Bird brain
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Flexjet Falls Short
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netjetwife
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They are waiting for the furor to die down. It's typical union busting tactics---drag it out as long as possible and hope that enough of the pilots will be so worn down that the vote will fail. The NJ pilots contract is currently big news in the frac industry. The more weeks that pass the less (they figure) pilots will be comparing their pay to NJ's. They want the whole thing to go away so that they can continue to overwork/underpay their pilots. The longer they keep your payraise in their pockets the greater chance they have of it staying there.
Sorry guys, I see their offer as placating--not progress. I didn't realize that y'all were working that many more days. I feel badly for all of you and your families. Families deserve (yes, I'm using that word) a balanced schedule, and those who choose (or are assigned) the reserve are paid extra for it. That is what is fair. Don't look at the yearly amount; it doesn't give the accurate picture. Figure out your daily rate and compare that to the frac standard--NJ/CS rate. When those figures are comparable, then begin comparing benefits and QOL issues. There is a new industry standard and the other frac pilots deserve--for my critics, I'll say it again---frac pilots deserve to receive like compensation packages for performing the same service. It is a cost of doing business and it's time to pay up!
Booing and hissing on the sidelines,
Netjetwife
Sorry guys, I see their offer as placating--not progress. I didn't realize that y'all were working that many more days. I feel badly for all of you and your families. Families deserve (yes, I'm using that word) a balanced schedule, and those who choose (or are assigned) the reserve are paid extra for it. That is what is fair. Don't look at the yearly amount; it doesn't give the accurate picture. Figure out your daily rate and compare that to the frac standard--NJ/CS rate. When those figures are comparable, then begin comparing benefits and QOL issues. There is a new industry standard and the other frac pilots deserve--for my critics, I'll say it again---frac pilots deserve to receive like compensation packages for performing the same service. It is a cost of doing business and it's time to pay up!
Booing and hissing on the sidelines,
Netjetwife
miles otoole
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Then why not 6 on 7 off? Isn't this better? If you have such a SU, why throw all the new hires under the bus by not giving them HBA? How would YOU feel if hubby were just leaving the military to work for NJA and you were FORCED to live where they told you to? Even the regional airlines don't abuse their new hires. Why not push Buffet for a Defined Benefits pension plan such as Citation and Bumardier? Are your boys not worth it? Why wait another 5 years? Do you really think this package is fair for FOs, CAs?
I hope I don't sound caustic, but if NJA were truly making money, why didn't you seek a pay package similar to what Delta had in 2001, i.e $250,000+ a year for CAs? I don't see how a 5,000 hour + CA who flies VERY high net worth individuals only makes 100K a year.
I hope I don't sound caustic, but if NJA were truly making money, why didn't you seek a pay package similar to what Delta had in 2001, i.e $250,000+ a year for CAs? I don't see how a 5,000 hour + CA who flies VERY high net worth individuals only makes 100K a year.
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Archie Bunker
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miles otoole said:
Miles,
You're comparing apples to oranges. Delta's payscale slides up or down (a lot) depending on what jet you fly (pax capacity of aircraft). A Delta Capt that made 250K+ a year back in 2001 was more than likely flying a 767 or a MD-11, carrying close to 300 passengers......in other words, a big ole wide body aircraft. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that NJA has anything remotely close to that size of aircraft. A more fair comparison would be to look at the BBJ payrates and compare them to Delta 737-800 rates. Since Delta mainline doesn't fly anything smaller than a 737-200 now, it's kind of tough, and not really fair to compare hourly rates to a Falcon, G-200, or an Ultra for that matter.
Your comment about a 5000 hr Capt making 100K has merit, but at least NJA's pilots are moving in the right direction, and their benefit package is really outstanding. I'm sure the pilots of NJA would like nothing better than to see one of the other fractionals raise the bar even further on pay and benefits.
Pilot's Wife
Active member
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Shouldn't union push wait till after May?
