Flexjet Falls Short

[Guitar rocker]

If anything tool and frax, you owe wife and guitar an apology. You don't want a union fine, we'll have plenty of votes without you anyway. But don't try and steer people away from the truth just becuase you refuse to see it.

Good post Peter Griffin!

 

[FraxJockey]

Oh well

Shoot the messenger then. And Griffin the ADDITIONAL posts by DG were made on TUESDAY. Why should I appologize to Netjetwife? I just said there was some additional info on the COMPANY board and she goes off on me. Just posting info to inform the uninformed. And Necro sorry you couldn't understand what was posted, that's exactly why I said it would be hard to understand (for some). Sheesh

Frax

 

[Peter_Griffin]

Shoot the messenger then. And Griffin the ADDITIONAL posts by DG were made on TUESDAY. Why should I appologize to Netjetwife? I just said there was some additional info on the COMPANY board and she goes off on me. Just posting info to inform the uninformed. And Necro sorry you couldn't understand what was posted, that's exactly why I said it would be hard to understand (for some). Sheesh

Frax

Frax --

You are a moron and use half truths purposefully and manipulatively. The meeting and announcement was made at 9 am on 1/9/06.

The FIRST by DG post regarding the meeting agenda/topic nonspecific drivel bullet points were posted on Bluebelly on Saturday 1/14/06. Almost one full week after the announcement came out.

Then on TUESDAY, 1/17/06 (more than a full week) came the more specific post Necro was referring to regarding our lesson in averages which still did NOT contain any useful, relevant, specific or HELPFUL information.

So while you are correct in saying the announcement came out tuesday, you fail to mention it was the tuesday 1 WEEK later you manipulator.

What you are trying to do frax is take truthful information and twist it and manipulate it to fit your argument. You are trying to make it seem as though managament was right on top of this and look at the dates -- they most certainly were not.

Most pilots are still very upset about this lag and lack in communication. Glad to hear you're not one of them, but something tells me they could do nothing wrong in your eyes and pilts fighting for a union can do nothing right.

You should apologize to netjetwife and everyone else for lying and evading and just generally for being yourself. If you or any other pilot out there can prove what I have been saying all along is either incorrect or slanted, go for it dude. I know there are two sides to every story, but I am very careful to be honest with the facts and upfront with my with my position. You are the opposite. You will do anything to attack the argument or credibilty of any pro-union pilot. So attack me with reality and truth or STFU you moron.

 

[Peter_Griffin]

W,
Please look 2 posts above. Apparently, the answers are on the COMPANY web site. One employee says NO answers and another says the facts are there. I wonder which biased point of view you'll take? AGAIN, just because it's not what you want to HEAR, doesn't mean you have to lie about what you SEE. I am SURE your kids have taught you that-OR, maybe not.

P.S. This is fun-you?

Tool, please see the post above for answers to your post. One employee was being deceitful, one was not. At the time I wrote the post wife was refferring to, there were no answers. For that matter, the information frax jockey was referring to wasn't really an answer either.

You should take your own advice about hearing and seeing. You wanted to believe frax, so you did even though though the facts weren't there to back him up. Yet do a little research and you will see there are dozens of other flex pilots out there who back up what I am saying.

You are anti-union plain and simple. Fine. We get it.

Wife will take her apology now.

 

[miles otoole]

My humblest apologizes, NJW.

 

[Necromonger]

Showin' Frax some Love...not

Shoot the messenger then. And Griffin the ADDITIONAL posts by DG were made on TUESDAY. Why should I appologize to Netjetwife? I just said there was some additional info on the COMPANY board and she goes off on me. Just posting info to inform the uninformed. And Necro sorry you couldn't understand what was posted, that's exactly why I said it would be hard to understand (for some). Sheesh

Frax

Hhhmmm… Shoot the messenger? ..Couldn’t understand? Open your eyes, kid.

There is nothing hard to understand in that post. It is the same stuff we’ve been hearing. Except this time he’s talking down to your level. What? DG must think the pilot group is comprised of a bunch of uninformed idiots. Apparently, YOU bought into it.

