Flexjet Recalls Two Flight Attendants, Janitor

[DirtyBeech]

Layoffs are one thing, but what about this CAFO crap Flex is getting away with? I'm not one so I can't confirm this, but I heard that if a CAFO is paired with a true FO but they don't actually fly (airline last day for ex.) they only get FO pay even though they're the Captain of record. I think it's a b/s idea to begin with but if this is true then I have lost all respect for the waterview, not that I had much to begin with these days. Supposedly there's one person who refuses the CA trips out of protest, if everyone here had those kind of ballz this would be a better place.

I also heard TC tow the company line that not working overtime days won't do anything to help get people back. Thanks, but I think I'll still turn them down. Perhaps if we all turned down OT and shady CAFO deals we WOULD get some of our comrades back.

Too many fiscal morons living the dream on payments for that to happen.

It would be interesting to see if we simply create more CAFO's rather than permanent upgrades when/if we start bringing people back. It sounds like the kind of cheese ball scheme that can only come from the puzzle palace.

 

[unclepetey]

Another day of huge charters. Sucks big time.

 

[OHGOON]

RP, I am truly sorry to know that you're furloughed from NJ's. Been down that road myself. I know it doesn't help, but I do have some understanding of it. And I'm currently actively involved with ways to help the furloughed folks, limited though they may be. Truly, I would not want to trade places with you right now.

That being said, you're only telling part of the story. True, they can charter when they need to, but you left out the part about them having to recall pilots if they do charter.

Furthermore, EJM is no threat to us. Yes, they can charter out 44 days a year without penalty. But that's how it's ALWAYS been here. We have ALWAYS needed to charter to EJM, and other operators, during our busy times. Yes, that means when we had EVERYONE working here. we still chartered. The business model simply won't work without being able to do some chartering. At least, not the way our contracts were set up with the owners (guaranteed response times and all). Prior to 2009 after the furloughs were announced, no one seemed to have a problem with us using charter during the busy days.

But the real question is, if there are 44 days in a year when we need some extra lift, does it make financial sense for the company to keep people on staff who they really only need for those 44 days, but otherwise don't need for the other 321 days of the year (paying full salary, benefits, training costs, etc....), or is it more sensible to charter out on those days?

And while 44 days sounds like a lot, keep in mind that if they need to charter just ONE flight on any given day, then that day counts towards the 44, and brings us closer to triggering a required recall. Should we not reach the 44 days (or 11 in any quarter), then I guess things are still slow and the extra pilots just aren't needed yet. It's incredibly sad for those on furlough, but it's the reality.

However, the fact remains that even fully staffed, we needed to be able to charter. It's been done since day one of this company, and companies such as EJM have proved no threat to us because of it.

Plain and simple, you will be back when we sell more aircraft. There's no other way around it. Has nothing to do with the charter days. If we have 16 owners on one plane, and they all want to fly at the same time, we will have to charter. The only way to bring you back is if some of those owners buy ANOTHER SHARE in another plane.

Good luck to you.

There's one in every crowd....how comforting that you have been "down that road" yourself....doesn't stop you however from being management's apologist de rigeur.

Outsourcing is always a threat, no matter how much it may help the bottom line! Charter is a form of outsourcing. Of course during the go go times it was used primarily for overflow, but now the geniuses have realized it looks better on their quarterly spread sheets to permanently obfuscate the true cost of doing business. So now it has become something much more than just a contractually dictated backstop for busy days.

Frac flying is a new industry that before this current economic crisis had never experienced "hard times". American management style is to immediately engage in knee jerk "cost cutting" to protect themselves from criticism (and potential loss of bonus) . It's only later that it becomes obvious that much of who or what was cut was actually needed. The status quo however dictates that face must be saved at all cost; consequently the initial mistakes will never be admitted openly and the company limps along with half measures; never mind the obvious safety implications!

Charter is cheaper for many reasons. Mostly for the same reasons that has the Majors struggling and the Regionals growing.....until it's all pushed too far and we find ourselves at night over KBUF again.....followed by another session of official government hand-wringing, I'm sure.

 

[realityman]

There's one in every crowd....how comforting that you have been "down that road" yourself....doesn't stop you however from being management's apologist de rigeur.