Interesting comments from all on here. I think all Flex people will say that the additional money would be nice. No one is debating that. However, flex pilots made it very clear through the CAB and BB and other venues that their main concern was QOL - especially amount of days worked per bid period. Whoever said on here that management/Bombardier figured out a pay raise would be cheaper than hiring enough pilots to meet a reduced schedule is likely right. For me, a key flaw is the figures that were presented at the meeting. Accuracy is key to credibility. Many of you on here have said you have never worked a 1/2 day in your life and their comparisons of pay based on 214 1/2 days ???? Pilots work pay has been based on 221 days for the last several years - all of a sudden it's 214 1/2 - who is getting that???? Does that mean that their goal of making the worked days per year of 202 is actually 208 1/2???
Many of you on here know that I have said several times that Flexjet has, by and large, been good to my family. I still believe that. When babies were being born, or illnesses were going on, my husband has always been able to call in and get home in time to participate. I feel that we earn enough money to get our needs met. The new healthcare offerred this year is awful. That already had employees upset, but this is worse. They didn't even give verbal or written answers to legitimate questions about QOL. I think pilots are at least owed that. If the company figured that more pay is better for it than less days worked for pilots - than admit it, explain it and move on. Don't leave your pilot's hanging with false promises, flawed figures, and no communication.
I know there is a BIG push for union now at Flex. I don't have any comments on that except I understand (possibly incorrectly - and tell me if I am) that at some point in the process of joining a union the company is required by law to freeze all wages and benefits until it is resolved. If this is true, don't you guys want to wait until after May to start this? At least get the raise first and then base all negotiations on numbers after these changes. It took NJ 4 years to work out its contract. I don't want our wages and benefits frozen here for that long while this is being worked out.
Interesting comments from all on here. I think all Flex people will say that the additional money would be nice. No one is debating that. However, flex pilots made it very clear through the CAB and BB and other venues that their main concern was QOL - especially amount of days worked per bid period. Whoever said on here that management/Bombardier figured out a pay raise would be cheaper than hiring enough pilots to meet a reduced schedule is likely right. For me, a key flaw is the figures that were presented at the meeting. Accuracy is key to credibility. Many of you on here have said you have never worked a 1/2 day in your life and their comparisons of pay based on 214 1/2 days ???? Pilots work pay has been based on 221 days for the last several years - all of a sudden it's 214 1/2 - who is getting that???? Does that mean that their goal of making the worked days per year of 202 is actually 208 1/2???
Many of you on here know that I have said several times that Flexjet has, by and large, been good to my family. I still believe that. When babies were being born, or illnesses were going on, my husband has always been able to call in and get home in time to participate. I feel that we earn enough money to get our needs met. The new healthcare offerred this year is awful. That already had employees upset, but this is worse. They didn't even give verbal or written answers to legitimate questions about QOL. I think pilots are at least owed that. If the company figured that more pay is better for it than less days worked for pilots - than admit it, explain it and move on. Don't leave your pilot's hanging with false promises, flawed figures, and no communication.
I know there is a BIG push for union now at Flex. I don't have any comments on that except I understand (possibly incorrectly - and tell me if I am) that at some point in the process of joining a union the company is required by law to freeze all wages and benefits until it is resolved. If this is true, don't you guys want to wait until after May to start this? At least get the raise first and then base all negotiations on numbers after these changes. It took NJ 4 years to work out its contract. I don't want our wages and benefits frozen here for that long while this is being worked out.
Kermit_D_Frog
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Looks like the delay tactic is working on you. Are you really who you say you are? For everyone else, a scheduled pay raise will not be frozen due to any law. This is just a potential ploy to keep us bickering. Look past it and think of your future. It won't take four years. Even if it did, what did you get during the last four years? A whole lot of flight time? More grey hair?Pilot's Wife said:
We are dealing with a similar situation at Flight Options and our Union drive. This is how it went down.
