Flexjet Recalls Two Flight Attendants, Janitor

[notapilot]

It's too bad your good manners didn't rub off on Notpolite..I mean Notapilot.. Talk about damned if you do, damned if you don't. First he complained about you talking in "code" when you were trying to have a discreet conversation with others. Then when you fully explained your concerns at his urging he responds with intimidation and complains that you said too much....
I only provide the rope. I don't ask that anyone hang by it.
Too easy.

FW, it was clear that you were speculating so it wasn't libel.
I would look up the legal definition of libel. If you want I can post it. Her message went beyond speculation. Would anyone pursue it in court, probably not. Could her statements be grounds for a lawyer to pursue her identity from FI, probably so.

.....

 

[notapilot]

SE, it's not a union drum; it's a belief in fairness and wanting to see all of the frac pilots/families attaining the protections and professional compensation they deserve. If you guys know another way to achieve a legally binding contract I'd love to hear about it. If there is a better way to raise the bar for the industry, give pilots a voice in their career, and frac families peace of mind, I will gladly support it.

I don't know what abuses went on at Netjets before being saved by the union.
Do I feel like I am treated unfairly? No
Do I feel unfairly compensated? No
Your annoying banter about raising the bar points to your own greedy motives. We are not abused puppies that need to be saved. This is the demeaning tone all your messages extrude.

 

[netjetwife]

Last I checked your name wasn't Smartelephant... And I actually think that Notpolite is more fitting, but nonetheless....

The subject is pay and working rules for pilots (hint, hint) and many are still far below the industry standard for both. There are others who are satisfied, but they don't have a contract and are subject to the whims of management. Thus, they lack a valuable commodity -- peace of mind.

Abused puppies...:erm: Your disparaging words, not mine. We're obviously not thinking of the same hardworking professional aviators.

Greedy... also not applicable. But it does bring up the subject of attitudes, in this instance self-absorption. We aren't talking about your compensation or your treatment. FW and I were both talking about issues facing frac pilots and their families--a group that doesn't include you.

 

[netjetwife]

For those who are curious....the applicable parts of a longer version.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/libel

Libel 1) n. to publish in print ... an untruth about another which will do harm to that person or his/her reputation, by tending to bring the target into ridicule, hatred, scorn or contempt of others. None of those reactions were posted on the thread which represented a group more inclined to react thus. It is a tort (civil wrong) making the person or entity open to a lawsuit for damages by the person who can prove the statement about him/her was a lie. Publication .. must be a statement which claims to be fact, and is not clearly identified as an opinion. .... The pertinent discussion was clearly labeled as a suspicion beforehand. Proof of malice, There was none, only concern for those affected by the business arrangement. however, does allow a party defamed to sue for "general damages" for damage to reputation, while an inadvertent libel limits the damages to actual harm (such as loss of business) called "special damages." A huuuge stretch that no one would seriously claim. Most states provide for a party defamed by a periodical to demand a published retraction. If the correction is made, then there is no right to file a lawsuit. FW did that several times: by direct implication that her opinion could be proven to be wrong; when she denied she was making claims; stated that she was, instead, asking questions; volunteered that part of her info was third hand; and admitted that she may not have all the facts.

I suggest that those who chastise posters for making vague, discreet statements then urge them to provide details, all the while planning to trap them, are guilty of having a hidden agenda. Luckily, those who carry "ropes" are easy to spot. FI members who wish to levy a fine for such disingenuous behavior can do so by placing "trappers" on their ignore list.

Note to self: don't look for Notpolite ...the name is notapilot...

 

[B19 Flyer]

Last I checked your name wasn't Smartelephant... And I actually think that Notpolite is more fitting, but nonetheless....

The subject is pay and working rules for pilots (hint, hint) and many are still far below the industry standard for both. There are others who are satisfied, but they don't have a contract and are subject to the whims of management. Thus, they lack a valuable commodity -- peace of mind.

