Flexjet Recalls Two Flight Attendants, Janitor

[netjetwife]

It appears that FW is posting on a need to know basis. Her target audience knows enough about the situation to understand the gist of her post and can always pm her for additional info. The rest of us don't need to know the details.

I just note that she is reaching out to others in her group in an attempt to share/gather information and I support her efforts. I would think that any who value camaraderie and unity in their group would as well. From my understanding of their situation, the Flex pilotgroup doesn't have their own message board or active liaisons that keep them fully informed on company matters. (Flex folks please correct this if I'm wrong). So if their posts sometimes sound as though they're talking in code ... well that makes perfect sense even if others don't know what the heck they're saying....

 

[notapilot]

It appears that FW is posting on a need to know basis. Her target audience knows enough about the situation to understand the gist of her post and can always pm her for additional info. The rest of us don't need to know the details.

I just note that she is reaching out to others in her group in an attempt to share/gather information and I support her efforts. I would think that any who value camaraderie and unity in their group would as well. From my understanding of their situation, the Flex pilotgroup doesn't have their own message board or active liaisons that keep them fully informed on company matters. (Flex folks please correct this if I'm wrong). So if their posts sometimes sound as though they're talking in code ... well that makes perfect sense even if others don't know what the heck they're saying....

First of all you have no idea what she is talking about either so don't speak for her. Believe me when I say that I am in "the know" more than she is and what she appears to say is not true. Your belief is that since we do not have a private crew only website we should accept coded vague language from a non employee about our company. Sounds about right from you. By the way, how's it going with your union fellows who have been locked out of their message board? PDA.

 

[notapilot]

Falcon

I also would like to see OT and CAFO stopped from whichever group is involved.

 

[DirtyBeech]

All I know is that half a dozen or so captains have recently unemployed themselves.

 

[Boxer]

All I know is that half a dozen or so captains have recently unemployed themselves.

Say what?

 

[flex*wife]

Notaapilot,

This is gonna be long I apologize in advance but I truly want to answer your questions and spark thoughtful debate.

Netjetwife is correct: I am purposefully trying to be vague because I am not trying to get people to talk out of school or air a bunch of dirty laundry all over the internet. I am also trying to be respectful of the sources of information I have been given lest I be guilt-ridden with having few innocent people caught in the cross hairs of an ugly situation.

Fact is plain and simple that as a group, Flex pilots need to protect scope, lock in work rules and provide the group with a fair and equitable resolution system for dealing with disciplinary and other matters. In my mind the past year with furloughs, CAFOs, some interesting changes in the manuals and other miscellaneous matters I would think this would be obvious to the simplest of you.

You asked me to be specific so I will try to better explain my concerns regarding the BJS LXJ situation. I consider myself pretty well read on the TAG situation but as a non pilot I am the first to admit I don’t necessarily understand the way daily operations may or may not play into this. But how can you say with a straight face that BJS is a completely separate entity from the foreign owned entity of LXJ? There may be separate floors and door locks, but it is definitely a combined enterprise at the same convenient address.. Everything from human resource & administrative issues, to scheduling, long range planning, owner & in flight services, ground ops, dispatch, maintenance decisions and issues, hiring decisions (well maybe not lately), firing decisions, training etc it’s pretty clear there are some gray lines. Up until a little while ago your paychecks even came from BJS for jake’s sake. And if I’m not mistaken I’ve been told some of the language that’s been added to the manuals over the past year give the implication that BJS has more and more control over “in flight” issues because they have more flexibility in the way things get handled from a regulation perspective. But that’s way out of my league as I barely understand V1 rotate.

Dirty Beech speaks of a few captains who have helped themselves out of a job recently. Rumor has it at least half of them were 135 issues that these guys were told plain and simple would have been a different story if they were 91 trips. And what about that guy who is now out a license let alone a job because he misunderstood the ability for ASAP to protect him on a 135 trip.

