lot of you guys saying that closing the doors is the only option to not "getting what you want" out of a contract. Come on, which is it?

B19 that is what you seem to have a problem with. We should have took the early pay raise and be done. Well, what kind of shape would that have left the company. More layoffs most likely. Now we have something based on today's economy and for improvement towards the future. Why argue against that.

well its late and I'm breaking my rule of posting at certain hours. Lets wait and see what the details are. Thank you to the MEC and the company for getting us something to vote on!

.....

 

[Joe Jet Pilot]

DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT trust your Eboard!!! Or should I say, trust but verify. Don't believe any statistics or projections that they quote without independent verification. They may all be great guys. But contract negotiations involve back door dealings that nobody will find out about.
One day, your Eboard is touting how great the CBA is. Then, once it's voted in, half of them bail to work for management... something fishy?? Don't think that it can happen to you?

We would know......look at BO

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

B19


Just to point out Japan Airlines is non union and hires only at will contract employees. That would be your version of non union utopia. By the way they just filed for bankruptcy. How is that the union's fault? Maybe you can ask BT. He used to work there.


To all the Options pilots except Ed best of luck with the TA. Ed if this TA passes your special deal will end. Maybe BT will offer you another special deal at his next employer.

 

[B19 Flyer]

B19


Just to point out Japan Airlines is non union and hires only at will contract employees. That would be your version of non union utopia. By the way they just filed for bankruptcy. How is that the union's fault? Maybe you can ask BT. He used to work there.


To all the Options pilots except Ed best of luck with the TA. Ed if this TA passes your special deal will end. Maybe BT will offer you another special deal at his next employer.

This isn't my utopia. You need to go for a DOT drug test.

What I've said all along, is that bringing a union onto a property puts the entire company at risk, stagnates the company, costs jobs- both pilot and non-pilot for little to nothing gained at the end.

This is classic, what is happening now is exactly what I said would happen. Just like all the other things you union guys said wouldn't but have.

Had 1108 not been so greedy 3 years ago (NJA being the standard) you would have had a reasonable contract that may have stood up under economic pressure.

Instead, typical union greed got in the way and the FLOPS pilots along with the rest of the company have gone through 3 years of typical union hell, with nearly nothing truly gained in the end compared to what could have been acheived in the beginning.

I just don't see where the non-union fracs have gone through the hell that NJA and FLOPS has over the last three years.

Speaking of utopia, how are those NJA pilots doing with their high cost contract?

I'm still amazed NJW isn't out there talking about all those great benefits and job security that the contract provided.

 

[dime line]

What a Moron.

Bich you lost, your just about out of a job. This contract will be somewhat less than others (and I'm ok with that, the union never promissed us anything), but I will have protections from you, Mays, Kellers, Schtfingers, Mrkrs, and any other morons I forgot about, oh wait the PSMs too.
Good luck 19, break a leg, get into a car accident, get a new job, or just get drunk.

 

[brokeflyer]

im glad to hear this news.

the problem is corporate greed is destroying a lot of companies. managers and CEO's just butt rape a company and the people who actully do all the work so bad they bleed.

unions have nothing to do with any of this. if management would pay employees for the job, they would have this trouble.

 

[fischman]

Speaking of utopia, how are those NJA pilots doing with their high cost contract?
...all those great benefits and job security that the contract provided.

I'm very happy with our pilots, our union, and our CBA. Thanks for asking.

Please tell me how our contract hurts the job security of our pilots? All the CBA does in this regard is maintain recall rights, and protect our own jobs via sell-off protection. The company maintains staffing level at its own discretion. NJASAP has little to no say about it.

But you wouldn't know anything about that would you? You've never read our CBA, but spew out misinformation as if you were an expert. Please don't stop though. Watching you prove your ignorance on a daily basis is the most entertaining thing on FI.com.

Tell me, KB. Why do you care? You've got it made at a non-union company that flies wide body turboprops internationally.

 

[brokeflyer]

lololol fisch.


b19 what you call "greed" we pilots call "climbing out of poverty"

Ive worked both sides and i will tell you that the management side is pure evil. I retired from management at a major and the stories i could tell.....i have no love unions, but i also have no love for management $hitting all over everyone for their own gain.

