Flexjet Management Promotes Calling Pilots while in Rest

[The Architect]

It's called Scope

Do you think that the IBT and FO management are going to lock horns? Are they going to war over their contract? Is FJ going into position to cover FO trips in the event?

Flexjet flying Flight Options trips is limited by protections in the Flight Options Pilots CBA.

Any other operator flying Flight Options trips is limited by subcontract charter provisions, including Flexjet.

So, Flexjet covering Flights Options trips in violation of Scope is not going to happen. However, Flight Options can have their pilots fly all of the Flexjet trips they want. No limits.

 

[warlord19]

imacdog, uh, you are simply wrong. you can NOW be notified +- 2hrs unless you are on the no-call list. Glorified Cab..I accept your offer for a brew. jet wash, unfortunately we all have our share of these types of stories, though for the MOST part they have disappeared with the “band” method we use.

My concern’s are helping make Flex a SAFE, efficient organization…one fatal crash due to company-induced pilot fatigue would be a serious, perhaps fatal blow to the fractional industry. I think FO has a strict no-call policy while in rest, and that is fine. The COST is more pilots, higher DH, more charter, etc. when sh*t happens in the real world.

This is the area that our DO is looking at to see if we can become more efficient and still maintain a safe working environment. There is a lot of discussion on Yammer on this subject and I imagine some new policies will emerge.

I’m not anti-union per se, but i’m not pro-union(especially IBT) just because it’s the thing to do nowadays(which it isn’t).

This is a great discussion and no goobers have emerged lately to coarsen it’s tone.

Again, Cheers,
WL
PS..ah Architect, you funny guy>

 

[imacdog]

Safety does cost money. How much money are you willing to save?

 

[The Architect]

Flight Options Pilots get their Rest

From the Flight Options Pilots CBA:

Definitions -

"Rest/Rest Period - [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]A period of time free of all responsibility for work or duty prior to the commencement of, or following completion of, a duty period and during which the pilot cannot be required to receive contact from the Company. A rest period does not include any time during which the Company imposes on a pilot any duty or restraint, including any actual work or present responsibility for work should the occasion arise."[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]

Hours of Service -

"Pilots are not required to keep the Company-issued communications device "on" during rest. During a period of time when a pilot is not obligated to be contactable, an electronic brief is not effective unless it is affirmatively accepted by the pilot. If the Company attempts to contact a pilot in violation of this subsection, the required rest period begins anew. An individual pilot may not brief another pilot in rest of his start time or a revision to his start time."


The same CEO and VP of Operations at both companies. Flight Options pilots work under that above rules. Why is there a problem with Flexjet pilots being treated the same way? If senior management cares so much about the pilots, why abolish the "no call" list? Hell, why not do just the opposite? Why not make the above language policy at Flexjet and be done with it?
[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[The Architect]

Plan for It

I think FO has a strict no-call policy while in rest, and that is fine. The COST is more pilots, higher DH, more charter, etc. when sh*t happens in the real world.

See, that's the problem, or maybe the trap that management in the industry likes to play. The COST is greater because...

That's a bad argument. The standard begins with safety, regulations and uninterrupted, prospective rest assignments. The concept that this costs more money is smoke and mirrors.

You see, the cost of operations of this nature must take into account the standard of uninterrupted, prospective rest for pilots. Not the other way around. "When sh*t happens in the real world" needs to be planned for without pilots responding and the company changing duty assignments while in that rest. That's not how the FAA looks at it. That's not how the NTSB looks at it. And that's how management should look at it when seeking the TRUST and respect of their pilot.

So, by agreeing to answer your phone, during what should be your uninterrupted, prospective rest; you may be providing some financial saving that the company should not depend on. You are lining someone's pocket at your expense.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

WL. I might run into you one of these days. The first(or second) is on me. Watch out for the guy with min rest then does something stupid and tries to hang you. I hate to rat out another pilot but, when YOU get the CGF1??

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

What cracks me up and blows my mind is that all I hear on here from FlexJet pilots is how we at Flight Options are the ones bringing the industry down, etc....

However you guys are just willing to roll over and accept the company calling you an hour into your ten hour rest or two hours before the end of ten hours.

What's the point of a 10 hour rest period, if you are going to let the company call you during it. Whether it's 1 hr after the start or 2 hrs before the end or right in the middle of it.

Great way to bring down the industry.

The FAA has allowed one contact during rest. This is a legal interpretation.

It sounds like when you ar sent to the hotel you aren't given a clear message as to when your 10 hours of rest is.

When we get our closing information it clearly lists when our 10 of required rest is. It may not be when we duty off. We can be released at 1600 but not start rest until 2200 since we have a later show. They can never move a trip into our required 10 hours of rest. That would violate 135 rest rules.

What our DO is asking for does not violate any rest rules.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Sounds like you are confusing released to the hotel with released for rest.

 

[slowtation capt]

The FAA has allowed one contact during rest. This is a legal interpretation.