And why does no one want to investigate the dozens upon dozens of bombardier aircraft registered to Waterview, including a sweet fair share of globals. Now I’m not sure if that’s BJS or LXJ but no one finds that curious? Unless I am mistaken I thought the business scope of both parties limited them to operations and fractional sales not “brokership” or management so what gives? We all know there are a few planes (Houston, STL and TN might be some) that are being quietly managed on the side using LXJ resources but not LXJ pilots. And yet we have 85 on the street. That’s the connection my friend. My suspicion is that LXJ, Bombardier or BJS (let’s face it you are really an employee of all three) resources are used to generate business income but not protect pilot jobs. Might be legal, might be good business etc… but if true it’s kinda slimy.

Also why does the list of available typed pilots both bombardier and the training center give out to private whole owners in need of temporary services not include the 85 at the top of it’s lists? A good friend of my husband’s (not one of the 85) is on the list and makes a decent living doing only Bombardier and CAE Simuflite referrals and my understanding he’s one of many.

This get long winded and I’d be happy to expound on more if you need me to, but isn’t this enough yet? I am only looking out for my family. If you can prove to me I have no reason to worry I will be grateful to you believe me. I WANT to be wrong.

We are quite happy with my husband’s pay, bonus, vacation etc… and absolutely do not feel a need for overtime to supplement the income. This IS NOT about money. Pushing for a union is the only way I see of forcing the company to uphold certain implied contractual obligations that are worthless right now as you are all at will employees. I actually think for the most part most of the higher ups are decent guys but make no mistake they will protect themselves long before they will protect you. You need to fix that.

 

[netjetwife]

First of all you have no idea what she is talking about either so don't speak for her. I wasn't. I was just commenting on her posting style and my "code" remark was suggesting that those of us outside her circle don't need the details. Believe me when I say that I am in "the know" more than she is and what she appears to say is not true. I don't know the situation so I'm not in a position to judge credibility on the subject. That's for the Flex pilots to decide as they're the ones she addressed. Your belief is that since we do not have a private crew only website we should accept coded vague language from a non employee about our company. FW has the right to post here and was discussing, with others, a topic that interests them/her. They were following the rules and doing just fine understanding each other. Sounds about right from you. Yes I do support the right of members of a community to hold online conversations and build camaraderie. By the way, how's it going with your union fellows who have been locked out of their message board? PDA.

Thanks for asking. The NJASAP furloughed pilots who now have their own section of the board continue to receive Union communications, including the weekly emailed newsletter. They report that never have they seen a Union be so responsive to a furlough even establishing a special committee dedicated to helping furloughed pilots. They are very appreciative that their fellow pilots participated in voluntary measures that kept them employed about an extra year. NJASAP refunded their dues and the pilot-group made generou$ donations that provided a nice Christmas and/or emergency funding for furloughed families. (That was very impressive! Kudos to all involved!) With NJASAP coordination the pilot-group has also given assistance (money, hotel points/miles, Atlantic bucks, etc) to individual furloughed pilots/families as the need arose.

 

[netjetwife]

.... but isn’t this enough yet? ... Pushing for a union is the only way I see of forcing the company to uphold certain implied contractual obligations that are worthless right now as you are all at will employees. I actually think for the most part most of the higher ups are decent guys but make no mistake they will protect themselves long before they will protect you. You need to fix that.

FW, I thought there were enough reasons for your group to organize even before I realized how convoluted/confusing things are at Flex...now... You're absolutely right. The reality is no one will consider the needs and interests of the pilot-group more than the pilots themselves. Good Luck! Seriously. Lacking the protections afforded by a contract, the Flex pilots and their families are leaving an awful lot to chance....
Regards,
NJW

 

[notapilot]