Outsourcing is always a threat, no matter how much it may help the bottom line! Charter is a form of outsourcing. Of course during the go go times it was used primarily for overflow, but now the geniuses have realized it looks better on their quarterly spread sheets to permanently obfuscate the true cost of doing business. So now it has become something much more than just a contractually dictated backstop for busy days.

Frac flying is a new industry that before this current economic crisis had never experienced "hard times". American management style is to immediately engage in knee jerk "cost cutting" to protect themselves from criticism (and potential loss of bonus) . It's only later that it becomes obvious that much of who or what was cut was actually needed. The status quo however dictates that face must be saved at all cost; consequently the initial mistakes will never be admitted openly and the company limps along with half measures; never mind the obvious safety implications!

Charter is cheaper for many reasons. Mostly for the same reasons that has the Majors struggling and the Regionals growing.....until it's all pushed too far and we find ourselves at night over KBUF again.....followed by another session of official government hand-wringing, I'm sure.

LOL! It's always fun being called a "management apologist" by someone who obviously has no clue what they are talking about. If you don't like the reality of a situation, fine. But to try to deny it is flat out stupid.

First, let me just say, I KNOW it's not comforting to present the fact that I've been down the furlough road myself. I didn't intend it to 'comfort' anyone. In fact, I believe I said that very thing in my post. I only meant that it gives me an understanding of what the furloughees are going through. If you think it doesn't, that's your problem, not mine.

Second, I can only comment about the NJA situation, so nothing I say applies to the other fracs. So let me repeat, charter is no threat to us. We are NOT an airline. An airline can simply contract out to the regionals, have them paint mainline names and colors on their planes, and off you go. You can't do that with our owners. Our owners have purchased actual shares in a NETJETS plane, not EJM or some other charter outfit. Oh, I know it states in their contracts that they have to accept a charter from time to time, but if all that EVER shows up to fly them is charter planes, they'll probably start asking themselves why they should bother having a share in an NJ's plane when they could just as easily charter themselves. It'd probably be a lot cheaper for them to do it. So no, I don't believe charter is a threat to us. The same can be said for the Marquis owners who bought cards and were expecting to be flown by the Netjet's fleet.

Furthermore, NJ's doesn't really do very well financially when they have to broker a charter, even if it's EJM. Pushing business outside our own fleet costs us money.

In addition, specifically addressing EJM, the planes that EJM operates are managed aircraft. Yes, the owners of those planes expect EJM to charter them out to help offset some of the costs of owning those planes, but I doubt they'd be terribly happy to see EJM putting 1200 hours a year on their planes while we outsource our owners (fractional) to those planes, and additionally making those planes unavailable the majority of the time for the actual owner.

And finally, the more we charter, the more pilots we will HAVE to recall! If we start doing lots of charter, it shows a definite need for more pilots, and the CBA addresses that very clearly. Any more than 11 days in a quarter where we charter, and pilots come back.

Let me repeat, we are not an airline! Our clients are not airline passengers. The expectations, not to mention the financial arrangements and contracts, are entirely different from the airlines. While not perfect, we have some very good scope language in our contract. If you're a NJ's pilot, or furloughee, may I suggest you read those sections and educate yourself a little.

I wonder why you make the comments you do anyway. Have you seen a large uptick in the amount of charter flights we've contracted? Because of the CBA, our union keeps pretty close tabs on that stuff. So far, it hasn't triggered recalls, so I guess we aren't doing all that much chartering. Ah well, some folks try not to let facts get in the way of a good conspiracy theory. Also, if you're a NJ's pilot (not furloughed), you can see the flight calendar on crewops. The green days indicate days where we can be expected to cover all the trips with our own fleet. The yellow indicates the possibility of selloffs, and the red indicates selloffs (although at what rate, I'm not sure). You'll notice that pretty much ALL the days are green. NO SELLOFFS PLANNED!

Sorry to burst your bubble of negativism.

 

[OHGOON]

Realityman,

Sooooo sorry to have impinged on your god given right to hijack any thread and make it exclusively about an internal NJA issue.

Right you are. You were just busy putting a NJ furloughee in his/her place about a finer point of your CBA and did not mean any of your comments in a wider context for the rest of us bottom feeders in the frac industry. How could I have missed that, must be the effects of that negativity bubble.....

