Flexjet Falls Short

[ProFracPilot]

Are you hawkered, cause both of you seem to have the same issue with SAFETY. Whats the problem?

Given your propensity for flamebaiting, I'd say you're the antithesis of safety. More like a pyromaniac.

At any rate, off to the ignore list you go. Good bye.

 

[mr brightside]

This is not Rick, just a fellow pilot.

There are lots of people here fighting for QOL. You are in the minority in the way that you go about it. Listening to you talk about professionalism is like listening to Jerry Springer give a lecture about integrity. Your profile refers to your Johnson. If you want changes, make a valid and professional presentation that someone can respect. Don't call a 20% raise a steaming pile. This is a top notch job and on May 1st it will get even better. If you don't agree, leave.

I would rather work 18 days a month with someone who enjoys what they do than sit with you for half of that. People like you will never be satisfied and the rest of us are sick of listening to you. If I were a perspective customer and I read anything on this website, I would buy my own plane and never get on a fractional. The attitude alone would make me run scared. Some of you even try and make it sound like maintenance is compromised, which is nonsense. To anyone reading this: These guys do not represent the vast majority of crews here. Unfortunately, the empty cans happen to rattle the loudest.

 

[netjetwife]

The BS version.........the empty cans happen to rattle the loudest.

My version.......The empty promises happen to rattle the loudest.

Given the number of cards that have been turned in, I think the empty promises
deserve the credit for waking up the pilots. To those who are confused by BS,
I suggest you sleep on it.
NJW

 

[Fozzy]

This is amazing how fast these company tools came out of the woodwork.
We now have many FamilyGuys. They are multiplying. I guess they figured they did not have enough of them on the boards last time, so now they are going to try overwhelming force.
I can only imagine what we are going to see once negiotations start at Flex and Options.

 

[Peter_Griffin]

Uuuuhhhh Whatever Rick....

Mr Brightside --

By the way no one cares if you are or aren't Rick -- it was a joke and a way of pointing out you are just a company stooge. Besides, apart from my disgust with his approval of the contract, I think Rick would show a few more stones and a much thicker skin than you could ever hope for.

Just who exactly is being unprofessional -- look in the mirror dude. You chose to attack Necros's profile instead of any one of a number of salient points raised by numerous people on this board. Then again it's kinda hard to challenge truth and accuracy isn't it?

In fact, one might say it's management's lack of truth and accuracy that has made them so vunerable right now. As for the stuff about prospective customers, you might be right -- time for management to get on the stick and shoot this puppy before it grows to be a rottweiler don't you think? I hope your fellow office boys listen to the one great point you might have...

You are obviously in the minority here. But then again being in the minority opinion of flex pilots in general didn't stop you to begin with. So if everyone follows your logic you should be the one to leave and stop posting. Now do you see how idiotic it is to start playing the my way or the highway game? Keep it coming guy, I'm off all day and can play as long as you want.

As for maintenance I do not recall anyone saying anything about it being compromised. In fact, the top notch equipment has been a reason many people have stated they want to stay and fight this thing out. Now who's making up BS?

This is a group of men (and at least one very tough lady I have no doubt could hog tie us pigs in any good fight) and if you can't be a man, you leave. Don't attack a man based on his admittedly juvenile but also admittedly funny use of intresting descriptors. That's just men dude -- get over it and move on. Are you sure you're not a fourth grader -- you sound like you don't know a lot about the real world. Honest question, really. Now I'm not saying you need to be like him, I'm just saying be a man and attack his point with something that matters. Now Necro I can see your wheels spinning -- leave that last one alone.

Don't worry about having to work with any of us for 18 days -- you office boys only get out for a few days every couple of months anyway. Another part of the problem... Don't get me started.

Yeah we'll see what we get in May when the company uses our unionizing efforts against us to claim they can no longer give us the raise because of federal regs (BS BS BS). Peferctly timed deceit. They are nothing if not clever little dudes. That or they will give it to us anyway with a statment like "our lawyers found a way to help us give this to you despite federal regs -- see you don't need a union, we're there for you" and try to stop the drive.

