Flexjet Pilot Authorization Card

[DirtyBeech]

I'm with you SDCFI. I'd like to stay here and let required increase in benefits and QOL take place. I'll give them until May for that (or February if they'll man up and announce all the improvements), but it needs to be significant. It would be so much better to be at a destination job than one who treats it's employees like it's a stepping stone outfit like the one I just left.

I'll wait. We'll see. All the voicemails let's you know that DG knows the natives are restless. If I get another $3 a day pay increase then I'll send in my resume to NJA's the same day.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Why are so many people willing to "wait until may"? The company says it is for "budget reason." That is the biggest load of crap I have ever heard. Since when can a company not issue raises for "budget reasons?" Does NJ have to wait until the end of their fiscal year?

Dont buy into it! They can change the budget if they want to. Hell the government does it almost weekly.

Here's the real reason: Bonus checks for upper management will go bye bye if they have to change the budget.

 

[DirtyBeech]

Our government is several trillion in the hole, because they do whatever they want with the budget. Bad example. I'll wait, because that's when the new fiscal year starts at Flex. It's no different than saying the new pay grade starts January 1st at any other company. I'd like it to happen now, but that's not going to happen, and getting the union to set up shop will only delay things by a number of years. The best thing that could happen would be to lock in the new benefits when they come out, and have the union start setting up shop the next day.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

It's no different than saying the new pay grade starts January 1st at any other company.

I've never known another airline to do that. do you know of one? its not normal, and we should not put up with it.

 

[DirtyBeech]

We're not an airline, and in case you haven't noticed, Bombardier/Flex doesn't do business like everybody else. It's frustrating as hell sometimes, I know, but that's how they do it. You can either wait for May or wait for several years while a union gets it's act together. I'll wait til May. Until then all this moaning is all Sound and no Fury.

I would like some of the non monetary QOL changes to take place before May, and that is doable.

 

[fischman]

I'm one of those 0-4 year guys at Flex. I don't mind waiting until May for the improvements to kick in, but they better be BIG. If I don't like what I see I'll be sending out two things: 1) Union card 2) Updated resume to Netjets. I sincerely don't think management is stalling regarding the fiscal year and such when it comes to pay/benefits, but I also agree there's no reason they can't open up new bases and improve the rest/work rules and number of days worked right now. The new TA at NJA notwithstanding we are still at the bottom of the pack when it comes to bases and rest periods (floating rest). That is unacceptable, and ironic since just about every VM reminds us how much we still need new pilots. How can you expect people to come here with mid-level pay and shoddy work rules?

Huh. I wonder what Googster would have to say about that...

 

[Ultra Grump]

I'm one of those 0-4 year guys at Flex. I don't mind waiting until May for the improvements to kick in, but they better be BIG. If I don't like what I see I'll be sending out two things: 1) Union card 2) Updated resume to Netjets.

I would suggest sending the resume to NJA now to get the ball rolling, since it's pretty unlikely you would get an interview before May, anyway. There is also going to be a FLOOD of resumes if/when the IBB passes. Better to be ahead of the wave than following it in.

 

[bailey3083]

I'm with you SDCFI. I'd like to stay here and let required increase in benefits and QOL take place. I'll give them until May for that (or February if they'll man up and announce all the improvements), but it needs to be significant. It would be so much better to be at a destination job than one who treats it's employees like it's a stepping stone outfit like the one I just left.

I'll wait. We'll see. All the voicemails let's you know that DG knows the natives are restless. If I get another $3 a day pay increase then I'll send in my resume to NJA's the same day.

Yes we at Flex understand that we are under budget from Montreal and any increases has to come thru Montreal but this is just not about money. Opening Bases, Improving Scheduling, Improving work rules, Improving Crew Meals, Improving rest rules are all things that DG and MM can go ahead and now start to work with the CAB to fix and improve but instead we are getting everyone will have to wait. WHY?
The other problem at Flex is that there is a huge gap between hiring. It has just been in the last 2 years that they have hired large numbers so I believe that management's thoughts are We have this percentage of people under 2 years who will have to pay and this number of people over 7 years who have to much to lose so if we lose this percentage of the 2-4 yr people it will no effect us that badly so lets throw crumbs to those who think Flex is the sh*t, tell them to drink more Kool Aid then tell those 2-4 yrs to go to hell. ( See working in management during college did me well.LOL)

 

[CL300Pilot]

Bailey,

Do I hear a hint of you leaning toward the union now?

The CAB has been working on the same issues long before either you or I got hired here with no results. I don't see Montreal letting DG or MM or anyone else for that matter do much on the compensation side. I don't know which way this union thing is going to go, but I do know to strap on the boots, because I think it is about to get very interesting over the next several months.