Shoot the messenger? :uzi: YOU are no messenger. You come off as a cheap disciple of management.
You say your “just posting info to inform the uninformed” and
“Truthfully this is the first attempt I have seen by management to clear up some of the facts.”
I hope they can do better than this.

CAB’s meeting today. Yes, to see how these new work rules should be implemented. I hope they actually listen to what these guys have to say. (Unlike the past, when they were just pacified or ignored)

There is a new group on the rise……THEN, management will be forced to listen to US.
Just check YES, and mail your card in. You will loose nothing.

Come on Union Bashers, let’s hear from ya!

 

[FraxJockey]

Like I said...

:uzi: Shoot the messenger. I have no agenda just pointing out some info. Not saying it was good or bad, just saying it is there. Those who don't like or understand info just bash it...

Frax

 

[Peter_Griffin]

:uzi: Shoot the messenger. I have no agenda just pointing out some info. Not saying it was good or bad, just saying it is there. Those who don't like or understand info just bash it...

Frax

That's all you can say fraxboy? You are not pointing out info. You are spinning and evading. You are using half truths to jusify a position that you share with very few people. How can you possibly say you don't have an agenda when you are willing to mislead to get your "message" out?

I'm not bashing your "information" because lies and half truths are NOT "information" they are MISINFORMATION -- a common union busting tactic. Like I said before, your a self important a$$, recently upgraded, 3 type company stooge. Your are one of handful (like 10) of pilots for whom this annoncement benefited you completely and can obviously think only of yourself and not the pilot group as a whole. 'nough said.

 

[Club ORD FO]

Hey folks. I'm an independence guy and just got home from the job fair out in Dulles. NetJets and Flex were each interviewing hundreds of our guys (ongoing today I think) right across the hall from each other. NJ tunred me down for an interview last week after i spent 3 days filling in their damn application packet. They saw that my flight time in the last 12 months was low and said no thanks without asking why.

It was kinda funny seeing the two companies interviewing right across the hall. In the Flex room, us indy guys are sitting around the conference table laughing, drinking botteld water, and talking about the good ol' days while we wait for our names to be called. In the NJ room...they we talking a written test, and not looking to happy about it. hmmm... NJ also packed up and left at 5pm, while the Flex folks were truckin' past 7:30pm when I left.

So that kinda told me something about the two companies. I was offered a job at Flex and I took it, so I'll be joining you all soon. I know they have offered a lot of us jobs so I think you'll be getting a lot of good indy guys this spring. I do know that some turned the job down, most saying their were not willing to sign a trainging contract. (I don't have any PIC to get on with a major, so I'm gonna sit for a while no matter where I go).

I don't live in any of the bases so my #1 reason to go with NJ was the ability to be home based one day. But, I have accepted the job, and part of the reason was I see room for improvement in QOL at Flex. I figure I can get in now and offer my voice to help push for changes. Hopefully I'll see those changes before I hang myself living out in LA.

But, overall I am happy with my decision. from the outside it looks like a strong company with a lot of potential.

So.... I'm looking forward to it. I'm sure we'll make a good addition to your group. And if you know anything about our airlines history (saying NO to pay cuts to stay with UAL, hotstile takeover attemp by Mesa) we know how to put up a fight and do NOT give in easy.

 

[Majik]

Sorry that you didn't get an offer from NJA. You sound like a good addition and it's our loss. Good luck at Flex. I have friends there that are pushing for improvements and they will welcome your help. Good luck.

 

[FraxJockey]

Wtf?

That's all you can say fraxboy? You are not pointing out info. You are spinning and evading. You are using half truths to jusify a position that you share with very few people. How can you possibly say you don't have an agenda when you are willing to mislead to get your "message" out?

I'm not bashing your "information" because lies and half truths are NOT "information" they are MISINFORMATION -- a common union busting tactic. Like I said before, your a self important a$$, recently upgraded, 3 type company stooge. Your are one of handful (like 10) of pilots for whom this annoncement benefited you completely and can obviously think only of yourself and not the pilot group as a whole. 'nough said.