It sounds like when you ar sent to the hotel you aren't given a clear message as to when your 10 hours of rest is.

When we get our closing information it clearly lists when our 10 of required rest is. It may not be when we duty off. We can be released at 1600 but not start rest until 2200 since we have a later show. They can never move a trip into our required 10 hours of rest. That would violate 135 rest rules.

What our DO is asking for does not violate any rest rules.

If you are sent to the hotel but not released, then you are still on duty. They can call you.

So why is there this debate then? If you are saying that you are talking about the time when you have been released from the fbo to the hotel, but not given or started your formal required rest period.

 

[slowtation capt]

If you are sent to the hotel but not released, then you are still on duty. They can call you.

So why is there this debate then? If you are saying that you are talking about the time when you have been released from the fbo to the hotel, but not given or started your formal required rest period.

Same thing happens with us, many times at the hotel for a few hours before we get our official release and start our required rest.

 

[rajflyboy]

Nothing new here. This is how most 135 operators run

 

[brokeflyer]

sounds like you guys a need a union over there to protect you from unsafe management practices.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

See, that's the problem, or maybe the trap that management in the industry likes to play. The COST is greater because...

That's a bad argument. The standard begins with safety, regulations and uninterrupted, prospective rest assignments. The concept that this costs more money is smoke and mirrors.

You see, the cost of operations of this nature must take into account the standard of uninterrupted, prospective rest for pilots. Not the other way around. "When sh*t happens in the real world" needs to be planned for without pilots responding and the company changing duty assignments while in that rest. That's not how the FAA looks at it. That's not how the NTSB looks at it. And that's how management should look at it when seeking the TRUST and respect of their pilot.

So, by agreeing to answer your phone, during what should be your uninterrupted, prospective rest; you may be providing some financial saving that the company should not depend on. You are lining someone's pocket at your expense.

Why do you guys care so much about our operation.

We are separate are looks like we are going to stay that way for the time being.

By my math you guys can start early negotiations Oct 1st.

Why don't you worry more about getting a better contract that what we are doing.

What we do doesn't affect you, but you love to stick your nose in our business.

Whoever posted this to a public site took a private discussion going on inside the company and took it public. Not sure what their intent was.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

We are involved because your operation could set a bad precedent for us. We endured the abuse for years and don't want to go back to those days. Do you get paid more than us? Sure you do, but we have work rules that have to be negotiated before they can be changed. And we are no longer at-will employees. If you are a member of the "good ol boys' club" it wouldn't matter to you. For those that aren't in the club, It's pretty important.

 

[el raton]

We are involved because your operation could set a bad precedent for us. We endured the abuse for years and don't want to go back to those days. Do you get paid more than us? Sure you do, but we have work rules that have to be negotiated before they can be changed. And we are no longer at-will employees. If you are a member of the "good ol boys' club" it wouldn't matter to you. For those that aren't in the club, It's pretty important.

You have a contract. What happens to us won't affect you.

 

[slowtation capt]

You have a contract. What happens to us won't affect you.

That's where you are wrong. What happens to you effects us and everyone else. When management comes to the table they have their demands as well as we. If they believe they are doing something at Flex that they want here, ie. such as calling you within your 10 hr s of rest, then they will want to implement that at Options and will demand it.
And that in there is the apparent problem, you see it as something that is strictly your problem, and not something that can, could and would affect the industry. So instead of thinking as a whole, you just like of you and how it affects you.

 

[The Architect]

I'll Say It

What we do doesn't affect you, but you love to stick your nose in our business.

Whoever posted this to a public site took a private discussion going on inside the company and took it public. Not sure what their intent was.

Ok. I can't resist. That's simply BS.

Public site? Private discussion? Come on.

Seniority integration, bases, schedules...

You're happy to discuss, even argue, your position on those things and more on this "public site." But if it's something that YOU don't what known to others in the industry or discuss - it's a "private discussion." Give me a break.

So, in light of that, and in order to play on a level field, let me present the following in it's entirety.

From the Flexjet DO, email content unedited:

From: RH, DO
Date: July 23, 2014
To: Flexjet Crew
Subject: Flex pilots, for your consideration...

August 19th will mark a year that I have been back in the office. How time flies and what a year it has been. I had only been back in the office for three days when I was informed of the pending sale of the company and so started the emotional roller coaster ride. In that time the Flight Operations management team never lost sight in representing and supporting the crewmembers. Over the past year and especially the past several months it is abundantly clear that no significant quality of life changes have occurred and our new leadership wants nothing more than to win our trust and build an even better company on the foundation we established. Earning your trust in the new company with new leadership is no easy task. It is built over time and is proven through actions. It took many years for the Flight Operations team to build that relationship with its pilots. With the following issue, I am asking for your cooperation once again.