Now go give Daddy back the computer sweetheart, this is a place for real men (and one tough cookie wife) dear.

This is not Rick, just a fellow pilot.

There are lots of people here fighting for QOL. You are in the minority in the way that you go about it. Listening to you talk about professionalism is like listening to Jerry Springer give a lecture about integrity. Your profile refers to your Johnson. If you want changes, make a valid and professional presentation that someone can respect. Don't call a 20% raise a steaming pile. This is a top notch job and on May 1st it will get even better. If you don't agree, leave.

I would rather work 18 days a month with someone who enjoys what they do than sit with you for half of that. People like you will never be satisfied and the rest of us are sick of listening to you. If I were a perspective customer and I read anything on this website, I would buy my own plane and never get on a fractional. The attitude alone would make me run scared. Some of you even try and make it sound like maintenance is compromised, which is nonsense. To anyone reading this: These guys do not represent the vast majority of crews here. Unfortunately, the empty cans happen to rattle the loudest.

 

[mr brightside]

I don't think putting the company in a position to keep our raise is a wise one. Legal or not legal, we all know the pay will be frozen if there are enough union votes prior to May 1st. It would take years to get that money back in a court room. If you still want to continue with organized labor after May 1 (raise or no raise), there is nothing to stop you. Prior to their contract, Netjets pay had been frozen since the Clinton administration. At least wait until our pay goes up before you try to force the freeze. If we don't get a raise on May 1st, I'll be the first to sign up.

 

[netjetwife]

Mr. BS, if that were to happen--you being first in line to stand up for your rights--would you also be demanding Retro pay for the raise they would have unfairly withheld? After all, it has been promised before a union has been organized-- so the one has no bearing on the other. Prior commitments are allowed to be kept. Feeling as strongly as you do (taking you at your word, here) about holding the company to their word, I'm wondering where you stand on the broken promises the pilots have witnessed to date.

Just curious,
NJW

 

[Peter_Griffin]

Mr. BS, ....

NJW

Leave it to a woman to point out the obvious -- I don't know how I missed that one. He is full of BS. Good job Wife!

 

[netjetwife]

Thanks kind sir! I couldn't resist! Not that I would have wanted to anyway.
I firmly believe that ALL pilots should get what they have coming to them!

 

[Necromonger]

Just turned on the computer, and look who's back. It's Mr. BS.
Are you a first time long time? (If you have to ask...)

This is not Rick, just a fellow pilot.

There are lots of people here fighting for QOL. You are in the minority in the way that you go about it. Listening to you talk about professionalism is like listening to Jerry Springer give a lecture about integrity. Your profile refers to your Johnson. If you want changes, make a valid and professional presentation that someone can respect. Don't call a 20% raise a steaming pile. This is a top notch job and on May 1st it will get even better. If you don't agree, leave.

I would rather work 18 days a month with someone who enjoys what they do than sit with you for half of that. People like you will never be satisfied and the rest of us are sick of listening to you. If I were a perspective customer and I read anything on this website, I would buy my own plane and never get on a fractional. The attitude alone would make me run scared. Some of you even try and make it sound like maintenance is compromised, which is nonsense. To anyone reading this: These guys do not represent the vast majority of crews here. Unfortunately, the empty cans happen to rattle the loudest.

Is that all you've got? Attack my profile? How about my avatar? Should I change it to pink bunnies.

What ever, dude. Go back to the BB where you can hear the company song and dance. I see you've been drinking that company Kool-Aide.
Set down the cup, and open your eyes.

You don't like me... GREAT. You don't get my Humor...too bad :crying: I'M JUST ALL TORE UP.

We will fight to make this a better place, even for you.

I have work to do, and I don't have time to engage your CandyA$$ arguments.

But, I still need a hug

 

[ArtVandalay]

haha Necro! You're my hero dude! I'll give you a hug, uh wait a minute, that's kinda gay...