How can I mislead...the info is there, you be the judge. Spin it any way you want.

Club ORD FO - some of my best friends were at Indy / ACA, welcome abord.

Frax

 

[netjetwife]

My humblest apologizes, NJW.

What a surprise! Accepted in the spirit they are offered, MO.

A card for Peter---

http://www.bluemountain.com/view.pd?i=134649459&m=1932&rr=y&source=bma999

 

[japhy]

Frax --

You are a moron and use half truths purposefully and manipulatively. The meeting and announcement was made at 9 am on 1/9/06.

The FIRST by DG post regarding the meeting agenda/topic nonspecific drivel bullet points were posted on Bluebelly on Saturday 1/14/06. Almost one full week after the announcement came out.
.

The day after the last meeting.

 

[Flyingdog1]

NJW, you seem to know a bunch of crap so... How does NJ bleed money, then give a pay raise w/ signing bonus' then bleed more money stay in business?

 

[GuyBehindTheGuy]

Welcome to FlexJet, Club ORD! This really is a great place to work, contrary to what only a couple folks here on the board might suggest. I think you'll enjoy it! See you on the line.

 

[netjetwife]

Flyingdog, you can't be serious! Are you telling me that you have never heard of the "shell game" frequently played by corporations who wish to hide profits. It can be entirely legal, but impossible for a union to track. NJ America is just a piece of the international corporation whose stated goal was expansion. Profit from NJA was used to start and/or subsidize other NJs world wide. During negotiations they finally admitted as much, yet still refused to open those books. What does that tell you? NJA pilots have had the company built on their backs. To add insult to injury, their counterparts in Europe were better compensated than the very pilots who were subsidizing NJE.

 

[gunfyter]

NJW, you seem to know a bunch of crap so... How does NJ bleed money, then give a pay raise w/ signing bonus' then bleed more money stay in business?

Buffett said, "No-one's going to catch us. We've had dumb competitors in the past and they bleed. We've got more blood than they have."





​

We actually suggested to management that they increase pilot pay at NJ so high it would bankrupt our competitors... trying to keep up.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Fractional ownership is not a commodity business. People care about safety and service." [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Munger: "On the day another charter company's jet crashed [in bad weather] flying into Aspen, we wouldn't fly into Aspen. People remember that." [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Buffett: "It will be a long, long time before Executive Jet becomes a mature business. There's room to grow in Asia and Latin America. When it's mature, 5% after-tax margins is a reasonable guess, but we're so far away from that." [/FONT]

​

 

[gunfyter]

Our competitors believe they are in the aviation business. they are run by Aircraft manufacturers...

We are not in that business.

We are a BANK. We are run by Wall Street bankers... MONEY SCIENTISTS. The currency is flight time. The ATM's are produced by the OEM's aircraft manufacturers.

The MONEY SCIENTISTS calculate the cashflow in the same way using the same mathematical tools as an Electrical Engineer does current and impedance using Complex Variables and Differential Equations.


While we tend to think of money as an absolute, something real. It is not real, its just an idea. A variable in a money scientists set of equations.

What NJ is building is a giant network. Can you hear me Now? Like Verizons' cell network.

Its nice to have a cool phone ... but like the (VERIZON) commercial says... ITS THE NETWORK. Can You Hear me now?

Its nice to have some cool Jets. Most of the frax do.... BUT.... Its the NetWork

We've had Dumb Competitors in the past and they bleed. We've got more blood than they have....
​

 

[gunfyter]

OEM Aircraft manufacturers just want to sell their airplanes.

BRK and NJ want to dominate the world.

This is the difference.

Does this answer your question?

 

[Flyingdog1]

"The MONEY SCIENTISTS calculate the cashflow in the same way using the same mathematical tools as an Electrical Engineer does current and impedance using Complex Variables and Differential Equations.


