Flops TA

[Dassault]

If it's anything less than the industry leading contract that 1108 promised over three years ago, then it was exactly what I said it would be...... lots of turmoil, lots of hell with little to gain over the long period of time.

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Don't you think it is ridiculous to have the same expectations for the contract that you had during the peak of the economy to the largest financial disaster since the great depression? Pretty sad statement.

 

[ProFracPilot]

A year and a half ago the Union boys turned down a 25% pay raise for us. They promised they could do better. We will soon discover their worth.

Really. And you were on the negotiating committee...when??

I think all FlOps pilots will take the time and read the TA within the context in which it was crafted: Post furlough and in a deep economic recession. In the 3+ years since negotiations began the game has changed, folks.

How does one define "industry standard" in these economic times? For example, is it only by achieving BASE PAY parity with our competitors? Or will it be defined by other, cutting edge ideas such as both an across the board pay increase coupled with bonus compensation tied to measurable performance of the company?

I have no idea what all is in the TA, and won't know until it is released to the rank and file. So I can't say unequivocally that it will garner a "yes" vote from me. But when released, myself and every other FlOps pilot needs to read, learn, and understand the TA in total before making a yes/no decision.

We have only reached one more marker - albeit a major one - on the road to achieving a CBA. There is still more work to be done, much of it by us - the rank and file. Let's git-er-done.

 

[BlueNose]

Airline Division Press Release

First Contract for Pilots Reached at Flight Options

After more than three and a half years of contract negotiations, the pilots of Flight Options, represented by Local 1108, have reached a tentative agreement with management on a first contract.

In addition to the inherent problems of negotiating a first contract, Local 1108 also dealt with circumstances that few pilot groups have ever faced. Ownership and senior management changes several times during the long bargaining process and the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression, that disproportionately impacted the entire fractional aviation sector made reaching a first contract exceptionally difficult.

Upon being notified of the agreement, Airline Division Director David Bourne said, "It's been my pleasure to work with the leadership and Negotiating Committee of Local 1108 during their negotiations. Throughout a long and difficult process, they demonstrated a total devotion to professionalism and to representing their pilots. I am very happy for the members of Local 1108 and commend the leadership and committee for a job well done."

The proposed tentative agreement contains a variety of improvements, including across the board pay increases for every pilot, longevity-based salary increases, scope and job security protections, a grievance and arbitration procedure, additional PTO for vacation and sick day use, eligibility for overtime for early duty start times on the first day of a tour, a protected crew basing system, seniority based furlough/recall, schedule and vacation bidding, insurance and benefit security, future improvements to the 401(k) plan, a 7&7 schedule, extended recall rights for furloughed pilots, improved leave of absence provisions, safety-based duty and rest protections verifiable mechanism that increases pilot compensation as the business rebounds.

Management and Union representatives will meet next week to proofread the tentative agreement.

 

[dime line]

A year and a half ago the Union boys turned down a 25% pay raise for us. They promised they could do better. We will soon discover their worth.

That was what they offered us when the RIF pilots happened. Were you one of the pilots that wanted to forget about the 70, and take the companys 3 page contract?

 

[waka]

I haven't see the TA, but I'll bet that it's a contract that could have been had 3 years ago had 1108 not been so greedy in promising the FLOPS guys the world...

Once again, you show your ignorance by talking out of your ass. There is no way that Scheeringa would have signed a contract without a union exercising their right to organize.

 

[Myster79]

Easy girls.

The Announcement said they got it done. I didn't see anything about what a "big victory" it was for the 1108.

I still think the 1108 is a Joke and am surprised that the International let them get away with all the amateur monkey business.

There you are, I missed you buddy. Why don't you think about that more as you pound some salt!

 

[Myster79]

If it's anything less than the industry leading contract that 1108 promised over three years ago, then it was exactly what I said it would be...... lots of turmoil, lots of hell with little to gain over the long period of time.

Measure the success by the original promises made by 1108, not what winds up in the final contract.

I haven't see the TA, but I'll bet that it's a contract that could have been had 3 years ago had 1108 not been so greedy in promising the FLOPS guys the world...