You say unions are greedy? Ill agree with that, but i'd rather be called gordon gekko than be called a liar. I feel bad that you wish pilots to be so under paid.

treat employees fair, after all they do all the work. and pay them a fair wage and you'll see unions begin to disappear.

simple as that.

 

[imacdog]

I just don't see where the non-union fracs have gone through the hell that NJA and FLOPS has over the last three years.

Good point! It's not like FlexJet and CitationShares(Air) furloughed pilots.

Oh, wait.................

Just exactly how stupid are you?

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

b19


Not to confuse you with facts but the chaos at Flight Options was mostly due to the stripping of assets out of Options by Raytheon to facilitate the sale of RAC. The asset movement started before the union drive. The union was mearly a reaction to the things that were going on at the company at the time. As Bob Tyler has been quoted as saying "we have to fix some things around here or we are going to get the union we deserve."


Again congrats to the IBT and the Options pilots on reaching this important milestone. Hopefully the TA is worthy and some better days will come your way.

 

[ultrarunner]

So where are the numbers????

 

[ProFracPilot]

So where are the numbers????

We were told that over the next week (as of last Friday), both the union and the company would be proofreading the TA for errors and typos. I sincerely hope our leardership understands by this point it would be a terrible mistake to have have underestimated the one-week time period to review the TA. Patience is about gone, on both sides. I'd say if the TA is not released to the pilots by this coming Monday, then we should be standing on the desk of the E-board demanding to see it.

 

[ultrarunner]

Proof-ready and typos??? OMG. Wouldn't that have been done before you gave the membership a hard-on about a TA? I mean, when you announce a TA, I would think you'd want it in the hands of the membership PRONTO!

So, your NC and Mgt have been checking for typos for 6 days now?

That's pretty funny!

 

[shanes123]

As Bob Tyler has been quoted as saying "we have to fix some things around here or we are going to get the union we deserve........

B19 is Bob Tyler....

 

[ProFracPilot]

Proof-ready and typos??? OMG. Wouldn't that have been done before you gave the membership a hard-on about a TA? I mean, when you announce a TA, I would think you'd want it in the hands of the membership PRONTO!

So, your NC and Mgt have been checking for typos for 6 days now?

That's pretty funny!

Eh, glad you enjoyed the joke.

If you've been following our negotiations, you would know that the final mediated negotiating session ended last Thursday. Assume for a moment that the "agreement" came in the 11th hour of that session. If I follow your thinking, the E-Board should not have announced that we had a TA until all the loose ends were tied up. Another week? Two? Instead, they've committed to a time frame to present the TA and we'll hold them to that. A few more days isn't going to matter at this point.

Make no mistake - getting the word out ASAP after the agreement is part of the strategy (from both parties) to get the pilots pumped up in an attempt to ratify the TA on the first vote. Everyone is "excited" about the possibility that this thing could be over. And I'm as anxious as anyone to read it. But I'm also using this time to get the word out and remind everyone that when it is released, they need to READ and UNDERSTAND all sections of the TA before deciding which way to vote. The company and E-Board are going to do all they can to sell this thing. If it doesn't meet a certain standard, it will get a no vote from me and I'll be encouraging others to do the same.

 

[ultrarunner]

I'd agree with you there ProFac.....just sort of makes you go hum when they're hanging out making sure T's are crossed and I's are dotted for a week. That sort of stuff can be accomplished while the NC is out doing the road-shows.

But you are correct, IF in fact they're just checking for typos, a day or two 'aint gonna matter.

 

[Lear70]

I'd agree with you there ProFac.....just sort of makes you go hum when they're hanging out making sure T's are crossed and I's are dotted for a week. That sort of stuff can be accomplished while the NC is out doing the road-shows.

No. That's not how it works. Not if you want to get it right the first time.

But you are correct, IF in fact they're just checking for typos, a day or two 'aint gonna matter.

And that's a good time frame for proofreading. Rule of thumb, you never proofread your own work. You'll miss stuff, guaranteed. 2-3 people need to proofread the entire thing from front to back, checking for inconsistent language, bad references to previous paragraphs, etc.

When I was comparing the two T.A.'s at AirTran to current book, you would not BELIEVE the number of typos, bad paragraph references, and just poor language I found. It looks REALLY unprofessional when you do that...

