Flexjet Management Promotes Calling Pilots while in Rest

[gutshotdraw]

Okay, let me ask the obvious question. WHY does your DO want you to answer the phone during rest?

Lets say you finished a trip and were placed in rest at 1800 and were briefed for a 10 AM check in. Is your DO saying they can call you at midnight and if you answer they can re-brief you for an 0400 show (10 hours after shutdown) for a revenue trip?

If so, that is PATENTLY ILLEGAL.

Under Part 91K or 135, you became unavailable for duty at 1800 but your PROSPECTIVE REST period doesn't end until 10 AM. You CANNOT legally perform a program flight prior to 10 AM in this scenario. Since that is the case, what is the point of having you answer the phone while in rest?

Yes, I know 135 operators have been distorting, shading, and violating the rest regulations for decades but the previously mentioned FAA clarifications should have FINALLY put this issue to bed (pardon the pun).

Rest is rest. That's not a union vs. non-union thing. It's a legal vs. illegal thing.

 

[doh]

does flex normally just violate part 91k like that all the time?

We operate under 135 rules all the time.

 

[DirtyBeech]

Okay, let me ask the obvious question. WHY does your DO want you to answer the phone during rest?

Lets say you finished a trip and were placed in rest at 1800 and were briefed for a 10 AM check in. Is your DO saying they can call you at midnight and if you answer they can re-brief you for an 0400 show (10 hours after shutdown) for a revenue trip?

If so, that is PATENTLY ILLEGAL.

Under Part 91K or 135, you became unavailable for duty at 1800 but your PROSPECTIVE REST period doesn't end until 10 AM. You CANNOT legally perform a program flight prior to 10 AM in this scenario. Since that is the case, what is the point of having you answer the phone while in rest?

Yes, I know 135 operators have been distorting, shading, and violating the rest regulations for decades but the previously mentioned FAA clarifications should have FINALLY put this issue to bed (pardon the pun).

Rest is rest. That's not a union vs. non-union thing. It's a legal vs. illegal thing.

They can move your scheduled show time up by as much as four hours if rest permits. And you are contactable in the first or last two hours of your rest block, but not both. So no. They couldn't have you show at 4 am. They could call you at 4 am to advise you of a 6 am show in the scenario you laid out.

The nightmare scenario, which admittedly almost never happens, is a 4 pm show where you are dutied on at noon so that you aren't available for 14 hours starting at 4 pm. Rest permitting they can change that duty on time to 8 am and contact you at 6 am. That has never happened to me, but it does set up a scenario where you can't protect both sides of the clock.

 

[squawk]

What is the motive for all this attention to the change band?
Is FJ preparing to respond to anticipated service disruptions on the FO side of the store?
Sooner or later, the IBT is going to feel the need to behave badly. Just talk to any NJ crew to find out what it may be like.

 

[gutshotdraw]

They can move your scheduled show time up by as much as four hours if rest permits. And you are contactable in the first or last two hours of your rest block, but not both. So no. They couldn't have you show at 4 am. They could call you at 4 am to advise you of a 6 am show in the scenario you laid out.

The nightmare scenario, which admittedly almost never happens, is a 4 pm show where you are dutied on at noon so that you aren't available for 14 hours starting at 4 pm. Rest permitting they can change that duty on time to 8 am and contact you at 6 am. That has never happened to me, but it does set up a scenario where you can't protect both sides of the clock.

WHO gave you that interpretation? Your POI?

You can get away with that if the new brief is for travel or a Part 91 repositioning flight but NOT for a 91K or 135 flight.

Given my discussions with two FSDO inspectors that I flew with once upon a time, AND multiple published interpretations of the regulations including the one cited above, when you go off duty with a brief in hand, the 10 hour period prior to the scheduled report time is the prospective rest period and CANNOT be changed to require an earlier show. IF you are contacted with a one time phone call during rest, the show time CAN be made for a LATER time.

Sounds to me like the best answer is to NOT ANSWER THE DAMN PHONE until show time.

 

[Praetorian]

Iron fist in a velvet glove

Sounds to me like the best answer is to NOT ANSWER THE DAMN PHONE until show time.

That's the way we do it at Flight Options. I've always felt that the best thing the union ever brought us was the ability to know for sure when I was going to work in the morning. I would never want to go back.

But see, this all plays into the whipsaw game that is being played with the FO and FX pilots. You have the DO over there running around whispering in the FX pilots ears telling them, "the reason you are paid more the the FO guys is because you are more available to fly and your planes don't break as much." Now he comes out with this in his July 23 missive to the FX pilots, letting them know just how special they are:

"My request is simple. Let's bring back a level of trust we have not seen here in a while. I am asking that we abolish that list (the no call list that apparently 75% of the FX pilot group is currently on) and I promise you this: no one from the company will call you more than once while you are in rest. That call will only happen in the first two and probably the last two hours of a 10 hour minimum rest. In other words you will be guaranteed 8 hours uninterrupted rest at a minimum."