I think a union at Flex is inevitable now. There was so much song and dance at these meetings we had. I have never encountered so much un-preparedness and question dodging in my life at these meetings. Mr Gross is the D.O. and couldn't answer 1 out of the 10 questions asked at the meeting. They better hire about 100 of those Independence guys cause I think 80 F/O's are gonna quit now.

 

[flybeener1]

Most of you who work at Flex will recognize me by my screen name. No reason to hide behind false fronts. For those who don’t know me, I am an 8 year Challenger 300 Captain and have been the elected Chairman of the CAB (Crew Advisory Board) for five (5) years. During those years, working in conjunction with Flight Ops Management, we have accomplished many things to improve life here at Flexjet. Many of those things go unnoticed because of their size and inconsequential effect when compared to compensation and schedule. Regardless, they were all accomplished through the CAB. Unfortunately, when it comes to compensation and schedule our leverage is quite limited as previously posted on this website. Regardless of our leverage our management has agreed, in good faith, to work with us to resolve problems and issues that arise within the Flight Operations realm.

Right, wrong, or indifferent our new pay scale is what it is. It is a proposal that tries to balance schedule and pay while not compromising the company’s financial position. Some will argue that our company has deeper pockets and that this proposal is an insult to our professionalism. That’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it. Be that as it may, our company has proposed this not because of a union on its own doorstep but because the industry standard has been raised by our fellow competitors (also professionals) and because of their patients, everyone seems to be reaping the benefits.

I’m not here to defend our new compensation package or bash it for that matter. That is for you and your family to decide and what is right for you is exactly that, right for you. I am here to clarify some facts that keep popping up and are becoming distorted and are altering what has been proposed.

214.5 days per year is what the average crewmember worked last year. Although 221 days is what the salary structure is based on, the crewmember average was 214.5. I know you can’t work a half a day but when one crewmember works 15 days in a bid period and another works 16 days in that same bid period; they average 15.5 for that bid period. It’s just math. Some of you may have worked more and some may have worked less. Go back in your logbook, count the days that you had to be available for work and verify it for yourself.

The new average of 202 days per year is exactly that, an average. That means when all said and done, the pilot group will average 202 days per year of work. In laymen’s terms, 50% of the pilot group can work 183 days per year (NJ 7/7 schedule) and the other 50% can work 221 days per year (FJ current schedule). Regardless of how it is divided up the average must equate to 202 days per year. I know some of you will argue that it’s impossible to hold a 15 or a 16 day line now so “what’s the point?” The new crew levels, a lower total average of 202 days, and with a lower crewmember yield built into PBS will make it much easier to be awarded a lower than standard line, in theory. We have run tests and continue to run tests to prove this and it is holding true so far.

With that said our compensation is given in daily rates so you as a crewmember can balance pay and schedule to meet your needs. The original bid system that was developed by EF and I centered on this concept, it was our prime directive. Crewmembers who valued time off could sacrifice pay and work fewer days. Those who wanted the money could bid for more days and sacrifice days off. The two concepts balanced each other and provided some choice for us. Though not perfect, it seemed to fit because it was predictable. Since then the paper bids have been replaced by PBS and that choice has dwindled severely. QOL has suffered, schedule predictability has been reduced, and the only thing seniority is good for is vacation bidding and when you’re going to upgrade. Though important, these items are overshadowed by the day to day schedules we all receive. Again, the new numbers should help alleviate this.

After NJ published its tentative agreement, we had a CAB meeting to discuss specific items that we believed would be critical for management to include in their compensation package. The proposed system has encompassed some of the main issues that the CAB presented to Flight Operations management as areas of concern.

1. Less work for same pay. We (the CAB members) were all in agreement that NJ got a monster deal and though we would love to have the same we new it wouldn’t be practical. Some of you will argue that we should have asked for it anyways but again, management was working with us in good faith and we wanted to get something fair but reasonable. We asked for same pay for 15 day line. Our 15 day line is 195 days per year. Under our new daily rate structure:

• FO’s with 1-6 years of service can do this and still receive pay raises from 5.3% (1yr) to 7.5% (5&6yr).
• Learjet Captains with 3-10 years of service can do this with pay raises ranging from 1.2% (12yr) to 11.8 %( 5yr).
• Challenger Captains with 3-6 years of service can do this with pay raises ranging from 6.2% (3yr) to 9.1% (5yr).
• Challenger Captain with 12 years of service can do this with a .5% pay raise.
• Challenger captains with 7-11 years of service can do this but will lose on average $247 off their annual salary, not much but it’s still less.