Let me try to help. My post was meant not just as a direct commentary on all things NJA.

Last I checked, this thread was begun as a very funny take on the all too common dysfunctions of most management in the fractional industry. Several comments were made about the surreptitious effect that outside Charter can have when management is not constrained by a CBA such as yours. My comments about charter being the "new normal" in the industry (NJA notwithstanding) stand and I don't really care how many "green" days are visible on your crackberry.

You point out, correctly that charter is not very good for the bottom line at NJA for the long term. However if I may be so bold, if it is no threat then why is it addressed in your CBA at all? Afterall we all know that decisions in the aviation industry are always based on the long term health of the company and never on short term interests of the management team and what is best for their bonus structure. Right?

Reread your initial post and see if you don't detect the same nauseatingly condescending tone associated with so many of the intelligence insulting memos many of us are blessed with from the puzzle palace.

 

[realityman]

Realityman,

Sooooo sorry to have impinged on your god given right to hijack any thread and make it exclusively about an internal NJA issue.

Right you are. You were just busy putting a NJ furloughee in his/her place about a finer point of your CBA and did not mean any of your comments in a wider context for the rest of us bottom feeders in the frac industry. How could I have missed that, must be the effects of that negativity bubble.....

Let me try to help. My post was meant not just as a direct commentary on all things NJA.

Last I checked, this thread was begun as a very funny take on the all too common dysfunctions of most management in the fractional industry. Several comments were made about the surreptitious effect that outside Charter can have when management is not constrained by a CBA such as yours. My comments about charter being the "new normal" in the industry (NJA notwithstanding) stand and I don't really care how many "green" days are visible on your crackberry.

You point out, correctly that charter is not very good for the bottom line at NJA for the long term. However if I may be so bold, if it is no threat then why is it addressed in your CBA at all? Afterall we all know that decisions in the aviation industry are always based on the long term health of the company and never on short term interests of the management team and what is best for their bonus structure. Right?

Reread your initial post and see if you don't detect the same nauseatingly condescending tone associated with so many of the intelligence insulting memos many of us are blessed with from the puzzle palace.

Aw, Goon, you are a funny funny guy. First off, you've never seen a thread veer off course from the original subject? Hmmm. What message boards have you been reading?

Also, I noticed that in your first response to me, you took the time to quote my entire response to RP, which addressed the situation at Netjets specifically. So why would I assume you were addressing the ENTIRE FRAC INDUSTRY when you appeared to be responding to my answer that centered only around the situation at NJA?

And yes, charter protections ARE addressed in our CBA. It's exactly because they are addressed that I don't consider charter to be a threat to our business here at NJA. Perhaps whoever drafted that section DID consider charter to be a threat (maybe rightfully so), but because it's covered, it's not a problem for NJA.

Maybe you are the one who should go back and reread my posts. And if you're going to respond to my specific posts, which only discuss the NJ's side of things, then try to keep your reponses to me on that subject. If you'd like to make a point about the entire frac industry, then don't bother quoting posts that don't address that.

I responded to RP who, I believe, mistakenly wants to blame charter and EJM for a loss, or potential loss, of jobs at NJA. I wasn't trying to address the entire frac industry. Although I'd be interested for you to point out to me who has lost jobs in the frac industry to charter operators. Maybe some of the Flex guys could chime in because I've heard some general grumblings from them about it, but no specifics.

And maybe reread your posts and try to tone down the nauseatingly 'holier than thou' attitude. If you'd like to have an inteligent discussion without the name calling and innuendo, I'd be happy to continue this conversation, otherwise go back and bury your head in the sand about how things REALLY work and complain how bad it is for us. Your comment about the green days on crewops (not the BB) is a perfect example of that. Your sarcastic tone about something that clearly shows we're not utilizing charter much at all is a great example of someone who just doesn't want to face up to the fact that charter isn't a factor for RP's return.

 

[OHGOON]

Realityman,

Quite correct, I did quote your entire post but I responded to your tone of condescension rather than to your specific, NJ only, CBA talking points. My mistake for assuming you had any interest in participating in the broader discussion of industry developments/trends beyond just lecturing one of your own.

If your posts are meant to be taken solely as NJ specific posts then why do you insert them in a thread clearly not just about NJ?