Fact is plain and simple that as a group, Flex pilots need to protect scope, lock in work rules and provide the group with a fair and equitable resolution system for dealing with disciplinary and other matters. In my mind the past year with furloughs, CAFOs.
I agree with you on these points.
Up until a little while ago your paychecks even came from BJS for jake’s sake.
I have never received a check from BJS.
And if I’m not mistaken I’ve been told some of the language that’s been added to the manuals over the past year give the implication that BJS has more and more control over “in flight” issues because they have more flexibility in the way things get handled from a regulation perspective. But that’s way out of my league as I barely understand V1 rotate.
I guess that's way out of my league as well because I have no idea what you are referring to.
Dirty Beech speaks of a few captains who have helped themselves out of a job recently. Rumor has it at least half of them were 135 issues that these guys were told plain and simple would have been a different story if they were 91 trips. And what about that guy who is now out a license let alone a job because he misunderstood the ability for ASAP to protect him on a 135 trip.
As an agent if a pilot breaks a part 135 regualtion on a part 135 trip they will be held accountable according to the part they are operating under. Same as at Netjets or anywhere else for that matter. As for the pilot that lost his license I have no idea what you are talking about and what does his lack of understanding ASAP have to do with any of this?
And why does no one want to investigate the dozens upon dozens of bombardier aircraft registered to Waterview, including a sweet fair share of globals. Now I’m not sure if that’s BJS or LXJ but no one finds that curious? Unless I am mistaken I thought the business scope of both parties limited them to operations and fractional sales not “brokership” or management so what gives? We all know there are a few planes (Houston, STL and TN might be some) that are being quietly managed on the side using LXJ resources but not LXJ pilots. And yet we have 85 on the street. That’s the connection my friend. My suspicion is that LXJ, Bombardier or BJS (let’s face it you are really an employee of all three) resources are used to generate business income but not protect pilot jobs. Might be legal, might be good business etc… but if true it’s kinda slimy.
This conspiracy theory is a little crazy. No one finds it curious because it only exists in your mind. If I understand this correctly you believe that there are 20+ LXJ planes being operated outside of Flexjet. They must be controlling all of this from the secret bunker under the Waterview. Also no one is keeping our whole owned aircraft operations quiet. In fact, we advertise it. LXJ pilots are operating those planes. I will explain who your husband works for, he is an employee of Flexjet which is a subsidiary of Bombardier. He acts as an agent for Jet Solutions, LLC.
Also why does the list of available typed pilots both bombardier and the training center give out to private whole owners in need of temporary services not include the 85 at the top of it’s lists? A good friend of my husband’s (not one of the 85) is on the list and makes a decent living doing only Bombardier and CAE Simuflite referrals and my understanding he’s one of many.
I do know a few of the 85 that do do these trips. How they crew those trips I do not know. It would be great if it would work as you describe.
This get long winded and I’d be happy to expound on more if you need me to, but isn’t this enough yet? I am only looking out for my family. If you can prove to me I have no reason to worry I will be grateful to you believe me. I WANT to be wrong.
I think you might have said enough and I would suggest you probably not say more for your sake. Your allegations are false, both companys meet the requirements of the law and have been closely scrutinized by independent auditors and the FAA. I wouldn't be as concerned about the relationship, but more concerned about the libel claims you make. If I was a lawyer for Jet Solutions or Bombardier I would pursue this libelous matter directly with you as you make some very serious accusations.

Good luck. I think that we are on the same page about where we need to be, but we do not agree on how to get there.

 

[notapilot]

FW, I thought there were enough reasons for your group to organize even before I realized how convoluted/confusing things are at Flex...now... You're absolutely right.
Maybe I am just a genius, but it really isn't confusing. What am I missing here?
The reality is no one will consider the needs and interests of the pilot-group more than the pilots themselves.
Finally you said something that makes sense. Congratulations!

Now back to your hole. : )

 

[CL300Pilot]

You bring up some interesting theories, however, I will only attempt to shed light on one, the BJS/LXJ similarities.

Why are our manuals so similar and why does it appear the BJS holds more weight? Because it does. Does it not make sense to anyone that if you have 2 separate and totally independent companies operating the same equipment using the same pilots as "Agents" to a 135 operator to be reading out of the same book? The reason for this is simple even to the most simple minded such as myself. If they read the same, then you are not flying either 91K or 135 trips different, minus small things like raft rules, but we won't go there. This should actually make our jobs and does in my opinion, much easier because I don't have to remember the differences of 2 separate manuals. For this, I absolutely applaud Flex.