Keep in mind that all these percentages and comparisons are based on the old pay scale using 221 days per year as compared to the new daily rates at 195 days per year.

Additionally, FO’s with 4-6 years of service, Learjet Captains with 3-6 years of service, and Challenger Captains with 4-6 years of service can bid down to a 14 day line (183 days per year) and still see pay raises between .3% (4yr FO) and 3.6% (4&5yr LJ Captain).

2. Seniority in Bidding. By changing the days worked from 221 to 202 and by lowering the crewmember yield, this will allow crewmembers to bid down to lower schedules (if they chose to do so) without taking a pay cut from today’s salary structure. As with any seniority system, the more junior you are, the less likely you are to receive your primary choices. You will never be forced to work more than 221 days per year though (current work rules). The difference will be that under our new pay scale, a Learjet Captain with 5 years of service will make $91, 273.00 as opposed to $72,046.00 under the previous pay scale. A First officer with 4 years of service will now make $53,703.00 as opposed to $44, 200.00 under the previous pay scale. These are just random examples and raises are not isolated to these specific positions.

 

[flybeener1]

Why have I posted this info? As much as I would love the CAB to take credit for the forth-coming changes, I can’t. I’m sure most of you will agree that it was the Net Jets TA that sparked the recent changes in fractional pilot’s salaries. I do want to point out though that our management invited us in good faith to discuss what changes we would like to see. Again, we went with fair and reasonable and as you can see we got pretty darn close to what we asked for. I know some of you will disagree and that’s o.k. If you feel it’s not appropriate for you and your family well then that’s your choice. You have options.

As for the May 1st roll out, everyone else at Flex gets one (1) raise a year on May 1. It was budgeted to start May 1. The pot of money management had to work with was already spent – If the new scales would have gone into effect Feb 1, less than a year since the last scale increase, the rates would have been a little lower to stay within budget. To start the scale on Feb 1 would have effectively given crewmembers three (3) pay increases in less than a year – May 1, 2005, anniversary date, and Feb. 1, 2006. A May 1, 2006 effective date allowed management to maximize new daily rates. Accept the reasoning or not, it’s your choice – but it is the truth.

Holiday pay was discussed but with only 7 holidays (New Years Day, Memorial Day, 4th of July, Labor Day, Columbus Day, Thanksgiving, and Christmas) in the year recognized nationally and by our company we decided that those resources would be better used towards salary and schedule.

The per diem and overtime rates have also been increased and seem to be accurate on this website.

As for answering your phone during rest, that’s up to you. It doesn’t happen to me very often and when it does – I don’t answer it if I’m tired. I still work here and my Chief Pilot has never called me into the office because of it.

I know some of you will be frustrated and disappointed about our new proposal regardless of what I have posted or what management has to say. That’s fine, it’s your choice. Like I’ve always said in my posts on the BB, you have to do what’s right for you and your family and the company you work for may not be able to give you what you need. This doesn’t mean that you have to take the “love it or leave it attitude”, you have options. Actions speak louder than words. Hope this clarifies some of the information for pilots other than the ones at Flexjet reading this thread.

I will not post the new pay rates on this website because it’s proprietary information. Flex employees can call the office for a copy.

beener

 

[XPGuy]

Hey, look at the bright side - your CAB set the level on pay higher, making the length to go to meet Net Jet's a little easier for the Union once it gets voted in.

 

[hatetoadmitit]

Well Said

Beener

 

[Hawkered]

Look for Flexjet management to "up the ante" on this one too!

I see a bidding war for staff coming your way soon!

 

[Peter_Griffin]

Some food for thought regarding Beener’s post….