Hey buddy! I missed ya! Please read my response to secondsegment as it applies to you also..... Moron

 

[BeenThereDoneIt]

Grown men hating on each other......ruining the industry for each other.....too bad

 

[OHGOON]

Funny, when there were only endless negotiations in sight, the IBT1108 was to blame for the lack of measurable progress, now the first TA is at hand and the union haters know it's a failure from jump street. Seems to me they are unable to eat crow and admit that despite all their unreasoned prejudice there has been progress, real progress......they can't stand it.

Congratulations to the whole FLOPS community. Details not withstanding, you have achieved something big in trying times no less. Congratulations!!

 

[wacoflyr]

Grown men hating on each other......ruining the industry for each other.....too bad

You aren't even employed as a pilot, much less in this industry. And the bile you have spewed toward pilots has been far worse than anything in this thread. Sorry for the thread hijack.

 

[William Holiday]

Grown men hating on each other......ruining the industry for each other.....too bad

Ahhhh, the dudes doing the happy dance right now are the sales guy's in CGF. Now they have a product they can sell, you can bet they want this signed more than the pilots.

Who's pissed ?... F.H. Now they have to come up with a whole new way to sell their services to the Airline Industry, about the only thing they will be able to say is how much money F.O. saved in the last seven years. Trust me....they will never speak about the income lost and shear damage that was done to this company by not treating people like people.


Who's pissed ?... Talk to any CEO from any other frac, you can bet on a collective sigh and hmmmmm.

 

[ghostrider64]

First Contract for Pilots Reached at Flight Options


The proposed tentative agreement contains a variety of improvements, including across the board pay increases for every pilot, longevity-based salary increases, scope and job security protections, a grievance and arbitration procedure, additional PTO for vacation and sick day use, eligibility for overtime for early duty start times on the first day of a tour, a protected crew basing system, seniority based furlough/recall, schedule and vacation bidding, insurance and benefit security, future improvements to the 401(k) plan, a 7&7 schedule, extended recall rights for furloughed pilots, improved leave of absence provisions, safety-based duty and rest protections verifiable mechanism that increases pilot compensation as the business rebounds.

Sounds like they cut and pasted from the old NJA contract doesn't it? I was hoping you guys would get something that would improve the industry rather than just go along with what NJA already has.

Be forewarned that any loophole you read in it will be exploited by the company. So take your time , read carefully, and make damned sure you are willing to live for years after the amendable date with it's provisions, before you sign.

Congrats just the same. It's a wonderful feeling to actually have something to vote on.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Grown men hating on each other......ruining the industry for each other.....too bad

How do you know how big they are?

 

[imacdog]

Sounds like they cut and pasted from the old NJA contract doesn't it? I was hoping you guys would get something that would improve the industry rather than just go along with what NJA already has.

Even if it's similar to the NJA contract, it will be a good first step in the right direction. Besides, other than the early show OT, most contracts do contain sections on the topics mentioned in the press release.

 

[BeenThereDoneIt]

As a businessman I can promise you that FLOPS Management didn't sign an Agremment in GOOD times becaue they didn't have as much leverage. The fact that they finally signed an Agreement during a recession with 10% unemployment tells me that the PILOTS now have very little bargaining power.

That being said...perhaps it is a good Agreement. Perhaps it isn't. Sign an Agreement that you can be proud of in 5 years.......not in 5 months. That will be up to you guys, of course. You know what you are worth. Good luck. I hope it works out.

 

[FLYLOW22]

As a businessman I can promise you that FLOPS Management didn't sign an Agremment in GOOD times becaue they didn't have as much leverage. The fact that they finally signed an Agreement during a recession with 10% unemployment tells me that the PILOTS now have very little bargaining power.

That being said...perhaps it is a good Agreement. Perhaps it isn't. Sign an Agreement that you can be proud of in 5 years.......not in 5 months. That will be up to you guys, of course. You know what you are worth. Good luck. I hope it works out.

Must not be a very profitable business if you treat your workers that way.

 

[Lear70]

OK, moderator hat on:

Watch the profanity. You can argue all you want, but please check your profanity and similar language at the door.

Moderator hat off:

Congrats to the FLOPS pilots, hope it's worth ratifying and your coworkers on the streets can get back to work soon and under a contract that they will enjoy returning under.