Last but not least, since when has there been a contract that actually completely eliminated any threat no matter how well written or intentioned. At most it can postpone the day of reckoning. Just ask the average UAW worker...

Outsourcing flying jobs is a huge threat, no matter if it's to a Regional or Charter. At the core, it's about others doing your job for less, plain and simple. If your contract protects you for now, that is a good thing, but don't forget, it will become amendable at some point in the future. If you have trouble understanding this reality, you are not as intelligent as you think you are.

Lastly about the name calling: Seems to me you dish at least as well as you have taken.....

 

[realityman]

Realityman,

Quite correct, I did quote your entire post but I responded to your tone of condescension rather than to your specific, NJ only, CBA talking points. My mistake for assuming you had any interest in participating in the broader discussion of industry developments/trends beyond just lecturing one of your own.

If your posts are meant to be taken solely as NJ specific posts then why do you insert them in a thread clearly not just about NJ?

Last but not least, since when has there been a contract that actually completely eliminated any threat no matter how well written or intentioned. At most it can postpone the day of reckoning. Just ask the average UAW worker...

Outsourcing flying jobs is a huge threat, no matter if it's to a Regional or Charter. At the core, it's about others doing your job for less, plain and simple. If your contract protects you for now, that is a good thing, but don't forget, it will become amendable at some point in the future. If you have trouble understanding this reality, you are not as intelligent as you think you are.

Lastly about the name calling: Seems to me you dish at least as well as you have taken.....

Goon, you answered your own question about why I inserted comments specifically about NJA into a thread not specifically centered on that. Because "one of our own" made a comment specifically about something at NJA, and I felt he was incorrect in his assumptions. So technically, I'm not the one who brought specifics about NJA into the thread. I just responded to it.

However, if you're so interested in my thoughts on the broader industry repercussions, then here they are. Charter is no threat to the other fracs either.

Why?

Because as you said, it comes down to management being able to do things cheaply. Okay fine. But remember one important point (and this excludes NJ's), with the exception of Flight Options, all the other frac players, from big to small, are non-union. Why is this important? Because none of them, NOT ONE, has a legally binding contract. If the management of any of those fracs decides they need to operate cheaper, they simply will. What, in reality, is to stop them from walking in one day and saying, "Hey everyone! Good news!! Starting right now, you're all taking a 25% pay cut, and we're eliminating 401K matching as well as requiring all of you to contribute more towards your own health insurance premiums. Oh, and you're all going to be working an extra two days every month. Have a nice day.". In fact, the mighty NJ's management did EXACTLY THAT with the non-union employees at our company.

So, charter is no threat to our industry because they don't need to farm out work to the charter operaters to go cheap. The fact that they haven't done it yet doesn't mean it wouldn't be easy to do. It would be.

Oh, and how long do you think any of the other fracs would stay in business if they sold shares (or even jet cards) in their aircraft, then constantly showed up with chartered planes? I guess if they wanted to simply shut down their frac ops they could go that route, but then why bother selling the shares in the first place?

One more time, we are not an airline! Our work can't just be moved to charter or smaller operators. Not as long as the clients actually own shares of planes in the frac's fleets.

By the way, I am in NO WAY trying to turn this into another "you should have a union" thread. So before everyone jumps all over me about my non-union comments, they were only said to make a point about being able to reduce costs. I don't really care if you have a union or not. And if you're happy without one, fantastic!!

One more thing Goon, our contract becoming amenable doesn't mean it isn't in effect anymore. The CBA conditions continue uninterrupted until such time as we vote on, and ratify, a new contract. In other words, it doesn't 'expire', it just means the negotiating period starts then. If it takes us 20 years to negotiate the next contract, the terms of this contract remain in effect for the duration. All the protections remain in place.

As for scope being ironclad, I agree. It's not completely ironclad. But I think it's as good, or better, than any industry contract out there. Quite frankly, if BK wanted to start a completely separate frac company, call it Worldfrac, and start selling shares in that company while not selling anymore at NJA, and selling current NJA clients shares in the new company when their contracts expire, I suppose there's nothing we could do about it. I agree that it's impossible to eliminate every possible contingency in scope language. But it's better than no protection at all.

 

[can99]

yawwwwning badly... not back to the recalled flight attendant and janitor please

 

[GSXR600]

I think the janitor quit, word is that he didn't show up to Indoc.............great news ladies and gents!!! Flex is really stepping up!