Abused puppies...:erm: Your disparaging words, not mine. We're obviously not thinking of the same hardworking professional aviators.

Greedy... also not applicable. But it does bring up the subject of attitudes, in this instance self-absorption. We aren't talking about your compensation or your treatment. FW and I were both talking about issues facing frac pilots and their families--a group that doesn't include you.

You need to remember something about NJW... you see, in her opinion, rank and file workers could have been pilots if they wanted to be and because they made other career choices they will always be subject to the whims of any union that may threaten their careers.

She only cares about pilots... she has made that very clear in her previous posts.

She doesn't care about the financial health of the company or any other individual as long as pilots are well compensated.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Would the real NJW please stand up...

Last I checked your name wasn't Smartelephant... And I actually think that Notpolite is more fitting, but nonetheless....

The subject is pay and working rules for pilots (hint, hint) and many are still far below the industry standard for both. There are others who are satisfied, but they don't have a contract and are subject to the whims of management. Thus, they lack a valuable commodity -- peace of mind.

Abused puppies...:erm: Your disparaging words, not mine. We're obviously not thinking of the same hardworking professional aviators.

Greedy... also not applicable. But it does bring up the subject of attitudes, in this instance self-absorption. We aren't talking about your compensation or your treatment. FW and I were both talking about issues facing frac pilots and their families--a group that doesn't include you.

Would the real NJW please stand up...


http://forums.flightinfo.com/showpost.php?p=1527412&postcount=101

 

[flex*wife]

I would look up the legal definition of libel. If you want I can post it. Her message went beyond speculation. Would anyone pursue it in court, probably not. Could her statements be grounds for a lawyer to pursue her identity from FI, probably so......

Wow you're really just a big bully aren't you? I guess you're trying to scare me and in the process scare anybody who might try to effect change at Flex. Typical.

The problem for you is that my ego's not involved where as yours clearly is. First off whatever opInions I stated were done with an intent to better the company not harm it. I never said Flex did anything illegal (which be the only basis for a libelous claim) I clearly stated they skirted those issues which basically just means above the law but fuzzy to some people.

Memership to this board comes with an implied anonimity. Do you really think
these guys are so stupid that they would risk there business model over some petty pissing contest you want to start? You're dreaming.

So stop trying to scare people from discussing issues you are nervous about.

Why is that by the way? Why so uninterested in open and honest discussion.
I love the fact you bully instead of counterpoint...

Now I've got kids to get up for the bus which is far more important than
wasting my time on a lost cause.

 

[dime line]

Would the real NJW please stand up...


http://forums.flightinfo.com/showpost.php?p=1527412&postcount=101

So in your wacked out world, what was wrong with what NJW said. I agree 100% with what she said. I bet you, outside of FI, agree with her.

 

[Imissmypilot]

I have never received a check from BJS.

One last item. My checks all say "Bombardier Aerospace Corporation" on them.

This got me curious so I went and looked back. CL300 pilot is correct, but so is FW. Currently they do have “Bombardier Aerospace Corp” on them, but if you go back to the December 2007 they did say BJS. That qualifies to me as a quite a bit than the “just a little while ago” statement FW made, but that’s semantics. She was right. In Flex’s defense I would imagine it was the legal separation of the two parties that caused the switch but I’m just guessing and I’m not “in the know”.

As for the recent firing she referred to it sounds to me like she is perhaps confused and mixing up the details of a few different incidents but that’s what the rumor mill will get you. Parts of the story are true for one case, true for a few others. Not every one resulted in the axe. Misrepresentation yes but enough facts are correct it should be a cause for concern for any one of us. Mistakes happen to everyone. I sure don’t want to be made the example. But again in Flex’s defense regarding the guys who were let go this wasn’t their first carpet dance.

 

[B19 Flyer]

So in your wacked out world, what was wrong with what NJW said. I agree 100% with what she said. I bet you, outside of FI, agree with her.