 

[FR8DOG777]

How about we all just keep this an internal matter and not celebrate until the cba is viewed and ratified. For all we know the negotiators got tired of dealing with the company bs back and forth and sent it to the pilots to let mgt know what we are willing to accept. That being said, any agreement reached was in the best interest of management and you can bet they spared no expense to hire the best analysts to tell them that the survivability of this war is probability zero. The pilots have faced the brunt of this uneccessary battle and paid a very heavy price. How many divorces and broken families were the result of this? How many bankruptcies and lost houses resulted from this? How many owners and pilots jobs were lost as a result of this? It is a little early to be celebrating anything. I want to send our negotiators a personal thank you for their unwavering devotion and persistence. Let's all keep this an internal matter until we know all the facts and have something solid to share.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Everybody loses...

Don't you think it is ridiculous to have the same expectations for the contract that you had during the peak of the economy to the largest financial disaster since the great depression? Pretty sad statement.

That's exactly what I said almost three years ago. 1108 was so greedy they didn't get it done when the going was good. Typical union behavior, instead of negotiating in good faith from the beginning, they ask an unreasonable amount (in this case, NJA plus) and place the company into years of turmoil, but oops, the economy tanked in the meantime. Good going 1108, how much did that greed cost the group?

If they had gotten it done before the economy tanked, the pilot group would have been much better off. Instead, it's the union way to to be greedy and hold out instead of quickly negotiating in good faith.


Typical union behavior, three years of turmoil and a contract not nearly as good as what they would have had three years ago.

 

[727C47]

congrats Gents,Good on ya !

 

[B19 Flyer]

Measure your own success by what ALPO has gotten you over the years. Then again, if you were truely a line pilot for Delta, you woulds understand that. Your continuous diatribes against the Fractional pilots and their well being tells us all you're nothing but a management troll. Go away-you're not welcome here. Or anywhere for that matter. God, I can't believe I responded to this ASS.

Call me anything you want, everything I've predicted for three years has happened... I could make the list, but proving all of you wrong again just gets repetitive.

I'm certain that the T/A is nowhere near as rosy as it could have been 3 years ago had 1108 stepped up to the plate instead of playing the typical union greed game with other peoples money..... the pilots.

 

[B19 Flyer]

How about we all just keep this an internal matter and not celebrate until the cba is viewed and ratified. For all we know the negotiators got tired of dealing with the company bs back and forth and sent it to the pilots to let mgt know what we are willing to accept. That being said, any agreement reached was in the best interest of management and you can bet they spared no expense to hire the best analysts to tell them that the survivability of this war is probability zero. The pilots have faced the brunt of this uneccessary battle and paid a very heavy price. How many divorces and broken families were the result of this? How many bankruptcies and lost houses resulted from this? How many owners and pilots jobs were lost as a result of this? It is a little early to be celebrating anything. I want to send our negotiators a personal thank you for their unwavering devotion and persistence. Let's all keep this an internal matter until we know all the facts and have something solid to share.

This post hits to the core of all the miserable things I have said about unions. How many examples of above have I used over these last three years of what bringing a union on to the property can do to a company? All of you laughed when I used them so I stopped, now it's hit to the core, and I need to ask you.. was it really worth it?

Have the non union fracs suffered the same for three years?

I think not.

 

[FR8DOG777]

I said you can rest assured the company spared no expense to hire the best business analyst money could buy, not the worst union busters (b19 and ford and harrison). Why don't you and your cronies just admit it would have been in everyones best interest to settle this fairly and years ago? You are going to be unemployed shortly, but that pales in comparison to how many excellent aviators you forced out of the business. I am not a religious man, but I take comfort in knowing there is a very warm resting place awaiting you in the next life. Cheers mate!

 

[fischman]

That's exactly what I said almost three years ago. 1108 was so greedy they didn't get it done when the going was good. Typical union behavior, instead of negotiating in good faith from the beginning, they ask an unreasonable amount (in this case, NJA plus) and place the company into years of turmoil, but oops, the economy tanked in the meantime. Good going 1108, how much did that greed cost the group?

If they had gotten it done before the economy tanked, the pilot group would have been much better off. Instead, it's the union way to to be greedy and hold out instead of quickly negotiating in good faith.


Typical union behavior, three years of turmoil and a contract not nearly as good as what they would have had three years ago.

