Flexjet Recalls Two Flight Attendants, Janitor

[glasspilot]

Why not refuse the FO days? Wouldn't that be better?

 

[Pacific]

Layoffs are one thing, but what about this CAFO crap Flex is getting away with? I'm not one so I can't confirm this, but I heard that if a CAFO is paired with a true FO but they don't actually fly (airline last day for ex.) they only get FO pay even though they're the Captain of record. I think it's a b/s idea to begin with but if this is true then I have lost all respect for the waterview, not that I had much to begin with these days. Supposedly there's one person who refuses the CA trips out of protest, if everyone here had those kind of ballz this would be a better place.

I also heard TC tow the company line that not working overtime days won't do anything to help get people back. Thanks, but I think I'll still turn them down. Perhaps if we all turned down OT and shady CAFO deals we WOULD get some of our comrades back.

Absolutely agree on the CAFO thing. It's a bad program. No Captain pay for a .299 check either. Only Captains do that check, so shouldn't it pay Captain pay??

 

[GSXR600]

It probably doesnt matter what he says about overtime anyway. I would bet there are more than enough people begging[/COLOR] for as much as the company will give them.

True statement!

 

[unclepetey]

The ironic thing is that they did ask two FAs to come back as contractors. My buddy went to Waterview to get a new ID a few weeks ago.

I don't know about the janitor.

 

[jonjuan]

Total BS. No way fr would have furloughed a janitor. He has too much respect for them.

 

[Dooker]

Has anybody actually ever bothered to pull Bombardier's SEC filing or whatever its Canadian equivalent is and looked to see what they actually pay our management? I'd do it myself, but I'm just too lazy.

 

[EatSleepFly]

Has anybody actually ever bothered to pull Bombardier's SEC filing or whatever its Canadian equivalent is and looked to see what they actually pay our management? I'd do it myself, but I'm just too lazy.

They don't have to report what they pay Flexjet's management.

 

[Dooker]

Actually, found an article in the Dallas Morning News from back when they signed Reid in '08 and he agreed to forfeit his $750,000 salary. With performance stips and Bombardier stock options and everything else thrown in it could easily be worth double that, I'd imagine.

 

[Dooker]

Actually, found an article in the Dallas Morning News from back when they signed Reid in '08 and he agreed to forfeit his $750,000 salary. With performance stips and Bombardier stock options and everything else thrown in it could easily be worth double that, I'd imagine.

Which seems kind of high when you consider that Gary Kelly at Southwest got paid $1.2 million this past year ... but then what do I know?

 

[realityman]

Same crap is happening at NJA. During the busy days they are just outsourcing the flying to EJM or other charters. They can do this up to 44 days per year!!!!! Makes it much more difficult for any of us to ever get recalled. Just like scope is the real threat to the major airlines, outsourcing flying via charter is the huge threat to fractional pilots.

RP, I am truly sorry to know that you're furloughed from NJ's. Been down that road myself. I know it doesn't help, but I do have some understanding of it. And I'm currently actively involved with ways to help the furloughed folks, limited though they may be. Truly, I would not want to trade places with you right now.

That being said, you're only telling part of the story. True, they can charter when they need to, but you left out the part about them having to recall pilots if they do charter.

Furthermore, EJM is no threat to us. Yes, they can charter out 44 days a year without penalty. But that's how it's ALWAYS been here. We have ALWAYS needed to charter to EJM, and other operators, during our busy times. Yes, that means when we had EVERYONE working here. we still chartered. The business model simply won't work without being able to do some chartering. At least, not the way our contracts were set up with the owners (guaranteed response times and all). Prior to 2009 after the furloughs were announced, no one seemed to have a problem with us using charter during the busy days.

But the real question is, if there are 44 days in a year when we need some extra lift, does it make financial sense for the company to keep people on staff who they really only need for those 44 days, but otherwise don't need for the other 321 days of the year (paying full salary, benefits, training costs, etc....), or is it more sensible to charter out on those days?

And while 44 days sounds like a lot, keep in mind that if they need to charter just ONE flight on any given day, then that day counts towards the 44, and brings us closer to triggering a required recall. Should we not reach the 44 days (or 11 in any quarter), then I guess things are still slow and the extra pilots just aren't needed yet. It's incredibly sad for those on furlough, but it's the reality.

However, the fact remains that even fully staffed, we needed to be able to charter. It's been done since day one of this company, and companies such as EJM have proved no threat to us because of it.

Plain and simple, you will be back when we sell more aircraft. There's no other way around it. Has nothing to do with the charter days. If we have 16 owners on one plane, and they all want to fly at the same time, we will have to charter. The only way to bring you back is if some of those owners buy ANOTHER SHARE in another plane.