Are you f**king kidding me? You guys should be bat s**t pissed. He's telling you that he is going to be gracious enough to grant you 8 hours of uninterrupted rest and you're on here defending him?

Yea I know he claims "it's voluntary". But look at his justification for asking you to keep your phones turned on:

"I don't understand why this has become such a big issue but I truly want to understand why. It is a fact that the no-call list hurts the operation, drives more dead-head, duty hours, standby...

No doubt, silly rules and regulations have a tendency to do that. I bet every operator would love to make their operation more efficient on the backs of the pilots the way this guy is.

And wait for it, "and most of all punishes the crewmembers that are not on the list." There you go, that's how they do it. See its all about how you are letting your buddies down.

Fact is, what he's trying to do here would be explicitly illegal except for the caveat he inserts at the beginning:

"Before I begin down this path I must make one thing abundantly clear. If you so choose, no one in this company will ever assign you or make you answer your phone during rest."

Sure. Guess what guys we been through this before, it's not going to seem "voluntary" when they get done with you. Remember, "In the next several weeks we will be calling everyone on the no-call list." I wonder what they'll tell you team players.

Don't forget, because the onus is on you to let the company know you will be asking for the rest you are legally entitled to: "Again, if you feel you need the rest, call the company, tell them you are turning the phone off, pull the curtains and go to sleep."

Don't forget to call them first though. Also remember while your lazy a$$ is in bed you're letting your buddy down.

 

[warlord19]

squack, don’t want to sound like a scold, but you do need to read the string to understand the issue. Our DO put out a message asking for a rethinking on our “no-call list” because it has grown quite large and DIRECTLY affects our DH, charter, airport standby, etc. The ever-vigilant Architecture immediately saw the evil intent behind this “uncle” inspired maneuver to further destroy his IBT and rip away all vestiges of any sort of rest period for us defenseless pilots, and so he and his apparchiks have rained mud, despair and doom on this string for the past week or so.

Meanwhile, we(pilots) are putting our opinions and feelings made known on Yammer and will lead (hopefully) to a better policy that will lead to a better notification policy. My hope is reducing airport standby.

I’m sure someone will let everyone here know what happens when the dust settles.

Cheers,
WL

 

[el raton]

squack, don?t want to sound like a scold, but you do need to read the string to understand the issue. Our DO put out a message asking for a rethinking on our ?no-call list? because it has grown quite large and DIRECTLY affects our DH, charter, airport standby, etc. The ever-vigilant Architecture immediately saw the evil intent behind this ?uncle? inspired maneuver to further destroy his IBT and rip away all vestiges of any sort of rest period for us defenseless pilots, and so he and his apparchiks have rained mud, despair and doom on this string for the past week or so.

Meanwhile, we(pilots) are putting our opinions and feelings made known on Yammer and will lead (hopefully) to a better policy that will lead to a better notification policy. My hope is reducing airport standby.

I?m sure someone will let everyone here know what happens when the dust settles.

Cheers,
WL

The "best" and only policy is no contact whatsoever during a 10 hour block of rest.

If we give them an inch on this one we will get screwed. Let's show Options that we don't need representation to stand our ground on this issue.

Leave us alone for 10 hours!

 

[squawk]

squack, don?t want to sound like a scold, but you do need to read the string to understand the issue. Our DO put out a message asking for a rethinking on our ?no-call list? because it has grown quite large and DIRECTLY affects our DH, charter, airport standby, etc. The ever-vigilant Architecture immediately saw the evil intent behind this ?uncle? inspired maneuver to further destroy his IBT and rip away all vestiges of any sort of rest period for us defenseless pilots, and so he and his apparchiks have rained mud, despair and doom on this string for the past week or so.

Meanwhile, we(pilots) are putting our opinions and feelings made known on Yammer and will lead (hopefully) to a better policy that will lead to a better notification policy. My hope is reducing airport standby.

I?m sure someone will let everyone here know what happens when the dust settles.

Cheers,
WL

I have read the threads. I simply pose an idea that there are maybe more than one motive behind these decisions.

Do you think that the IBT and FO management are going to lock horns? Are they going to war over their contract? Is FJ going into position to cover FO trips in the event?

 

[Praetorian]

The "best" and only policy is no contact whatsoever during a 10 hour block of rest.

If we give them an inch on this one we will get screwed. Let's show Options that we don't need representation to stand our ground on this issue.

Leave us alone for 10 hours!

This is probably the most sensible thing I've seen you post. The problem is in order for you to collectively do anything you have to be organized. Is one of your pilots willing to stick his neck out without any protection to rally the troops against this BS? Is anyone willing to risk getting put under management's microscope to fight this? Remember you'd be taking money out of their pockets if you successfully opposed this, and that kinda makes them mad.

This issue is a microcosm of everything else. My guess is yammer is pretty quiet.

 

[Praetorian]

Do you think that the IBT and FO management are going to lock horns? Are they going to war over their contract? Is FJ going into position to cover FO trips in the event?