Some food for thought regarding Beener’s post….

OK, I’ll bite. While this is a seasoned and thoughtful response, what is absolutely astounding to me is that after an entire week has gone by, it is a fellow pilot, not management, who has stepped in to give the company point of view, answer some questions and calm the storm. To date there has been NO RESPONSE from management despite several direct attempts from many pilots to get any information let alone specifics. We can post owner names, their holiday schedules other personal information on Bluebelly, but we can’t post accurate information that’s already part of the public domain?

While this part of my argument depends on your not being part of management, I think it’s only fair to state for the unknowing out there, that, you are a close as you can get to management without stepping over the line – as the CAB president you have access to info none of us will, you are a standards captain (a semi management position) and as an 8 year challenger captain you have a lot more to gain by the company keeping the status quo than not.

And I’m not trying to ruffle any of your feathers, I’m just trying to inform the uninformed, it is the talk of the line and on bluebelly, that a large portion of pilots (and fellow CAB members if I am not mistaken) are pretty unhappy with some of your work as president of the CAB and are actively seeking a change. Maybe you are on the pilots’ side, I’ll have to take your word on it, but that’s not the message I think most of us have.

I do really appreciate your response, but it angers me in a way because all just more smoke and mirrors and perpetuating the myths doesn’t help our position as a pilot group. Because it is so thoughtful, calm and reasoned, I am afraid that some poor schmo already at flex or about to sign on might take it as gospel truth when it isn’t. Heck, even I felt like I took a valium after reading it…

But I must trudge on, so let’s just get a reminder of the facts:

1.) Pre-announcement, in terms of hard year end salaries, we were the worst paid fractional (of the big 4). We also worked 40 more days than everyone else. Post announcement we are the 3rd worst, but only because FLOPS is trying to punish their guys for a union drive. All this despite being continually promised we would always be compensated above and beyond NJA.

2.) What pilots said was we wanted LESS days guaranteed. This was as important to a 1 year guy as to a 10 year guy. We didn’t say we wanted OT pay disguised as salary. We wanted to work the industry standard of 184. While I appreciate the “options” to a point, it’s not really an option for at least 50% of the workgroup is it? And since we can’t hire to even keep up with current attrition, I doubt it will really be an option for the top 50% either. Guess we’ll have to wait and see.

3.) OK, I got the whole 214.5 being an average anyway. It was just fun to point out they can’t speak in real numbers that mean anything to someone who’s not a bean counter. So the average crewmember got paid for 16.5 days. Let’s put it into perspective. We have 2 training events per year and a phantom 17 day guarantee. I say phantom because we only get paid for 16 during training months because it is in most cases impossible to schedule a 17 day line within the rules. So as a post 9-11 cost cutting excuses, they involuntarily cut our pay by a day twice a year, even though it their problem and had always just gave us the extra day before. Do the math (11 periods at 17 and 2 periods at 16) and that’s where you get your 16.5. To make it sounds as though some guys are already getting lower schedules is false advertising. By the way this is all averages, so it would take just a handful of guys working 14 or 15 days lines to drop the average down significantly. So, given this information and simple math, that means practically no one in the company is working less than 17 days in any given month based on COMPANY provided averages I know of very senior guys who constantly ask for 15 and 16 day lines and NEVER get them.

4.) PBS – when the MOST senior guy in a group asks for 1 specific day off and is willing to do anything for the company to get that day by dropping all the re4 after 6 etc. requirements and can’t get it there is a huge problem. Nothing in this company is based on seniority unless it’s the seniority of a$$ kissing that we’re talking about. There are hundreds of more stories like this guys.

5.) Benefits. By far the worst package in the industry. All this to the detriment of the families they claim to care so much about. Despite all the grumbling (and there was lots) this issue was not even touched. Enough said.

6.) OK, after 5 YEARS we finally got a raise in per diem. I’ll bet you my $6 we will be seeing changes in the crew meal program in the near future making this an overall loss for us not a raise in per diem.