Good luck to you.

 

[DirtyBeech]

Layoffs are one thing, but what about this CAFO crap Flex is getting away with? I'm not one so I can't confirm this, but I heard that if a CAFO is paired with a true FO but they don't actually fly (airline last day for ex.) they only get FO pay even though they're the Captain of record. I think it's a b/s idea to begin with but if this is true then I have lost all respect for the waterview, not that I had much to begin with these days. Supposedly there's one person who refuses the CA trips out of protest, if everyone here had those kind of ballz this would be a better place.

I also heard TC tow the company line that not working overtime days won't do anything to help get people back. Thanks, but I think I'll still turn them down. Perhaps if we all turned down OT and shady CAFO deals we WOULD get some of our comrades back.

Too many fiscal morons living the dream on payments for that to happen.

It would be interesting to see if we simply create more CAFO's rather than permanent upgrades when/if we start bringing people back. It sounds like the kind of cheese ball scheme that can only come from the puzzle palace.

 

[unclepetey]

Another day of huge charters. Sucks big time.

 

[OHGOON]

RP, I am truly sorry to know that you're furloughed from NJ's. Been down that road myself. I know it doesn't help, but I do have some understanding of it. And I'm currently actively involved with ways to help the furloughed folks, limited though they may be. Truly, I would not want to trade places with you right now.

That being said, you're only telling part of the story. True, they can charter when they need to, but you left out the part about them having to recall pilots if they do charter.

Furthermore, EJM is no threat to us. Yes, they can charter out 44 days a year without penalty. But that's how it's ALWAYS been here. We have ALWAYS needed to charter to EJM, and other operators, during our busy times. Yes, that means when we had EVERYONE working here. we still chartered. The business model simply won't work without being able to do some chartering. At least, not the way our contracts were set up with the owners (guaranteed response times and all). Prior to 2009 after the furloughs were announced, no one seemed to have a problem with us using charter during the busy days.

But the real question is, if there are 44 days in a year when we need some extra lift, does it make financial sense for the company to keep people on staff who they really only need for those 44 days, but otherwise don't need for the other 321 days of the year (paying full salary, benefits, training costs, etc....), or is it more sensible to charter out on those days?

And while 44 days sounds like a lot, keep in mind that if they need to charter just ONE flight on any given day, then that day counts towards the 44, and brings us closer to triggering a required recall. Should we not reach the 44 days (or 11 in any quarter), then I guess things are still slow and the extra pilots just aren't needed yet. It's incredibly sad for those on furlough, but it's the reality.

However, the fact remains that even fully staffed, we needed to be able to charter. It's been done since day one of this company, and companies such as EJM have proved no threat to us because of it.

Plain and simple, you will be back when we sell more aircraft. There's no other way around it. Has nothing to do with the charter days. If we have 16 owners on one plane, and they all want to fly at the same time, we will have to charter. The only way to bring you back is if some of those owners buy ANOTHER SHARE in another plane.

Good luck to you.

There's one in every crowd....how comforting that you have been "down that road" yourself....doesn't stop you however from being management's apologist de rigeur.

Outsourcing is always a threat, no matter how much it may help the bottom line! Charter is a form of outsourcing. Of course during the go go times it was used primarily for overflow, but now the geniuses have realized it looks better on their quarterly spread sheets to permanently obfuscate the true cost of doing business. So now it has become something much more than just a contractually dictated backstop for busy days.

Frac flying is a new industry that before this current economic crisis had never experienced "hard times". American management style is to immediately engage in knee jerk "cost cutting" to protect themselves from criticism (and potential loss of bonus) . It's only later that it becomes obvious that much of who or what was cut was actually needed. The status quo however dictates that face must be saved at all cost; consequently the initial mistakes will never be admitted openly and the company limps along with half measures; never mind the obvious safety implications!

Charter is cheaper for many reasons. Mostly for the same reasons that has the Majors struggling and the Regionals growing.....until it's all pushed too far and we find ourselves at night over KBUF again.....followed by another session of official government hand-wringing, I'm sure.

 

[realityman]

There's one in every crowd....how comforting that you have been "down that road" yourself....doesn't stop you however from being management's apologist de rigeur.

Outsourcing is always a threat, no matter how much it may help the bottom line! Charter is a form of outsourcing. Of course during the go go times it was used primarily for overflow, but now the geniuses have realized it looks better on their quarterly spread sheets to permanently obfuscate the true cost of doing business. So now it has become something much more than just a contractually dictated backstop for busy days.