While we tend to think of money as an absolute, something real. It is not real, its just an idea. A variable in a money scientists set of equations. "



You need to lay off your union koolaid dude. If you believe this babel you got screwed in your contract.

Why is American, Delta, United, US Air, NWA, ... all in a some state of bankruptcy, reduced wages, reduced schedule, furloughed pilots, lost retirement programs...? Did all their "Money Scientist" forget the magic formula? Did Southwest kidnap them all and put them in a secret lab?
Watch out for the black helicopters, they'll get ya!

 

[Peter_Griffin]

Frax -- you mislead becuase you make it sound like there is tons of relevant information and disclosure that don't exist. The guy says little more than "we had a meeting" and to you that suffices as full disclosure of a plan that is affecting 400 families?

Japhy -- If that is acceptable to you -- almost a whole weeks of crickets coming from waterview -- becuase the last meeting took place on a friday, there is nothing more I can say to you. BTW, they decided to have the last meeting at the last minute because so many people were clamoring they had no idea what was going on cuz they weren't available on Monday and Tuesday.

To all the Indy guys -- A big hearty welcome aboard! I have always said, given time and enough stones on the part of the pilot group to fight for for we deserve and flex will be the envy job of every pilot out there. I am happy to see management is living up to their promise of continuing to hire quality crews, but that still won't stop me from supporting the union drive.

To guybehindtheguy -- if you are referring to me in your post you are way off base. I have always said flex has great equipment and good people. If we can improve QOL issues, I'd be the happiest guy on the line. While I think we need to be fairly compensated in line with our peers, it has never been about the money for me. I stay because I do like it at flex and will fight for what needs to be changed.

 

[ArtVandalay]

Club ORD FO,

Welcome to Flexjet bro. This WILL be the place people envy to work at. It can only get better and it WILL get better. How many of you guys did they hire up there?

I'm with you Griffin, I like Flexjet and will fight for change cause I too believe in its future.

P.S. Griffin, I missed the Friday meeting last week.

 

[gunfyter]

You need to lay off your union koolaid dude. If you believe this babel you got screwed in your contract. !

You could probably use a little union koolade... Because I definitely did not get screwed in the contract.

Babel ... If you cannot see the parallels between the Fiat money system of Fractional Banking and Fractional aircraft ownership... aka FICTIONAL Aircraft ownership

Brush up on money and banking below

Mystery of Banking
http://www.mises.org/mysteryofbanking/mysteryofbanking.pdf

 

[FraxJockey]

?

Frax -- you mislead becuase you make it sound like there is tons of relevant information and disclosure that don't exist. The guy says little more than "we had a meeting" and to you that suffices as full disclosure of a plan that is affecting 400 families?

There were 3 posts about a page each(depends on your browser), not just a few lines of dribble. The first described the meeting and minutes, and the second two described the more confusing points....hardly "we just had a meeting". What do you want, a dissertation? If you have any questions why don't you call your supervisor and ask? If not, ask a fellow CAB member there are some good guys there and they would be willing to share. There is no lack of information, just have to look for it. If you were really concerned about "a plan that is affecting 400 families" you would have found the information by now, it is no government secret. Heck send me a PM with all your questions and I"LL ask.

Frax

 

[hammer2]

Our competitors believe they are in the aviation business. they are run by Aircraft manufacturers...

We are not in that business.

We are a BANK. We are run by Wall Street bankers... MONEY SCIENTISTS. The currency is flight time. The ATM's are produced by the OEM's aircraft manufacturers.

The MONEY SCIENTISTS calculate the cashflow in the same way using the same mathematical tools as an Electrical Engineer does current and impedance using Complex Variables and Differential Equations.


While we tend to think of money as an absolute, something real. It is not real, its just an idea. A variable in a money scientists set of equations.

What NJ is building is a giant network. Can you hear me Now? Like Verizons' cell network.

Its nice to have a cool phone ... but like the (VERIZON) commercial says... ITS THE NETWORK. Can You Hear me now?

Its nice to have some cool Jets. Most of the frax do.... BUT.... Its the NetWork

We've had Dumb Competitors in the past and they bleed. We've got more blood than they have....