7.) Holiday pay. Dude if it is only 7 days per year why not reward the people who are away from their families on those days? I would gladly give up the extra $100 a year I will see from this “grouping of resources” (I made up this number but bet I am not far off) to the guy who is willing to work it or is forced to. Since management gets to spend most of their holidays at home (or at the very least part of it) I don’t think they see the impact of this one. I know of an 8 year captain, with young kids no less, who has spent EVERY Christmas in a hotel. When management starts volunteering to work the holidays (Thanksgiving and Christmas in particular) out on the line for guys like this, I’ll shut-up. Until then they should pay up.

8.) Lack of transparency in the numbers. You are drinking some fine blue kool aid if you really believe the money isn’t there. Let’s be honest about how much extra ka-ching Bombardier gets from having us, let’s start accounting for those profits in these meetings that explain to us why the money isn’t there and let’s see where we get….

I could go on an on – maybe I will point out more in other posts, but the bottom line is this. You said we all have choices – how right you are. MY CHOICE WILL BE TO VOTE YES FOR A UNION and not leave with my tail between my legs cuz you tell me in a nice cozy way that’s the solution for my problem. And hey if you’re right in every thing you say, a mediator will stick to the company’s side during the bargaining process and I’ll be happy with that knowing it’s the only way to keep the company solvent. We’ll see. Once again, MY CHOICE WILL BE TO VOTE YES FOR A UNION. Hope yours is too.

 

[Heavy Set]

Most people on these boards would agree that Flexjet has the potential to be a career position but it is far from that at this point. Flexjet will continue to lose good people so long as it shows a lack of real progress toward shoring up the difference between the CS and NJA contracts and its own. FLOPS appears to be in a death spiral at the moment but Flexjet is edging forward.

IF keeping and attracting the best employees is truly a priority (and it should be because it can lead to lower costs in the end), then Flexjet needs to get serious quickly - or the union will influence the changes and employee morale (and customer service) will begin to tank...

 

[XPGuy]

What amazes me is that the company is too embarassed to put the pay scales out to the public - even beener wouldn't post them.

Net Jets and Citation shares proudly posted their pay rates for the world to see. You have to go to a company meeting and watch someone draw circles on napkins for 2 hours before they'll show you the pay scales.

The rates are a joke. Is it a raise? Sure. Is it industry-standard? Not by a long shot, nor does it address the many quality of life issues that FlexJet deals with - which some are even worse than Flight Options' issues.

This secret squirrel handshake pay raise stuff isn't going to stop the union from coming, but the raise will help the union to negitiate an industry-leading contract like they, like all of us fractional pilots deserve.

 

[vixin]

Well said heavy set,

Beener thanks for the post. Like PG said it is sad this had to come from you.

Peter I agree with your statements the most. Flex better come up with a bigger pie. Morale is at the lowest I have EVER seen it and it will get worse. It is an ebarrassment to be employed here. Their lies and deciet need to be stopped. They can massage the numbers all they want it still doesnt change the outcome.

They say they are hiring 55 more for staffing levels. They better increase that to 100 for those that are going to leave. Those that think they are going to upgrade because evals are being done to 2004 guys think again. They can stop as quick as they started. In order for someone with senority of 250 to upgrade we would need about 480 pilots. New hires dont let them entice you with the premise of quicker upgrades at FJ, thus you will end up making more. It aint going to happen unless everyone keeps leaving. Before we started upgrading we had guys here over 5 years as FO's, so be careful and get it in writing.

To pay the daily rates on NJ/CS would be in increase of 5.6 mil on top of the new pay rates. That is small in the grand scheme of things for Bombardier. But it would be huge for the employees of Flex. The ability to recruit has got to be a duanting task with what they have to give. If I had a choice between FJ,CS and NJ. FJ would be on the bottom of the list for sure.

While I understand what management has said, I diagree with them. They are deceitful to save a few bucks. They need to go back Bombardier and demand more. To be honest they are probably willing to give it, our management just wants to keep us in check. Lets go UNION you have my vote and just about everyone elses from what I have seen.