When Net Jets got their new contract ratified, and thus an immediate 30 to 50% raise from their current salaries, which put them around 20-30% above our salaries. Our company, Flight Options, said that they did not expect the Net Jets contract to ratify, nor any other fractional to match it., and that it was an unsustainable business model, and that Flight Options would NOT match it.Citation Shares matched that new salary + 1% within a week, which shot down Flight Options' philosophy in both aspects. That put our Union drive into high gear, and our mailbox was overfilling with cards.
In late November /early December, the Union made sure the company heard that we had 60% of our company's pilots' cards - the Teamsters wanted 65% for us to submit a petition to the National Mediation Board (NMB). The NMB only requires 35% - we already had more than enough to have a vote.
When the company heard that, they then announced through company meetings with pilots in our recurrent classes, that they were now "looking at a new compensation package". That was it. No details, but a complete reversal.
Just after Mid December rolled around, and the Union made sure the company heard that we had enough cards to petition the NMB (and then some), and would be doing so right after the first of the year and the holiday season was over. When the company heard that, and ONLY when the company heard that, did they then announce "a new industry-competititve compensation plan would be announced no later than JANUARY 31st".
The company KNEW that we would have already petitioned the NMB by then. It was what they thought, a win-win situation - they hoped that announcement would delay the Union from wanting to petition the NMB, and effectively stall the vote another 30 days, giving the company more time to make all kinds of promises to the pilots to try to sway support for the vote. During a union campaign, time is on the company's side, as they can communicate easier and more effectively than the union can, and the company can promise the moon to sway votes. On the other hand, if the union did petition anyways, they could then claim that they would love to give the pilots a raise, but now that the union interferred by calling a vote, that they had to "freeze" pay, and couldn't do it, making the union look bad and costing the pilots their much-needed raise. It didn't work, our pilots for the most part have seen through the plot.
Our union leaders have told us that this very threat was discussed with the best labor lawyers in the country, and that the lawyers told them that since the announcement of the raise was announced before the NMB was petitioned for a vote, that the company can in fact still give the raise announcement they teased the pilots with - they are NOT obligated to "freeze" and not give that.
The Flexjet pilots' situation is exactly the same thing. The company has now announced their raise plan. Should the Flexjet pilots have enough cards to petition the NMB, the company will in fact be frozen from making any changes, however since the changes in pay were already planned before the petition, they should still be able to implement it.
That is the understanding from the labor attorneys. Whether the management at either company agrees is a different story, and it is quite possible something that could end up in court, and a judge decides who is right.
Just thought I'd let you know that this issue has been addressed to lawyers, and that is what they said, and they should know a lot more than we do. We would expect the management of the companies to play the "we'd love to give you a raise but now we can't" card, because that's their job, to delay any raises, and keep the company's costs down, and if the pilots buy it and don't fight it, they save millions of dollars over the 90-day campaign.
It is a nasty battle, and unfortunately, it is our quality of life that is at stake. It's ugly, but it is management's fault that the battle is here - if we don't fight for ourselves, we know management won't do it, so we have no choice, and Net Jets' contract is proof of the end result of a good fight from the pilots - they won. Now it's our turn.
When Net Jets got their new contract ratified, and thus an immediate 30 to 50% raise from their current salaries, which put them around 20-30% above our salaries. Our company, Flight Options, said that they did not expect the Net Jets contract to ratify, nor any other fractional to match it., and that it was an unsustainable business model, and that Flight Options would NOT match it.Citation Shares matched that new salary + 1% within a week, which shot down Flight Options' philosophy in both aspects. That put our Union drive into high gear, and our mailbox was overfilling with cards.
In late November /early December, the Union made sure the company heard that we had 60% of our company's pilots' cards - the Teamsters wanted 65% for us to submit a petition to the National Mediation Board (NMB). The NMB only requires 35% - we already had more than enough to have a vote.
When the company heard that, they then announced through company meetings with pilots in our recurrent classes, that they were now "looking at a new compensation package". That was it. No details, but a complete reversal.
Just after Mid December rolled around, and the Union made sure the company heard that we had enough cards to petition the NMB (and then some), and would be doing so right after the first of the year and the holiday season was over. When the company heard that, and ONLY when the company heard that, did they then announce "a new industry-competititve compensation plan would be announced no later than JANUARY 31st".