Frac flying is a new industry that before this current economic crisis had never experienced "hard times". American management style is to immediately engage in knee jerk "cost cutting" to protect themselves from criticism (and potential loss of bonus) . It's only later that it becomes obvious that much of who or what was cut was actually needed. The status quo however dictates that face must be saved at all cost; consequently the initial mistakes will never be admitted openly and the company limps along with half measures; never mind the obvious safety implications!

Charter is cheaper for many reasons. Mostly for the same reasons that has the Majors struggling and the Regionals growing.....until it's all pushed too far and we find ourselves at night over KBUF again.....followed by another session of official government hand-wringing, I'm sure.

LOL! It's always fun being called a "management apologist" by someone who obviously has no clue what they are talking about. If you don't like the reality of a situation, fine. But to try to deny it is flat out stupid.

First, let me just say, I KNOW it's not comforting to present the fact that I've been down the furlough road myself. I didn't intend it to 'comfort' anyone. In fact, I believe I said that very thing in my post. I only meant that it gives me an understanding of what the furloughees are going through. If you think it doesn't, that's your problem, not mine.

Second, I can only comment about the NJA situation, so nothing I say applies to the other fracs. So let me repeat, charter is no threat to us. We are NOT an airline. An airline can simply contract out to the regionals, have them paint mainline names and colors on their planes, and off you go. You can't do that with our owners. Our owners have purchased actual shares in a NETJETS plane, not EJM or some other charter outfit. Oh, I know it states in their contracts that they have to accept a charter from time to time, but if all that EVER shows up to fly them is charter planes, they'll probably start asking themselves why they should bother having a share in an NJ's plane when they could just as easily charter themselves. It'd probably be a lot cheaper for them to do it. So no, I don't believe charter is a threat to us. The same can be said for the Marquis owners who bought cards and were expecting to be flown by the Netjet's fleet.

Furthermore, NJ's doesn't really do very well financially when they have to broker a charter, even if it's EJM. Pushing business outside our own fleet costs us money.

In addition, specifically addressing EJM, the planes that EJM operates are managed aircraft. Yes, the owners of those planes expect EJM to charter them out to help offset some of the costs of owning those planes, but I doubt they'd be terribly happy to see EJM putting 1200 hours a year on their planes while we outsource our owners (fractional) to those planes, and additionally making those planes unavailable the majority of the time for the actual owner.

And finally, the more we charter, the more pilots we will HAVE to recall! If we start doing lots of charter, it shows a definite need for more pilots, and the CBA addresses that very clearly. Any more than 11 days in a quarter where we charter, and pilots come back.

Let me repeat, we are not an airline! Our clients are not airline passengers. The expectations, not to mention the financial arrangements and contracts, are entirely different from the airlines. While not perfect, we have some very good scope language in our contract. If you're a NJ's pilot, or furloughee, may I suggest you read those sections and educate yourself a little.

I wonder why you make the comments you do anyway. Have you seen a large uptick in the amount of charter flights we've contracted? Because of the CBA, our union keeps pretty close tabs on that stuff. So far, it hasn't triggered recalls, so I guess we aren't doing all that much chartering. Ah well, some folks try not to let facts get in the way of a good conspiracy theory. Also, if you're a NJ's pilot (not furloughed), you can see the flight calendar on crewops. The green days indicate days where we can be expected to cover all the trips with our own fleet. The yellow indicates the possibility of selloffs, and the red indicates selloffs (although at what rate, I'm not sure). You'll notice that pretty much ALL the days are green. NO SELLOFFS PLANNED!

Sorry to burst your bubble of negativism.

 

[OHGOON]

Realityman,

Sooooo sorry to have impinged on your god given right to hijack any thread and make it exclusively about an internal NJA issue.

Right you are. You were just busy putting a NJ furloughee in his/her place about a finer point of your CBA and did not mean any of your comments in a wider context for the rest of us bottom feeders in the frac industry. How could I have missed that, must be the effects of that negativity bubble.....

Let me try to help. My post was meant not just as a direct commentary on all things NJA.

Last I checked, this thread was begun as a very funny take on the all too common dysfunctions of most management in the fractional industry. Several comments were made about the surreptitious effect that outside Charter can have when management is not constrained by a CBA such as yours. My comments about charter being the "new normal" in the industry (NJA notwithstanding) stand and I don't really care how many "green" days are visible on your crackberry.

You point out, correctly that charter is not very good for the bottom line at NJA for the long term. However if I may be so bold, if it is no threat then why is it addressed in your CBA at all? Afterall we all know that decisions in the aviation industry are always based on the long term health of the company and never on short term interests of the management team and what is best for their bonus structure. Right?

Reread your initial post and see if you don't detect the same nauseatingly condescending tone associated with so many of the intelligence insulting memos many of us are blessed with from the puzzle palace.