Yes we at Flex understand that we are under budget from Montreal and any increases has to come thru Montreal but this is just not about money. Opening Bases, Improving Scheduling, Improving work rules, Improving Crew Meals, Improving rest rules are all things that DG and MM can go ahead and now start to work with the CAB to fix and improve but instead we are getting everyone will have to wait. WHY?
The other problem at Flex is that there is a huge gap between hiring. It has just been in the last 2 years that they have hired large numbers so I believe that management's thoughts are We have this percentage of people under 2 years who will have to pay and this number of people over 7 years who have to much to lose so if we lose this percentage of the 2-4 yr people it will no effect us that badly so lets throw crumbs to those who think Flex is the sh*t, tell them to drink more Kool Aid then tell those 2-4 yrs to go to hell. ( See working in management during college did me well.LOL)

 

[dime line]

because I think it is about to get very interesting over the next several months.

Guys its a long road doing this contract, I just wish we did it long before this at FLOPS, but it will be well worth it. Just seeing what management is capable of doing before the union and especially after, makes me thankfull i'm paying dues to have somebody in my court, while the company has its "kangaroo court"

 

[bailey3083]

Bailey,

Do I hear a hint of you leaning toward the union now?

The CAB has been working on the same issues long before either you or I got hired here with no results. I don't see Montreal letting DG or MM or anyone else for that matter do much on the compensation side. I don't know which way this union thing is going to go, but I do know to strap on the boots, because I think it is about to get very interesting over the next several months.

Well I am still on the fence but if Management will not step up and answer the group correctly then yes we need to disband the CAB and bring something that forces management to listen. The other point is why are we the ONLY division of Bombardier who is NOT unionized?
Yes we need to strap our BS boots on because we are about to hear alot of it over the coming months.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

The other point is why are we the ONLY division of Bombardier who is NOT unionized?

Thats actually a really good thing to point out. I've heard a lot of people say "if we unionize bombardier will just get rid of us." But like you said, they deal with unions throughout the rest of their company so there is no reason to believe they'd simply dump us

 

[bailey3083]

Thats actually a really good thing to point out. I've heard a lot of people say "if we unionize bombardier will just get rid of us." But like you said, they deal with unions throughout the rest of their company so there is no reason to believe they'd simply dump us

Simple scare tactic kinda like politicians use everyday and alot of people have bought it. It is simple, we make Bombardier lots of money and help keep their order books full so why would they dump us?
The movement has started again but alot quieter then before but in May if DG gives us crumbs ( like I believe he will) there will be no stopping the drive as it will finally have a reason.

 

[vixin]

It has the reason now. History will repeat itself. DG wont do a darn thing...

 

[CL300Pilot]

With the meetings happening after the holidays, most likely Feb 1 time frame, that will be the deciding point. IMO

Simple scare tactic kinda like politicians use everyday and alot of people have bought it. It is simple, we make Bombardier lots of money and help keep their order books full so why would they dump us?
The movement has started again but alot quieter then before but in May if DG gives us crumbs ( like I believe he will) there will be no stopping the drive as it will finally have a reason.

 

[XBI]

The voice message from DG and other "happy talk" text messages we are getting during the holiday travel seem to point to the fact that a re-evaluation of the entire compensation package is happening. If they really want to show good faith, they could make improvements long before the phoney May budget takes effect. A truely low cost, but significant change would be loosening up the gateway restrictions, and getting rid of the highly questionable floating rest policy. This should be followed up with the industry leading payroll increases when that magical month of May rolls around.

 

[bailey3083]

The messages are to make you all warm and fuzzy inside like after a bunch of beers at the pickle bar. DG said after the holidays they are going to START meetings about compensation but why wait until May to get it? Because if DG gave us a pay raise starting Feb 1 then he and all the top level managers lose out on their bonus checks.
I am bothered that management keeps talking about pay, yes I would like more, but what about a better bidding system or different scheduling options? What about better 401K contributions? What about better Health Care, hell if I am paying for it why cant I get the best or why cant they pay for it? Bases( need I say more)?
In my view to stop a union DG will have to increase pay but no less then 15%, Fix Rest, Better work rules, More Bases, More 401k contribution, Better scheduling options and Better if not company sponsored Health care. ( Cha right none of that is going to happen with a former Allegany Manager).

 

[gunfyter]

Thats actually a really good thing to point out. I've heard a lot of people say "if we unionize bombardier will just get rid of us." But like you said, they deal with unions throughout the rest of their company so there is no reason to believe they'd simply dump us

Laughable.

So Bombardier would abandon the Fractional market?

NJ won't sell Lears or Challengers. CS won't.

Will they depend on XO jet?

When you think about it Flex Pilots are the most secure of all OEM Frax pilots. Cessna could dump CS ... NJ is selling a lot of Citations. Raytheon dumped Options ... NJ is selling a lot of Hawkers.

But who will sell Lears and Challengers on the Frax market?

 

[jonjuan]

Laughable.

So Bombardier would abandon the Fractional market?

NJ won't sell Lears or Challengers. CS won't.

Will they depend on XO jet?

When you think about it Flex Pilots are the most secure of all OEM Frax pilots. Cessna could dump CS ... NJ is selling a lot of Citations. Raytheon dumped Options ... NJ is selling a lot of Hawkers.