How would someone who works at a non-union, wide-body, international carrier know what was offered/requested/denied in negotiations? Good faith is a funny term to use coming from someone who works in management.

 

[dime line]

This post hits to the core of all the miserable things I have said about unions. How many examples of above have I used over these last three years of what bringing a union on to the property can do to a company? All of you laughed when I used them so I stopped, now it's hit to the core, and I need to ask you.. was it really worth it?

Have the non union fracs suffered the same for three years?

I think not.

What a f-in moron, so I forgot the union caused all of this, there are 2 partys to this fight, The Union and The Company. Yup the union fired pilots, the union took away our 401k, the union did all of this! What an idiot. Who do you think stands to gain having a contract in place. Dam right it was worth it!
Now, the likes of you have to pay up, or quit. I wish they all would quit.

 

[shanes123]

Come on guys ...This is BT mad cause he failed at his job once again..Just like he has failed at all his previous jobs..He has failed numerous line checks when he attempted to be a line pilot..He wiggled his way into management before he was let go as a line pilot..Like so many other Flops Managers...And now he will be soon leaving FLOPS..He was a big talker about how ricci ran the place in the ground and never paid his bills and if it wasnt for SHEETfinger and Sanjbabble the company would be bankrupt..He was the first one at the door kissing Riccis *ss when he came back..And now he needs to look for employment again..Not a good time to be looking for a job....Hes old, his resume isnt to impressive..And hes scared...Maybe he should just realize hes a washed up loser and try being a walmart greeter..

 

[B19 Flyer]

How would someone who works at a non-union, wide-body, international carrier know what was offered/requested/denied in negotiations? Good faith is a funny term to use coming from someone who works in management.

Because what I do now is a positive reflection of what I learned when I was dealing with unions by my personal invovlement in offering, requesting, and denial in negotiations. Never again will I allow a union to run or destroy my career. I know the fractional business model inside and out from working in 135 and 91K and the differences between the cost structures.


It's why I won't work for a union carrier. I've been there and seen first hand the way union reps operate. I've watched the 5 minute caucus turn into hours for no reason. Unions create turmoil, and that has been what all of you have been dealing with for years, just what I said it would be.

The contract T/A should have been accomplished years ago, but the union chose to use the NJA contract (that is now causing massive turmoil at NJ) as the model. Instead of doing what was right and being realistic, they dragged their feet (as unions always do) into something that is only a portion of what they could have had if they had negotiated in good faith years ago.

 

[B19 Flyer]

What a f-in moron, so I forgot the union caused all of this, there are 2 partys to this fight, The Union and The Company. Yup the union fired pilots, the union took away our 401k, the union did all of this! What an idiot. Who do you think stands to gain having a contract in place. Dam right it was worth it!
Now, the likes of you have to pay up, or quit. I wish they all would quit.

and how much of this happened BEFORE you guys kicked the company in the shins by threatening with a union? That's part of the game. Deal with it, your union has cost you well over 3 years of turmoil.

And yes, this is about greed and unions.

A union pilot still calling me names? Wow... original.

Once again.. is it Beavis in your avatar or Butthead? I'll vote on Butthead simply based on your attitude.

 

[fischman]

Because what I do now is a positive reflection of what I learned when I was dealing with unions by my personal invovlement in offering, requesting, and denial in negotiations. Never again will I allow a union to run or destroy my career. I know the fractional business model inside and out from working in 135 and 91K and the differences between the cost structures.


It's why I won't work for a union carrier. I've been there and seen first hand the way union reps operate. I've watched the 5 minute caucus turn into hours for no reason. Unions create turmoil, and that has been what all of you have been dealing with for years, just what I said it would be.

The contract T/A should have been accomplished years ago, but the union chose to use the NJA contract (that is now causing massive turmoil at NJ) as the model. Instead of doing what was right and being realistic, they dragged their feet (as unions always do) into something that is only a portion of what they could have had if they had negotiated in good faith years ago.

Soooo, you have no idea what was requested/offered/rejected then. Maybe you should stop commenting on things you have no idea about. Makes you look like a fool.

How many wide body turboprops do you employ again?

 

[skyismyoffice]

stop being so mean...

...Maybe he should just realize hes a washed up loser and try being a walmart greeter..

Walmart greeters have much more integrity that Bob.