No dude this is about the money. If they can get you to ask "how high" when they say, "jump". Then they will increase operational efficiencies and make more money. That's what they do.

It's OK. Eight hours of rest should be plenty. They will hardly ever call :erm: and you'll feel better about everything because of the brand new trusting relationship you've formed with your family at Waterview.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Squawk: "Do you think that the IBT and FO management are going to lock horns? Are they going to war over their contract? Is FJ going into position to cover FO trips in the event?"

Are you making the announcement for a wildcat strike?

 

[squawk]

Squawk: "Do you think that the IBT and FO management are going to lock horns? Are they going to war over their contract? Is FJ going into position to cover FO trips in the event?"

Are you making the announcement for a wildcat strike?

No, I have a crystal ball.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

I hope it doesn't come to that. Last time we got close. It was the union leaders that were calling for patience during the last contract negotiation.

 

[warlord19]

el raton, I agree a 10hr no-call zone would be great…a 14 hr zone would be super….an 18hr zone would be sublime. However, I live in the real world and just hope fractional flying will remain a viable industry…there are no guarantees it will. I do know that if it is not efficient, it won’t last for long. If the +/- 2 hr call is made occasionally and as a kind of last resort to save the company an expensive DH or Charter, I simply have no problem with that (as long as some of the rules being kicked around are adopted for notification,etc). And if it has been a rough day of flying, I’ll simply let Dispatch know my phone will be off that night.

I realize a lot of folks out there think the no-call policy will be abused, but I am willing to give the new proposals (with some of the restrictions that are being proposed) a try. There were some major flaws in the previous policy, but it sounds like the DO and others are trying to address them. If it is abused on a regular basis, then we can do Plan B (whatever that may be). Most management reads this board regularly, and they know they’ve got to do this right ‘cause this is a serious and sensitive issue.

Now, since all you IBT apparchiks can see evil wherever it exists, let the mud fly….I just wish you could come up with some new stuff.

Cheers

 

[imacdog]

A 10 hour no-call zone isn't just a great idea, it's the law! Have some friggen self-respect and take the rest you need to do your job safely. Leave the managing to the managers and focus on your own job.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Cheers WL
I'm sure there is a lot of stories out there about our ancient history but I do remember the time I took off my tie and started to watch TV. Next thing I heard was the phone for my wakeup call and I was still in my uniform. I can laugh about it now. They just pushed us so hard, they got the union they deserved.
The grill is fired up and I have a cold one waiting for ya.

 

[jetwash]

One of my experiences with the duty issue at Flight Options in the past was after an early 4am wake up and then a release at 4pm to go to the hotel we were told to report on duty at 8:00 am for a flight the next day.
We went to the hotel, had dinner made some phone calls and went to sleep at 10:00 pm.

At 2:00 am we get a call for a early repo to be in position for a 5:00 am live leg.

When I question about our rest time I was told that it has been 10 hours since we were released to the hotel and that we were given our required rest and if we had a problem with it we can expect airlines to Cleveland to explain why we were not ready for duty.

Those days are now a thing of the past unfortunality the Flex pilots are now seeing one of the reason the pilots of Flight Options worked together to put an end to those games and black lists.

 

[slowtation capt]

What cracks me up and blows my mind is that all I hear on here from FlexJet pilots is how we at Flight Options are the ones bringing the industry down, etc....

However you guys are just willing to roll over and accept the company calling you an hour into your ten hour rest or two hours before the end of ten hours.

What's the point of a 10 hour rest period, if you are going to let the company call you during it. Whether it's 1 hr after the start or 2 hrs before the end or right in the middle of it.

Great way to bring down the industry.

 

[el raton]

el raton, I agree a 10hr no-call zone would be great?a 14 hr zone would be super?.an 18hr zone would be sublime. However, I live in the real world and just hope fractional flying will remain a viable industry?there are no guarantees it will. I do know that if it is not efficient, it won?t last for long. If the +/- 2 hr call is made occasionally and as a kind of last resort to save the company an expensive DH or Charter, I simply have no problem with that (as long as some of the rules being kicked around are adopted for notification,etc). And if it has been a rough day of flying, I?ll simply let Dispatch know my phone will be off that night.

I realize a lot of folks out there think the no-call policy will be abused, but I am willing to give the new proposals (with some of the restrictions that are being proposed) a try. There were some major flaws in the previous policy, but it sounds like the DO and others are trying to address them. If it is abused on a regular basis, then we can do Plan B (whatever that may be). Most management reads this board regularly, and they know they?ve got to do this right ?cause this is a serious and sensitive issue.

Now, since all you IBT apparchiks can see evil wherever it exists, let the mud fly?.I just wish you could come up with some new stuff.

Cheers

Do not let them touch our 10 hours. That's not asking too much even in the so-called "real world". I'm not asking for a 14-18 hour block, just 10 hours. They have 14 hours to use us and that's more than fair.

Do you hear what you're willing to concede to ops? Our mandated rest! This is on the same level of importance as flying broken airplanes...don't do it.