Your career can go from the pilot's seat to a desk in the blink of an eye.

When you are forced to sit behind that desk and no longer can used those skills that you worked so hard for you suddenly realize how much risk YOU take at the hand of a "union business" created to fund their own.

Hopefully you will never have that happen, but if it does you will realize that the financial strength and stability of the company will mean a lot more than your individual paycheck.

And there is nothing that NJW could ever write that I would agree with. She's an expert housewife and might cook a mean macaroni and cheese, but until she actually works in the industry her opinions have no basis for fact.

She doesn't even qualify as a rank and file employee she so freely disrespects.

Right now, there are a lot of pilots and laid off personnel at both FLOPS and NJ that understand exactly what I'm saying.

Unions haven't protected those pilots and didn't give a crap about any pilot losing his medical and now flying a desk for a career.

 

[doh]

This is not an attack so please don't take it that way. Your information on the captain, if he was in the 300, is inaccurate. Regarding ASAP, it does not matter if you are 91, 91k or 135, ASAP will cover the pilot. Unless, you knowingly and intentionally do something wrong or violate the other 4 instances in which reports are null and void.

I think we would all be hard pressed to find one pilot with the company who does not like some of the things that are happening within our company. However, I do know that things could be a whole lot worse than they are. Flex is and always has been a very cautious company with typically well thought out plans to keep the company sustainable, even in times like this. Would I like to see things better? You bet. I do however remain cautiously optimistic regarding our futures in the industry. After all, it is aviation.

Regarding being threatened, that I am not. I realize that my job could end tomorrow. I also know that for me to lose my job, it is going to take ME doing something wrong or stupid. A union in which you are pushing, is not going to protect me, your husband or anyone else for that matter with regards to some of the recent terminations. In fact, a union should not protect some of the stupidity that has taken place that could have very well cost ALL of us our lively hood. Look at NJA, and no this is not an attack on them either. It was unable to protect their pilots from this economic disaster, which is what caused our original 85 to be on the street. While I am sure that they tried, in the end, they did what had to be done.

Every person on this board wants things to be back the way they were a couple of years ago, but that just is not going to happen overnight, if ever. What we do have as Flex pilots and spouses is a strong company that has just as good an ability, if not more, to survive this storm and come out better and stronger on the other side. This is what I stay optimistic about.

Well said!:beer:

 

[ArtVandalay]

Notaapilot,

This is gonna be long I apologize in advance but I truly want to answer your questions and spark thoughtful debate.

Netjetwife is correct: I am purposefully trying to be vague because I am not trying to get people to talk out of school or air a bunch of dirty laundry all over the internet. I am also trying to be respectful of the sources of information I have been given lest I be guilt-ridden with having few innocent people caught in the cross hairs of an ugly situation.

Fact is plain and simple that as a group, Flex pilots need to protect scope, lock in work rules and provide the group with a fair and equitable resolution system for dealing with disciplinary and other matters. In my mind the past year with furloughs, CAFOs, some interesting changes in the manuals and other miscellaneous matters I would think this would be obvious to the simplest of you.

You asked me to be specific so I will try to better explain my concerns regarding the BJS LXJ situation. I consider myself pretty well read on the TAG situation but as a non pilot I am the first to admit I don’t necessarily understand the way daily operations may or may not play into this. But how can you say with a straight face that BJS is a completely separate entity from the foreign owned entity of LXJ? There may be separate floors and door locks, but it is definitely a combined enterprise at the same convenient address.. Everything from human resource & administrative issues, to scheduling, long range planning, owner & in flight services, ground ops, dispatch, maintenance decisions and issues, hiring decisions (well maybe not lately), firing decisions, training etc it’s pretty clear there are some gray lines. Up until a little while ago your paychecks even came from BJS for jake’s sake. And if I’m not mistaken I’ve been told some of the language that’s been added to the manuals over the past year give the implication that BJS has more and more control over “in flight” issues because they have more flexibility in the way things get handled from a regulation perspective. But that’s way out of my league as I barely understand V1 rotate.

