Flex's Response?

[CL300Pilot]

Peter......

The only other thing I heard (but is not related to NJA match negotiations) was that they are possibly looking to upgrade down through 2002 pilots, but that will mean a lot of new hires, so... Anyone else?

You say you have heard that they are looking to upgrade from the most current new hires to 2002? What could possibly be driving that type of demand? I just want to make sure I am understanding what you are hearing.

 

[Fozzy]

Okay, how about this. If this ever happens, I will start worrying about it. But until that time, I will enjoy the fruits of our labor. Enjoy a superior paycheck, QOL and benefits than any other frac out there. I won't have to wait for management to match + someone else's contract (hard work).

So Cosmo and the rest, you just keeping babbling away, and I will enjoy what my Union has gotten for me.

 

[Lear70]

Maybe you should ask some of the Pan Am pilots about that when Delta bought Pan Am. The only ones that came over were 727 and A-315 pilots. No recognition of senoirity. You buy what you negotiate to buy.

Sadly, incorrect. You need to do your homework better.

It's called a "successorship clause", and does indeed cover the labor groups IF, and that's a big IF, the company is purchased AS A WHOLE. Pan Am was not, it went bankrupt and sold off bits and pieces; THAT'S why only those pilots went over.

The big issue in every successorship clause from that point forward was that the company was FORCED to take the ENTIRE seniority list unless the company was liquidated and the assets sold by a bankruptcy court.

For instance, American would have LOVED not to have taken the TWA pilots in their purchase, but they HAD to because of the successorship language. Almost all of them are laid off, granted, but the pilots under 45 or so will eventually see AA property.

That said, I don't see NJA buying Flex or vice-versa - just no reason to. I also don't see Flex raising pay to match NJA.

On the union front, I don't like 'em. I think they're rackets, especially ALPA, lining Duane Woerth's pockets, but unfortunately they are a necessary evil in this industry. I hate to break it to you guys, but with your current management's mentality, it's going to take a union to FORCE change, they're not going to GIVE you jack sh*t.

 

[el raton]

Sadly, incorrect. You need to do your homework better.

It's called a "successorship clause", and does indeed cover the labor groups IF, and that's a big IF, the company is purchased AS A WHOLE. Pan Am was not, it went bankrupt and sold off bits and pieces; THAT'S why only those pilots went over.

The big issue in every successorship clause from that point forward was that the company was FORCED to take the ENTIRE seniority list unless the company was liquidated and the assets sold by a bankruptcy court.

For instance, American would have LOVED not to have taken the TWA pilots in their purchase, but they HAD to because of the successorship language. Almost all of them are laid off, granted, but the pilots under 45 or so will eventually see AA property.

That said, I don't see NJA buying Flex or vice-versa - just no reason to. I also don't see Flex raising pay to match NJA.

On the union front, I don't like 'em. I think they're rackets, especially ALPA, lining Duane Woerth's pockets, but unfortunately they are a necessary evil in this industry. I hate to break it to you guys, but with your current management's mentality, it's going to take a union to FORCE change, they're not going to GIVE you jack sh*t.

well said and amen

 

[cosmotheassman]

Well, we will know in just a week or so what the company is offering us so lets see what happens. If it's not good, then everyone bails right??

 

[Cpt Splash]

All this conversation is interesting and some of the theories are way out there. Being a person who has just recently left Flexjet let me offer my two cents.

There are those at Flex who want this to be the last place that they have to work and don't want to worry about leaving for another job, but at the same time they want the schedule and the salary that is becoming the industry standard for the fractionals thanks to Netjets. From my observations working for Bombardier has been an intersting experience. They are a very conservative company, not willing really to take any chances, like some of the other companies out there. They hide behind the product which is a superior one in terms of speed and performance. They keep their crews to a high standard because of the consequences that come if they are not working up to par. And the current management that is in place keeps the crew salaries low because they can. The pilot group is not organized as well as it should be.

Many will say that the way to get organization is union and union only, but look at CS. They were able to respond to NJ's new contract without a union. What about the pilots getting together in their own meetings and coming with an organized agenda to take to management? If you get enough of the pilots together, management can't fire all of you. The majority of the Flex crews live in Dallas so, getting together should not really be much of a problem.

The fractionals should be what the legacy airlines always wanted to be. Companies that set the standard in which everybody else tries to emulate. Companies that provide schedules, salaries, and benefits that forces the rest of the industry to come up to that bar. Flexjet, Netjets, Citation Shares, and Flight Options are all in a position in which they can change the traditional 135 operator, by the providing a service that the 135 operator has to match or close its doors. They should be companies in which pilots are knocking down the door trying to get into.

Netjets union (the recent MEC) has definitely been a positive voice and tool in changing the fractionals for the better. CS has responding well to it, lets see if the other two can set up to the challenge. I really hope that this meeting that is suppose to happen this week is going in that direction, because there are a lot of good pilots that work for Flexjet who see this as the last straw.

 

[Pervis]

One wonders why CS stepped up so quickly, and so comparable to the NJA salary structure. Management can be swayed to alter salaries with a far smaller group without a union. With over 2000 pilots though, the increase NJA pilots achieved looks bad on the books with an increase in salaries to the tune of hundreds of millions.

Who knows, maybe this will make an integration far easier to swallow for both management and pilots. Maybe the latest rumors of an NJA/CS merger are more accurate than a NJA/FLOPS merger. Makes more sense to acquire a newer company with a manufacturer that has already sold over 250 jets to NJA, with a number of smaller jets NJA so desperately needs.

 

[Peter_Griffin]

Yup -- it's what I've heard...

You say you have heard that they are looking to upgrade from the most current new hires to 2002? What could possibly be driving that type of demand? I just want to make sure I am understanding what you are hearing.

This is what I have heard. Well, let me be more precise -- they are starting capt evals on everyone through remaining 2000 to 2002 hiring dates with the intention of doing a load of upgrades soon. I just checked the latest seniority list on BB and that would mean they are talking about roughly 47 or so (quite a few have left of that 47 so...maybe 35?) upgrades within the next 6 mos. I think this might be for a couple reasons, but mostly to fill crews if we need to x number more pilots to switch to the 15 days.

I don't think demand (i.e. sales) is the driving force. It's really not a lot of upgrades if you think about the scheduling demands of switching and some of the attrition losses we have had from captains over the last 6 months...

But also I think they are letting this rumor our as a way of pacifying the troops. Cuz then even new hires start seeing upgrades as closer than previously thought, even though reality may or may not be any different.

 

[Guitar Guy]

Many will say that the way to get organization is union and union only, but look at CS. They were able to respond to NJ's new contract without a union.

Do you think CS management would have given out those salary increases without the union at NetJets?

 

[Peter_Griffin]

Do you think CS management would have given out those salary increases without the union at NetJets?

Excellent point -- let us not all forget that none of this would even be discussed right now if it weren't for all the fighting NJA and their union have been doing on behalf of all pilots.

At Flex we have been trying to get agreement on QOL issues for years that now are just started to be considered by management in light of the NJA contract. If Montreal approved 7/7 a long time ago and we have been clamoring for it, why not until now. (which by the way we are still not gonna get...) If they are going to be so quick to approve a reduced schedule and we've been begging for at least 3 years that I know of, why all the sudden are we getting listened to -- cuz of the union...

But we can't leave it all up to NJA and hope our other companies follow suit. The time to unionize Flex, Flops and CS is NOW!!!