 

[OHGOON]

Realityman,

Because as you said, it comes down to management being able to do things cheaply. Okay fine. But remember one important point (and this excludes NJ's), with the exception of Flight Options, all the other frac players, from big to small, are non-union. Why is this important? Because none of them, NOT ONE, has a legally binding contract. If the management of any of those fracs decides they need to operate cheaper, they simply will. What, in reality, is to stop them from walking in one day and saying, "Hey everyone! Good news!! Starting right now, you're all taking a 25% pay cut, and we're eliminating 401K matching as well as requiring all of you to contribute more towards your own health insurance premiums. Oh, and you're all going to be working an extra two days every month. Have a nice day.". In fact, the mighty NJ's management did EXACTLY THAT with the non-union employees at our company.

How exactly does this prove that charter is no threat to the rest of us non-union fracs? Seems to make my point instead...

One more time, we are not an airline! Our work can't just be moved to charter or smaller operators. Not as long as the clients actually own shares of planes in the frac's fleets.

Thanks for pointing out the painfully obvious, of course "we are not an airline!" I was using this as an analogy....you know like, "Climb like a raped ape". Most of us know that no simian needs actually feel threatened after hearing this statement. I was just trying to point out that historically aviation management has had no trouble outsourcing product if it looks cheaper on the spread sheet, no matter the loss of perceived quality or safety. BTW, most of those flying today have no idea that the flight they just bought as a mainline flight in many cases is really being flown by someone else. What's to stop a frac to just mail the charter companies some matching ties or ask them to paint their jets in the same color scheme?

Not to burst your bubble, if I may borrow that phrase, but most of what happened in the airlines, happened while the union was there front and center with what they thought were good and solid CBAs at the time too. (Oh, I am aware it was not your union.....just in case ) What makes you so sure that unions in the frac world have or will be able to anticipate all possibilities going forward??

As for scope being ironclad, I agree. It's not completely ironclad. But I think it's as good, or better, than any industry contract out there. Quite frankly, if BK wanted to start a completely separate frac company, call it Worldfrac, and start selling shares in that company while not selling anymore at NJA, and selling current NJA clients shares in the new company when their contracts expire, I suppose there's nothing we could do about it. I agree that it's impossible to eliminate every possible contingency in scope language. But it's better than no protection at all.

I agree with what you say about your contract, it's a thing of beauty and a testament to what can be achieved if pilots stop acting like children in a sandbox but instead come together and stick together for the betterment of the whole! That being said, you quite correctly point out that even that is not a sure thing! Exactly my point and why I tangled with you in the first place.

Management will always look for ways to save a buck (that's their job). Unfortunately labor is always the first place to look for savings because we are the one cog in the machine that actually keeps producing while its supplies and maintenance are slowly throttled!

 

[realityman]

Goon, you say I make your point for me. I just don't see how. When I say that if management wants to operate cheaper, they simply will, what I meant was, for the fracs that don't have a contract (again, not meaning to imply anyone needs or should have a union), if the company wants to operate cheaper, all they have to do is reduce wages and benefits, and maybe institute new schedules where everyone works more. Without a contract, what's to stop them from doing that? As I said, our own management team did exactly that with the non-union employees here. No need to farm out, say, the dispatcher's work to a subcontracter who is cheaper when they were able to simply adjust the compensation to where they thought it should be. So why would any management team presiding over a company without a contract with the employees, go to all the trouble of shifting work to the charter operators? They don't need to! Therefore, the charter operators aren't a threat.

I can't speak for the other frac operators, but all of NJ's planes have identical interiors (with one or two exceptions). Regardless of what uniforms the crews are wearing, or what color the outside of the plane is painted, I'm pretty sure the owners can tell a chartered plane from one in our program. Especially if a Falcon 50 shows up to pick them up instead of the Citation X they bought a share in. I just don't believe the owners would stay with any fractional very long that was ALWAYS putting them on a charter.

While I haven't heard any firm statistics, I didn't hear much grumbling from the Flops guys that Flops was farming work out to the charters while they were negotiating their contract. It would seem that if there was any situation where management had an opportunity to prove a point and farm work out to the charter folks, that would've been it. Yes, the company did downsize, but not to the charters.