Flex has done a very, very good job of making sure that BJS and LXJ are completely separate. Them being in the same building as us is a convenience thing. Per the regs, the dispatchers must be trained under our 135 side so that they are also able to act as agents for BJS with inflight needs. that is why when we were booming, we would call to open up and a dispatcher was unable to do so due to them not being trained under BJS. The one thing that Flex/BJS did was to have an FAA swat team come in and does so I believe on a regular basis to ensure that we have true separation of the 2 entities. The issue with TAG was that it was obvious to even the simple minded such as myself that there was no separation of operational control. This is why we must on every 135 flight state, "This flight is being operated under the control of Jet Solutions LLC." Is BJS and LXJ intertwined? Absolutely. Are they separate entities? Absolutely. Does the FAA approve of how the 2 entities work together? ABSOLUTELY! The last statement is all that matters to me and most of the rest of the work force.

I hope this helps clear up the BJS/LXJ issue.

One last item. My checks all say "Bombardier Aerospace Corporation" on them.

You asked me to be specific so I will try to better explain my concerns regarding the BJS LXJ situation. I consider myself pretty well read on the TAG situation but as a non pilot I am the first to admit I don’t necessarily understand the way daily operations may or may not play into this. But how can you say with a straight face that BJS is a completely separate entity from the foreign owned entity of LXJ? There may be separate floors and door locks, but it is definitely a combined enterprise at the same convenient address.. Everything from human resource & administrative issues, to scheduling, long range planning, owner & in flight services, ground ops, dispatch, maintenance decisions and issues, hiring decisions (well maybe not lately), firing decisions, training etc it’s pretty clear there are some gray lines. Up until a little while ago your paychecks even came from BJS for jake’s sake. And if I’m not mistaken I’ve been told some of the language that’s been added to the manuals over the past year give the implication that BJS has more and more control over “in flight” issues because they have more flexibility in the way things get handled from a regulation perspective. But that’s way out of my league as I barely understand V1 rotate.

 

[flex*wife]

Notapilot,

I'm not making libelous claims. I am asking questions and asking someone to help explain the more confusing parts of how stuff gets done.

I'm also simply trying to point out that y'all NEED to step up protecting yourselves. The economy and recent evidential business practices should show that.

As for the paychecks, it's been a while I guess but I would suggest you go back and look at some of the older stubs. Maybe this changed becuase of TAG. I guess I don't see that as a huge deal or problematic as much as interresting...

As for the capt I was referring to I only have third hand info as the person who told me about it heard about it in TEB but supposedly this guy filed an ASAP for flying above a limitation but was canned becuase BJS doesn't participate in the program or something like that. So since the ASAP wasn't in play the FAA could violate him and did, with a loss of license is the rumor. There are a few interesting termination stories out there. I don't know the all the facts I admit but I am asking questions and opening up discussion.

As for the temp list why aren't the 85 at the top of that list? Why aren't their resumes being farmed out to every new whole jet owner bombardier sells to? I think there's a bunch they could do to help these 85 out that would cost very little in time and resources but if this board is to be believed they've done nothing and don't even return phone calls.

I'm simply trying (I suppose in vain) to encourage and rally you guys to protect yourselves. Why are some so threatened by that? Notapilot or CL300 if you can honestly tell me that what I bring up isn't a smidge of concern you've answered my questions. But so far I don't understand it.

 

[flex*wife]

Good luck. I think that we are on the same page about where we need to be, but we do not agree on how to get there.

Okay help me out then. I think you make some great points in most of your posts. All I care about is the end result and my ego is not invested in how we get there (or even how we GOT here).

How do you propose we protect flex pilots without a union? Is there some other way to get a legally binding contract regarding scope, work rules etc... without going that route?

Since the economy downturn I think the money issue became a moot point for everyone. Truth is Flex pays pretty darn fairly in comparison to what's out there and it maybe took a few foreclosures on the street and the threat of bigger furloughs for most to realize that. I think 99% of all flex guys would gladly agree to a freeze on current payscales for the year of they were given certain other iron clad protections.

The last big union push kinda worked the opposite. People were so focused on $$ versus work rules, when Flex stepped up to the plate, the mutiny quelled.

Flex manangement (or maybe it's Montreal I dunno) are genuises when it comes to the chess game and are always 2 steps ahead. Props to them truly because it's masterful. But isn't it time for y'all to step up your game and anticipate a little too?

Like right now, they are talking out of both sides of their mouths about the furloughs and the possibility of more to come. It's contrived gameplay to make you feel protected and cared for by the big arms of management - they are really there for you after all.