Dirty Beech speaks of a few captains who have helped themselves out of a job recently. Rumor has it at least half of them were 135 issues that these guys were told plain and simple would have been a different story if they were 91 trips. And what about that guy who is now out a license let alone a job because he misunderstood the ability for ASAP to protect him on a 135 trip.

And why does no one want to investigate the dozens upon dozens of bombardier aircraft registered to Waterview, including a sweet fair share of globals. Now I’m not sure if that’s BJS or LXJ but no one finds that curious? Unless I am mistaken I thought the business scope of both parties limited them to operations and fractional sales not “brokership” or management so what gives? We all know there are a few planes (Houston, STL and TN might be some) that are being quietly managed on the side using LXJ resources but not LXJ pilots. And yet we have 85 on the street. That’s the connection my friend. My suspicion is that LXJ, Bombardier or BJS (let’s face it you are really an employee of all three) resources are used to generate business income but not protect pilot jobs. Might be legal, might be good business etc… but if true it’s kinda slimy.

Also why does the list of available typed pilots both bombardier and the training center give out to private whole owners in need of temporary services not include the 85 at the top of it’s lists? A good friend of my husband’s (not one of the 85) is on the list and makes a decent living doing only Bombardier and CAE Simuflite referrals and my understanding he’s one of many.

This get long winded and I’d be happy to expound on more if you need me to, but isn’t this enough yet? I am only looking out for my family. If you can prove to me I have no reason to worry I will be grateful to you believe me. I WANT to be wrong.

We are quite happy with my husband’s pay, bonus, vacation etc… and absolutely do not feel a need for overtime to supplement the income. This IS NOT about money. Pushing for a union is the only way I see of forcing the company to uphold certain implied contractual obligations that are worthless right now as you are all at will employees. I actually think for the most part most of the higher ups are decent guys but make no mistake they will protect themselves long before they will protect you. You need to fix that.

In the end, who cares about bjs lxj or bombardier?? It all boils down to profitability and future planning. If both look good, we all get to work. Who cares if bjs "barely" skirts legality??? I mean, barely legal is still legal. You can't be a little pregnant, either you are or your not. So, by saying that bjs is a vague entity that skirts the law is only said that way for you to make a punch-line with it and beef up the public anxiety about it. Other than that, it just doesn't matter.
So what if there are 20 globals temporarily using lxj tail numbers. It might be as simple as someone in the office saying, "don't purchase new tail numbers, lets just use flexjet numbers until its sold and we'll save a little money." Yet, you read into it that there is some conspiracy in hiding everything. And, what do you know about the scope of Bombardier business?? If you thought their scope denied them this ability, that means you have other knowledge of their scope, can you discuss this please? What other scope of Bombardier business do you know about??

What aircraft are there in houston or TN that you speak of with no flexjet pilots?? what are the tail numbers? There is one houston plane with flexjet pilots, is that what you speak of? give us more info on this. When you say they are "quietly" managed, what does that mean? If its quiet then how do you know about it?

Idle minds are the devil's playground.

 

[netjetwife]

So in your wacked out world, what was wrong with what NJW said. I agree 100% with what she said. I bet you, outside of FI, agree with her.

Hello, DL... It is bizarre. There he sits in a fudpuddle, grasping at straws like a drowning man, desperate to discredit those who believe in professional compensation for pilots and the right to work under a contract. Both concepts are widely accepted in our country.

I can still recall the shock on the secretary's face when I went into my kids' school office to get the form for government assistance with the lunch price. She was shocked that a pilot's family would qualify. Luckily, that changed in 2005. Today a NJ 1st yr FO with even 4 kids wouldn't qualify, but I don't think we can say that for all the frac FOs out there.