I wanted to address a topic that seems to have grown out of nowhere during the years I was out flying the line. It is the issue of the "no call list". The list of crewmembers that have told the company they are turning off their phones during rest. Before I begin down this path I must make one thing abundantly clear. If you so choose, no one in this company will ever assign you or make you answer your phone during rest. Neither I nor anyone in the company can require you to answer your phone in rest. The company has no intentions of bending that rule. So what am I talking about? I'm talking about the choice to tell the company "under no circumstances are you to call me during rest." Then making this a blanket policy for every duty day regardless of an assignment or not. I don't understand why this has become such a big issue but I truly want to understand why. It is a fact that the no-call list hurts the operation, drives more dead-head, duty hours, standby and most of all punishes the crewmembers that are not on the list. Now I'm not saying if you are tired that you don't have the option of not being disturbed. When you are fatigued you should absolutely request not to be contacted during your assigned rest period! I?m sure everyone has a story of how they were played by dispatch or scheduling and I'm sure that story is a good one. But ask yourself this question, how many times has this truly happened? I assure you whatever the number it pales in comparison to the lost opportunities, additional deadhead and unnecessary increased duty hours on you and your fellow crewmembers. I fully understand this is a two way street. Operations certainly played a hand in this as well. There is plenty of blame to go around, but the way to mend that fence starts with each and every one of us.

My request is simple. Let's bring back a level of trust we have not seen here in a while. I am asking that we abolish that list and I promise you this: no one from the company will call you more than once while you are in rest. That call will only happen in the first two and probably the last two hours of a 10 hour minimum rest. In other words you will be guaranteed 8 hours uninterrupted rest at a minimum. There will be no unnecessary calls with that 10 minute itinerary change at 4 a.m. because of an indifference to the fact you may be sleeping. If anyone calls a second time, then you are out of rest and company will back you 100%. All I am asking is that you leave your phone on along with Flexmobile during your assigned rest period. Leave texting or any other alerts off since there is always a chance of an erroneous message. There will be no repetitive emails or texts, no notifications from the company unless it's an urgent issue and no breaking your rest accept for operational purposes.

The blanket policy of not being able to call makes no sense. Knowing you are contactable is a huge advantage to the operation and will go a long way in rebuilding the diminished level of trust, but it must start with you. We have a fantastic group of crewmembers and you all have proven to be team players. Like we have said many times before the ball is dropped just about every day and you guys pick it up running. We understand you are the backbone of this operation and we also understand this is a sensitive issue. Again, if you feel you need the rest, call the company, tell them you are turning the phone off, pull the curtains and go to sleep. You will get no push back from us, only our support. Rest assured we have your backs.

I want you to know I have put out a similar request to the operations floor. My motivation to return to the office was the opportunity to work on pilot quality of life issues and to make this an even better place to work. I didn't anticipate the sale and all the anxiety. Let's face it, it's been a tough year full of uncertainty but now things are certainly looking up. You voted for 34 new bases and it was approved. Many of you have upgraded, more than we have seen in years. Soon we will have paperless expense reporting, we are making progress on last day rules, and much more to come. It is an exciting time to be working for Flexjet! Lastly, know you're Chief Pilots and I are here to support you. It's time to build back the trust we have lost. In the next several weeks we will be calling everyone on the no-call list. We want to listen to your concerns and ultimately we will respect any decision you make. All we ask is that you please consider putting back the trust in us and your company. The decision either way is up to you.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Thanks Architect.
From what I read, the company lost the pilots trust and the pilots added their names to the "no call" list. Something must have been going on for the list to even exist. It had to involve more that just a few isolated wake up calls.

 

[The Architect]

A Step Closer

You have a contract. What happens to us won't affect you.

It's ok to change your position on things. Like we don't need representation anymore, or maybe we need to consideration if we need representation.

Keep this in mind, if you don't thing that the senior executives and their underlings from these different companies communicate, your wrong. The largest competitors in the industry exchange concepts in order to produce financial gains on the backs of the workers. That's just the way it is.

So, when it comes to labor-management relationships, policies and guidelines, what happens at Flexjet affects Netjets, Flight Options and others. Just like what happens at Netjets affects Flexjet and Flight Options. Flexjet pilots have experienced that first hand.

But, do you think what is said here really affects any of that? Do you? Seriously?

This is a place of open, free, anonymous exchanges of concepts, ideas, company policies and much more. The people that really decide what happens in the workplace are management. Unless you are represented by a union. Period.

You are an "at will" employee or not. There may not be a single right answer to that choice. Perhaps one question is which way may result in even a little better work environment?

El raton, you and your fellow workers have the ability to make that choice when and if you choose. But, it's a good thing to at least consider where you want to stand on issues. The sad thing is some of your fellow workers, for whatever reason, make a hard stand of pro or anti-union and do not see beyond that. Stay open, think about your opportunities and don't draw a line in the sand without considering every option available.

 

[el raton]

Thanks Architect.
From what I read, the company lost the pilots trust and the pilots added their names to the "no call" list. Something must have been going on for the list to even exist. It had to involve more that just a few isolated wake up calls.

I see the light!!!! The sky is falling...quick! Quick! Get the teamsters. I want to give what I have away for some sh!tty representation.