 

[OHGOON]

Realityman,

I see your point about just cutting wages, and that's that, in the non union world. Things are not that simple though because that move would anger the remaining pilots to the point that they would unionize which is what happened at NJ. Too much downside with wielding that Ax, rather they have discovered the scalpel which is using charter as a permanent component to cover peak day demand. It may be more expensive for the individual flights but the long term employee cost can be controlled in their minds. (You know one column looks better while the other is just de-emphasized in the quarterly report as an anomaly..)

It's really a matter of degrees, while it's unlikely that a frac can survive with no planes of their own, it is possible to get customers to accept that they fly on "others" some of the time as long as they see that "their" plane exists somewhere. Over time you can increase that percentage without too much resistance from the owners. It is happening all the time and it is becoming the "new Normal". Customers accept it for the most part and the few that don't are just coddled by a no charter clause. The end result is that furloughs are extended longer than necessary and that is a threat to anyone who finds him/herself in that unfortunate position.

 

[ArtVandalay]

Officially the goon/realityman thread. wtf are these guys even talking about?? The thread is too long for me to waste time on, can someone summarize real quick for me?

 

[EatSleepFly]

Officially the goon/realityman thread. wtf are these guys even talking about?? The thread is too long for me to waste time on, can someone summarize real quick for me?

Considering that every thread on here ends up that way at some point, I think it's a pretty safe bet that they're talking about NJA.

 

[RP170]

It's really a matter of degrees, while it's unlikely that a frac can survive with no planes of their own, it is possible to get customers to accept that they fly on "others" some of the time as long as they see that "their" plane exists somewhere. Over time you can increase that percentage without too much resistance from the owners. It is happening all the time and it is becoming the "new Normal". Customers accept it for the most part and the few that don't are just coddled by a no charter clause. The end result is that furloughs are extended longer than necessary and that is a threat to anyone who finds him/herself in that unfortunate position.

Right on OHGOON. You get it. There are too many guys at NJA with the rose colored, kool-aid drinking glasses on that think everything in the CBA is just wonderful and fine and dandy. Easy for them to say when they still have a JOB! By they way, realityman, this is my second furlough in 7 years. The first time I was unemployed for a year. This time will most likely be much much worse.

I liked the part where you talked about how NJA could just send contractors gold ties and paint the aircraft like NJA, etc. Funny you mentioned that because I saw a CE-680 a few months back operated by EJM painted just like an EJA aircraft. This may be part of the future plans so the owners won't know the difference.

We just received another company update today stating how great EJM is doing and that their business is way up. They are growing while NJA is shrinking. They are a real threat. Some guys just don't want to open their eyes or take off their rose colored glasses and admit it.

I think we all know how this will end up in the end. The will continue to get rid of aircraft at NJA while growing EJM. It's eerily similar to the Majors vs. Regionals scope issues at the airlines. And yes, I understand that NJA is not an airline!!! It's another way for management to cut operating costs and they can reduce the amount of union workers (higher pay) at the same time.

I'd be scared to death if I were a current NJA pilot in regards to the shift from fractional to charter flying within the Berkshire-Hathaway "family." Wake up guys before it's too late!

 

[Dooker]

I had the opportunity to fly with one of Flexjet's senior Kool-Aid drinkers a couple of rotations ago. Anyway, we got on the subject of charter, and I told him what I'd heard about the apparent hiring boom at some of the charter outfits 'Flex uses.

Me: "You know, there's not a thing that stops them from farming everything out to charter if they want."

Him: "I'm sure they'd never do that."

Me: "Yeah, you're right. I'm sure they have our best interests at heart."

It got pretty quiet after that.

 

[notapilot]

The contracts limit charter to 5%. They could charter everything out, but we would be out of business very fast.

 

[Hung Start]

Post containing creative swearing will be deleted and you can be suspended or banned from FI.. please.. keep it G rated.. thanks

I couldn't agree more.

I find the the use of the "C" word, with so many sitting, uncrewed aircraft, quite offensive.

Hung

 

[hammer2]

I couldn't agree more.

I find the the use of the "C" word, with so many sitting, uncrewed aircraft, quite offensive.

Hung

Just for that expect no less than a 3 hour repo leg today, followed by a 45 minute live leg.