As for some of the firings, it makes sense to let a few go so that when you're the one who was kept it makes you feel grateful and protected. I'm sure some needed to go but I'm also pretty sure some were rooks in the big game.

And the CAFO situation is being spun into the perception that they are giving some guys who would have been cut back all together the opportunity to still occasionally get to work for a higher paycheck when needed. Bull hockey. CAFOs benefit the company only. It's actually putting these guys in a pretty precarious situation as they are occasionally taking on a heap of responisbility for a company that doesn't completly support them with the resources to be in that groove. Being a captain and taking on all the responsibilities that entails is not a temp job.

Blah blah blah -- it's all back and forth arguing at this point so in all seriousness I ask:

So notapilot how do we get there without a union?

 

[CL300Pilot]

This is not an attack so please don't take it that way. Your information on the captain, if he was in the 300, is inaccurate. Regarding ASAP, it does not matter if you are 91, 91k or 135, ASAP will cover the pilot. Unless, you knowingly and intentionally do something wrong or violate the other 4 instances in which reports are null and void.

I think we would all be hard pressed to find one pilot with the company who does not like some of the things that are happening within our company. However, I do know that things could be a whole lot worse than they are. Flex is and always has been a very cautious company with typically well thought out plans to keep the company sustainable, even in times like this. Would I like to see things better? You bet. I do however remain cautiously optimistic regarding our futures in the industry. After all, it is aviation.

Regarding being threatened, that I am not. I realize that my job could end tomorrow. I also know that for me to lose my job, it is going to take ME doing something wrong or stupid. A union in which you are pushing, is not going to protect me, your husband or anyone else for that matter with regards to some of the recent terminations. In fact, a union should not protect some of the stupidity that has taken place that could have very well cost ALL of us our lively hood. Look at NJA, and no this is not an attack on them either. It was unable to protect their pilots from this economic disaster, which is what caused our original 85 to be on the street. While I am sure that they tried, in the end, they did what had to be done.

Every person on this board wants things to be back the way they were a couple of years ago, but that just is not going to happen overnight, if ever. What we do have as Flex pilots and spouses is a strong company that has just as good an ability, if not more, to survive this storm and come out better and stronger on the other side. This is what I stay optimistic about.

As for the capt I was referring to I only have third hand info as the person who told me about it heard about it in TEB but supposedly this guy filed an ASAP for flying above a limitation but was canned becuase BJS doesn't participate in the program or something like that. So since the ASAP wasn't in play the FAA could violate him and did, with a loss of license is the rumor. There are a few interesting termination stories out there. I don't know the all the facts I admit but I am asking questions and opening up discussion.

I'm simply trying (I suppose in vain) to encourage and rally you guys to protect yourselves. Why are some so threatened by that? Notapilot or CL300 if you can honestly tell me that what I bring up isn't a smidge of concern you've answered my questions. But so far I don't understand it.

 

[John MClain]

Flexwife,


When you have soooooo many 300 and 604 captains and f/o's begging for overtime, why do we need anything else. Anything the 300 group wants they get for 2 reasons. First, they are the biggest. Second, it is the chief pilots fleet there fore he does what they ask for.

All we as pilots can hope and pray for is the FR leaves before he either parts us out completely or bankrupts us.

Dude, are you F#@$%%%g serious. What FLEXJET do you work for? Put down the crack pipe and step away from the keyboard.

 

[John MClain]

Notapilot,


As for the capt I was referring to I only have third hand info as the person who told me about it heard about it in TEB

I don't know the all the facts I admit.

But so far I don't understand it.

Now there's a shocker. To bad we cant use the "Liar Liar pants on fire" defense.

 

[netjetwife]

...I'm not making libelous claims. I am asking questions and asking someone to help explain the more confusing parts of how stuff gets done.....

It's too bad your good manners didn't rub off on Notpolite..I mean Notapilot.. Talk about damned if you do, damned if you don't. First he complained about you talking in "code" when you were trying to have a discreet conversation with others. Then when you fully explained your concerns at his urging he responds with intimidation and complains that you said too much....