I agree 100% that it is out of whack to expect pilots to work for govt assistance qualifying wages. My belief in that basic premise remains unchanged and I stand by all my posts advocating professional compensation for pilots. NJW

 

[B19 Flyer]

You're union failed and is continuing to fail.

Hello, DL... It is bizarre. There he sits in a fudpuddle, grasping at straws like a drowning man, desperate to discredit those who believe in professional compensation for pilots and the right to work under a contract. Both concepts are widely accepted in our country.

I can still recall the shock on the secretary's face when I went into my kids' school office to get the form for government assistance with the lunch price. She was shocked that a pilot's family would qualify. Luckily, that changed in 2005. Today a NJ 1st yr FO with even 4 kids wouldn't qualify, but I don't think we can say that for all the frac FOs out there.

I agree 100% that it is out of whack to expect pilots to work for govt assistance qualifying wages. My belief in that basic premise remains unchanged and I stand by all my posts advocating professional compensation for pilots. NJW

I'm just curious. You have noted repeatedly how your husband is retired Air Force and flew F-16s. I know what Colonel retirement pay is. How did you qualify on goverment assistance with his retirement pay? A little bit of stretching the truth and a little lack of disclosure perhaps?


You didn't just advocate professional pay for pilots, you clearly stated that rank and file workers didn't deserve what they earned because they were free to be pilots if they had chosen to make that investment.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showpost.php?p=1527412&postcount=101

And because they invested in other careers, that apparently made them inferior in your mind to pilots so they deserved to have their careers threatened by the unionization of pilots.

How many non pilots have lost their jobs since all this started? Is anybody keeping track???? I doubt it.

You're union failed and is continuing to fail. Same thing on the T/A at FLOPS.

Don't worry, those non-union fracs will continue to chug along and make room for those furloughed union pilots.

 

[GSXR600]

back to the original post

You bunch of morons killed the fun of this thread by turning it into a f*&(*ing union discussion...give it a break guys!!

Please back to the flight attendant and janitor recalls!

 

[CL300Pilot]

How about, "Twenty one die in twenty one gun salute", George Carlin : )O

 

[ArtVandalay]

How about the mass exodus going on at flex right now? everyday I hear about someone else "leaving" . scary stuff.

 

[RP170]

How about the mass exodus going on at flex right now? everyday I hear about someone else "leaving" . scary stuff.

Maybe there will be some recalls huh?

 

[notapilot]

For those who are curious....the applicable parts of a longer version.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/libel

Libel 1) n. to publish in print ... an untruth about another which will do harm to that person or his/her reputation, by tending to bring the target into ridicule, hatred, scorn or contempt of others. It is a tort (civil wrong) making the person or entity open to a lawsuit for damages by the person who can prove the statement about him/her was a lie. Publication .. must be a statement which claims to be fact, and is not clearly identified as an opinion. .... Thanks for the accurate definition.

FW:

"Fact: there are dozens upon dozens of bombardier aircraft w/o lxj tags registered to the waterview address. Fact: the marriage between flex and BJS barely skirts the law it was intended to fulfill but both companies have successfully used it's legal neccessity to further muddy the waters in some very unscrupulous ways Fact: there are 85 flex guys on the street on part because of these games


It's a big stretch to think that there would be legal action over her comments, but it is not a stretch that she gave ammunition to those wanting to reveal her identity. After all she is the one with all the conspiracy theories. Surely you wouldn't put it past such evil managment minds to pursue legal action, request her identity and then drop the case. My understanding is that it has happened before on FI. Thanks for the childish play on my name. I like it.


FW, you do not have to accuse someone of anything illegal to be sued for libel. Sorry to disapppoint you, but FI would have no choice but to follow a legal order. I am not against "effecting change". I just have no tolerance for the damaging speculation and lies you and others represent as truth.

Very Sincerely,

Notpolite

 

[FalconPilot69]

What mass exodus?

How about the mass exodus going on at flex right now? everyday I hear about someone else "leaving" . scary stuff.