​

[/quoteCan You Hear This, We're Making A Profit!!!
CL 300 rules!!

 

[Peter_Griffin]

We are just going to have to agree to disagree...

There were 3 posts about a page each(depends on your browser), not just a few lines of dribble. The first described the meeting and minutes, and the second two described the more confusing points....hardly "we just had a meeting". What do you want, a dissertation? If you have any questions why don't you call your supervisor and ask? If not, ask a fellow CAB member there are some good guys there and they would be willing to share. There is no lack of information, just have to look for it. If you were really concerned about "a plan that is affecting 400 families" you would have found the information by now, it is no government secret. Heck send me a PM with all your questions and I"LL ask.

Frax

Thanks for your concern Frax, but I already have the info -- and have for a long time. I never said I didn't (quite the opposite actually) -- just one more thing you assume because you don't take the time to research. I talked to a lot of people, including my acp and cab rep to get it. The point was I had to go look for it and work to get it. It should not have been so time consuming.

My point about DGs post was that while lengthy, they contained no relevant information other than "we had a meeting". If you needed to know the specifics of what what discussed regarding each bullet point, you had to either be at a meeting or call your acp. That is what I take issue with. We can post all kinds of VERY sensitive material on bluebelly, but not information reagarding this?

I think at the heart of it Fraxboy is that I am pro union and you are not. No matter what I say, even if it makes sense, you are going to fight it.

I am pro-flex therefore I am pro union. Why can't you get that?

Don't worry -- the union we ARE going to succeed in bringing to flex will still fight for your rights too!

I'll say it again, People who want to get things done find ways to get it done. People who don't find reasons why they can't. Until we force the issue, management will always keep finding reasons my friend.

 

[gunfyter]

Can You Hear This, We're Making A Profit!!!
CL 300 rules!!

Made a profit with a shrinking fleet?

Does that include the buybacks.... Cause I heard that those losses go on Bombardier's books... instead of Flexjets.

 

[FraxJockey]

We can post all kinds of VERY sensitive material on bluebelly, but not information reagarding this?

The second it gets posted someone airs it out here. Lovely way to disseminate info. I would be leary of posting it myself. But some of the sensitive info is not necessarily interesting to most people here.

I think at the heart of it Fraxboy is that I am pro union and you are not. No matter what I say, even if it makes sense, you are going to fight it.

I am pro-flex therefore I am pro union. Why can't you get that?

Don't worry -- the union we ARE going to succeed in bringing to flex will still fight for your rights too!

And therefore management and the company are evil and anything they say or do is to the detrement of the pilots... I'm not saying they are alterboys, but is seems to me that mostly ONE side is being posted here. I respect the fact that you feel strongly in your convictions, why can't can't you respect my opinion? The fact that you think I am pro company and THEREFORE anti-union shows how one sided your views are and you won't stop until I have come around. I just want people to see that there are two sides to this arguement and let them find out for themselves rather than being TOLD what to think.

Lets just agree to disagree.

Frax

 

[XPGuy]

People say what they mean here, Frax. Are you saying you don't say what you mean?

I think you are taking things personally. If what you say is true, that you are just showing the other side of an argument, then you shouldn't take it personal if "that side" is attacked with facts and reasons why "that side" is wrong... regardless of which side "that side" may be. The fact that you ARE taking it personal tells me that you ARE in fact not putting bias information out, but like everybody else, WHAT YOU MEAN.

It's o.k. to be pro-company, and/or anti-union (it is a misnomer that pro-union people are anti-company. Most are very pro-company). At least plant your feet on one side or the other, and defend it. What you're doing is wishy-washy.

 

[AeroBoy]

Can You Hear This, We're Making A Profit!!!

I'm sick and tired of hearing this unsubstantiated statement. (A) prove it and (B) tell me how much of a profit Flexjet made. How do we know for sure that this isn't PR bullsh*t being shoveled out by Flexjet management? SHOW ME THE MONEY!