FW, it was clear that you were speculating so it wasn't libel. Your comments were labeled in advance as a personal suspicion and you had already conceded that the arrangement was legal just distasteful in your opinion. The courts would be flooded if they hauled in all the citizens who complain about corporate America and business practices that, while legal, seem wrong to many of us.

It begs the question though: how would a Flex pilot fare if he wound up in a sticky situation with someone from management misconstruing something he said and wanting to retaliate harshly? The Flex pilots are at will employees without legally binding contractual rights, representation, or due process that must be followed when there's a dispute. Do they all think that nothing can ever go wrong for them? Don't they realize that a person can have good intentions that go awry...like you wanting to spark a philosophical discussion... ...only to end up getting accused of libel?

 

[netjetwife]

....I also know that for me to lose my job, it is going to take ME doing something wrong or stupid. Life being what it is: Everyone makes a mistake now and then. Misunderstandings occur. Bad things happen to good people thru no fault of their own. A union in which you are pushing, is not going to protect me, your husband or anyone else for that matter with regards to some of the recent terminations. It does make sure that a preordained process is followed, that pilots are all treated fairly, the same, etc Look at NJA, and no this is not an attack on them either. It was unable to protect their pilots from this economic disaster, ... The difference is in the contract rules that had to be followed regarding furlough notice and pay, the uninterrupted flow of information they get from their leaders, as well as legally binding rules for recall. NJASAP was also able to work w/NJ to keep the pilots employed about a year longer. I think many furloughed pilots (regardless where they came from) would prefer an arrangement like that.

Every person on this board wants things to be back the way they were a couple of years ago, ....

It appears to me that FW is looking forward, not backwards. There's a valid concern that Flex could unilaterally change your work rules, schedule, pay, etc. The CAFO situation doesn't sound like something that pilots would vote for given the chance. You support management being cautious so shouldn't the pilots be, as well? It's only prudent to want a contract in place that spells out what can and can't been done to the pilot-group.

 

[smartelephant]

It appears to me that FW is looking forward, not backwards. There's a valid concern that Flex could unilaterally change your work rules, schedule, pay, etc. The CAFO situation doesn't sound like something that pilots would vote for given the chance. You support management being cautious so shouldn't the pilots be, as well? It's only prudent to want a contract in place that spells out what can and can't been done to the pilot-group.

Ms. NJW, with all due respect, your union drum beating is getting a little old. Yes, you're right.... the current Flex pilot's would greatly benefit from a union. However, with the current age demographic of the group, it's never going to happen. There are too many old cogers that just want to work a few more years, make as much money as possible, and ride off into the sunset. They have no interest in making Flexjet a better place to work. Or for that matter, a better place for the younger guys to work in the future. People have been telling you this for years, but you still beat a way on that tired old drum. Flexjet is a place of individuals for the most part. The word "team" is spelled "I." And frankly in this market, I'd be playing the CYA card as well. Union's don't protect your job when you make bad decisions. And as far as the union controlling how furlough situatiuon's are played out, Flex management made a business decision last year and I think they handled it pretty fairly. And yes, I was one of the ones affected by that decision. The only thing I wish is that there was some sort of on going communication from the chief's office on the state of the company and the direction it's headed in. But I hardly think that is enough of a sticking point for the group to form a union. Like someone else said, they couldn't care less about us now, or if we ever come back in the future. to quote one if the most anoying phrases as voted on last year: "it is what it is."
Good Day.

 

[netjetwife]

SE, it's not a union drum; it's a belief in fairness and wanting to see all of the frac pilots/families attaining the protections and professional compensation they deserve. If you guys know another way to achieve a legally binding contract I'd love to hear about it. If there is a better way to raise the bar for the industry, give pilots a voice in their career, and frac families peace of mind, I will gladly support it.

As for the demographics at Flex: Yes, I've read the theories and anecdotal posts; but that isn't an actual accounting. Furthermore, situations change and so do attitudes. New voices and points get raised. Working under a contract is now a common occurrence so it isn't far-fetched to think that Flex pilots would want that professional staple for themselves, especially in these uncertain times that are ushering in new programs like the CAFO one.

Best of luck to you and yours. I hope things work out for you. NJW