The standard practice is to provide printed copies of the entire T.A. at the road shows, so they likely want to make sure it's right before it comes out but, like you also said, 2-3 days is plenty of time to correct everything, bounce it back to the company with the changes highlighted in the margins, get them to agree to the changes, then print copies and schedule road shows. Assuming that's all they're focused on doing at this point...

Best of luck!

 

[Narrow Bridge]

What a Moron.

Bich you lost, your just about out of a job. This contract will be somewhat less than others (and I'm ok with that, the union never promissed us anything), but I will have protections from you, Mays, Kellers, Schtfingers, Mrkrs, and any other morons I forgot about, oh wait the PSMs too.
Good luck 19, break a leg, get into a car accident, get a new job, or just get drunk.

If you really think thats true, you are clueless. They promised the world and wont be delivering. Thats the bottom line. They didnt get it done, you know it, and now your trying to sugar coat it. There is going to be 2 votes upcomming, one to accept the TA and the other to vote the 1108 out.

 

[dime line]

If you really think thats true, you are clueless. They promised the world and wont be delivering. Thats the bottom line. They didnt get it done, you know it, and now your trying to sugar coat it. There is going to be 2 votes upcomming, one to accept the TA and the other to vote the 1108 out.

What did they promise? Looks like we have a TA (voted in or not) the E board got it done.

 

[johnsonrod]

Have the details of the TA been published yet? Any highlights (or lowlights)?

 

[William Holiday]

If you really think thats true, you are clueless. They promised the world and wont be delivering. Thats the bottom line. They didnt get it done, you know it, and now your trying to sugar coat it. There is going to be 2 votes upcomming, one to accept the TA and the other to vote the 1108 out.

Ahhh, good luck with that, your still dreaming after all these years.

 

[flydog1]

"They promised the world and wont be delivering" The world really?? I don't recall that do you Dime? It seems the non union guys are more hung up on the money than the rest of us. Oh yeah, that's because we know its about far more than the money, that's just a piece of it.

I think they thought it would never happen and now it has. Well I hope they enjoy all the things in the new contract that they didn't support once we vote it in. You're welcome guys! No seriously, Thank Yous are not needed. You're just welcome.

 

[William Holiday]

Yeah, time to SHUT-UP.....and write a big check so the rest of us can fiance our hanger party.

 

[William Holiday]

Yeah, time to SHUT-UP.....and write a big check so the rest of us can fiance our hanger party.

Alright...OMG..I'm kidding, can't take a joke either before the phone starts ringing. jeez

 

[shanes123]

I have a serious question, could someone seriously answer that knows for a fact: There are a few Die Hard Anti Union Pilots at Flops..Would it be possible for them to go to the union and not pay them any dues ever and in return not receive the new pay scale, and other bennies that will be given with the contract..Since a few have fought to even decertify the union..why should they reap the benefits of the contract???

 

[chainring]

I have a serious question, could someone seriously answer that knows for a fact: There are a few Die Hard Anti Union Pilots at Flops..Would it be possible for them to go to the union and not pay them any dues ever and in return not receive the new pay scale, and other bennies that will be given with the contract..Since a few have fought to even decertify the union..why should they reap the benefits of the contract???

Options will be a Union shop. If you want to work there you will have to pay dues. And if you arent a MIGS you get no vote on the TA.

 

[OldCrow]

If you really think thats true, you are clueless. They promised the world and wont be delivering. Thats the bottom line. They didnt get it done, you know it, and now your trying to sugar coat it. There is going to be 2 votes upcomming, one to accept the TA and the other to vote the 1108 out.

What color is the sky in YOUR world...?!?!? I don't think you even have to have one, but if you did, you're going to have probs passing your next
class I. Either piss test, or mental probs.

 

[dime line]

If you really think thats true, you are clueless. They promised the world and wont be delivering. Thats the bottom line. They didnt get it done, you know it, and now your trying to sugar coat it. There is going to be 2 votes upcomming, one to accept the TA and the other to vote the 1108 out.

Yea and your such a piece of sh.. that you will accept the contract as is, accept the pay raise, and you will write the check for back dues, and you will continue to talk smack with the PSM's, PM's and all of your other cronys who hate unions. And if you need help (because you suck at your job), you will be first to call the union.
Good luck with that.

After the contract is signed, you will still be spineless and on your knees!!

Ps. and if you dont like being unionized, QUIT!