But who will sell Lears and Challengers on the Frax market?

So with your reasoning, bombardier needs flex to sell aircraft? Then why don't they sell the global, which is sold out until 2012 at 30-40 a year? With a 3 year Challenger backlog, the backlog would be reduced to 2.7 years. With a 2 year Lear backlog, the backlog would be reduced to 1.5 years without flexjet.
XOjet seems to have have the bulk of the cx and c300 backlog going forward. The Sovereign production is out 2.5 years WITHOUT nja and cs, 3.5 years with.
The ONLY aircraft in the world which needed a frax to keep the assembly line moving was the hawker 400.
Every frax could go away tomorrow and the manufacturing backlog wouldn't move. Charter companies would suck up every new aircraft by the end of the week-FACT. Three charter companies I know would all pay a PREMIUM for any immediate delivery hawker 800, lr60, 45, and Sovereign they could get their hands on.
Now standards between frax and charter companies? That's another story altogether.

 

[gunfyter]

No thats not my logic.

My logic is they will not abandon fractional sales regardless of their ability to sell aircraft through other channels. They will not dump FlexJets because a union forms on the property.

So if I were a Flex pilot I would not fear such a threat in the least.

 

[AirChef]

Actually most of us think we would be much better off without Bombardier, they are a follower and we need a leader.

 

[CL300Pilot]

2 years ago we were almost bought by Penske. The only reason we are not wearing Penkse orange is because they reupped the price on them. Don't think for one second that Bombardier would not dump us in a heart beat if they got the money they wanted along with the new buyer selling strictly Bombardier products. Then they still get their fractional sales and are rid of the liability.

CL300Pilot

No thats not my logic.

My logic is they will not abandon fractional sales regardless of their ability to sell aircraft through other channels. They will not dump FlexJets because a union forms on the property.

So if I were a Flex pilot I would not fear such a threat in the least.

 

[jonjuan]

No thats not my logic.

My logic is they will not abandon fractional sales regardless of their ability to sell aircraft through other channels. They will not dump FlexJets because a union forms on the property.

So if I were a Flex pilot I would not fear such a threat in the least.

Gotcha. I agree.

 

[jonjuan]

2 years ago we were almost bought by Penske. The only reason we are not wearing Penkse orange is because they reupped the price on them. Don't think for one second that Bombardier would not dump us in a heart beat if they got the money they wanted along with the new buyer selling strictly Bombardier products. Then they still get their fractional sales and are rid of the liability.

CL300Pilot

So in that vein, Warren would dump nja in a heartbeat to get rid of the liability if he gets the price he wants? Neither is going anywhere, certainly not in this corporate jet market.

 

[Wiggums]

So in that vein, Warren would dump nja in a heartbeat to get rid of the liability if he gets the price he wants? Neither is going anywhere, certainly not in this corporate jet market.

Bombardier's primary business is building train sets. Second business is building aircraft. Operating a fractional operates a few of the aircraft they build is not part of their core business. You can tell that Flex is not what they really care about when they sell 80 CL300s to a Flex competitor. If Flex was spun off it would be better for the pilots there as they would be free to compete directly with NJ without the restrictions made by Montreal.

 

[NETFLIER]

well i would like to input gents.

that if you have a contract it doesnt matter who buys who or who goes where, your contract stays the same. your workrules wouldnt change.

 

[bailey3083]

Dont buy managements scare tactic that we will be sold. It will only get worse as more people finally start to speak more openly about a union.

 

[CL300Pilot]

You are absolutely correct.

I was only bringing up the point that we were almost sold already which shows a precedence as to where Bombardier stands when it comes to Flexjet.

Do I think we are being sold, no, not at the moment. But who knows what tomorrow holds.

well i would like to input gents.

that if you have a contract it doesnt matter who buys who or who goes where, your contract stays the same. your workrules wouldnt change.

 

[gunfyter]

2 years ago we were almost bought by Penske. The only reason we are not wearing Penkse orange is because they reupped the price on them. Don't think for one second that Bombardier would not dump us in a heart beat if they got the money they wanted along with the new buyer selling strictly Bombardier products. Then they still get their fractional sales and are rid of the liability.

CL300Pilot

Anything can happen BUT...

I originally said Flex pilots were in the Best position ... this is compared (its relative) to other Frax pilots ... BECAUSE they have no competition in the fractionals operating Bombardier products.

The example is Options pilots were not in as good a position while owned by Raytheon because Raytheon was selling many Hawkers to Netjets.

The probability of options being sold existed long before unionization began... Raytheon was looking to dump the operation for years.

 

[CL300Pilot]

I originally said Flex pilots were in the Best position ... this is compared (its relative) to other Frax pilots ... BECAUSE they have no competition in the fractionals operating Bombardier products.

Except for XOJet. I realize that they will be getting the 300's at the end of 2008, but the future is certainly cloudy for Flex now.