The company KNEW that we would have already petitioned the NMB by then. It was what they thought, a win-win situation - they hoped that announcement would delay the Union from wanting to petition the NMB, and effectively stall the vote another 30 days, giving the company more time to make all kinds of promises to the pilots to try to sway support for the vote. During a union campaign, time is on the company's side, as they can communicate easier and more effectively than the union can, and the company can promise the moon to sway votes. On the other hand, if the union did petition anyways, they could then claim that they would love to give the pilots a raise, but now that the union interferred by calling a vote, that they had to "freeze" pay, and couldn't do it, making the union look bad and costing the pilots their much-needed raise. It didn't work, our pilots for the most part have seen through the plot.
Our union leaders have told us that this very threat was discussed with the best labor lawyers in the country, and that the lawyers told them that since the announcement of the raise was announced before the NMB was petitioned for a vote, that the company can in fact still give the raise announcement they teased the pilots with - they are NOT obligated to "freeze" and not give that.
The Flexjet pilots' situation is exactly the same thing. The company has now announced their raise plan. Should the Flexjet pilots have enough cards to petition the NMB, the company will in fact be frozen from making any changes, however since the changes in pay were already planned before the petition, they should still be able to implement it.
That is the understanding from the labor attorneys. Whether the management at either company agrees is a different story, and it is quite possible something that could end up in court, and a judge decides who is right.
Just thought I'd let you know that this issue has been addressed to lawyers, and that is what they said, and they should know a lot more than we do. We would expect the management of the companies to play the "we'd love to give you a raise but now we can't" card, because that's their job, to delay any raises, and keep the company's costs down, and if the pilots buy it and don't fight it, they save millions of dollars over the 90-day campaign.
It is a nasty battle, and unfortunately, it is our quality of life that is at stake. It's ugly, but it is management's fault that the battle is here - if we don't fight for ourselves, we know management won't do it, so we have no choice, and Net Jets' contract is proof of the end result of a good fight from the pilots - they won. Now it's our turn.
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Flexjet didnt fall short they never stepped upto the plate. This company lost a great opprotunity to improve employee management relations. Instead they just smacked us in the face and expected us to be happy about it. Thank you sir can I have another.
I for one will vote for a union and hope it comes soon. Management could have squashed that talk and they failed greatly. What a disappointment Flex has become and will be. I am working hard to get out like everyone I see on the road. You guys mention attrition was a concern well you just did NOTHING to stop it. Way to go Flex management!! Just when I thought you couldnt get any worse or be more cluless you prove me wrong. And to think I used to somewhat defend you. Not anymore this pilot is moving on.
I for one will vote for a union and hope it comes soon. Management could have squashed that talk and they failed greatly. What a disappointment Flex has become and will be. I am working hard to get out like everyone I see on the road. You guys mention attrition was a concern well you just did NOTHING to stop it. Way to go Flex management!! Just when I thought you couldnt get any worse or be more cluless you prove me wrong. And to think I used to somewhat defend you. Not anymore this pilot is moving on.
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twincessna
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Necromonger
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Hello PW.
Dear pilot’s wife,
I see you decided to come out and post again. Yes, Flex’s response was sub par to put it nicely. We can see that all families involved are concerned.
We can’t just sit around and wait for May to get things rolling. Are you part of the delay tactic? Do you really think we should just hang out for the next 90 days and hope we actually see these raises?
Let me put your post in perspective. It is great to hear from you, but where do you really stand? This is a previous post of yours back in Oct. of 2004. It has been shortened, but I’m just wondering if you still feel the same way.
What do you think of NJA’s union now? The push here has been going on for a while now. (Not just since the TA, as you can see) Don't plan on seeing your husband any more now than you did back then.
Heck, that card may have been put in there by me.
P.S. I’m not trying to slam ya… Just tryin’ to see where your coming from.
Dear pilot’s wife,
I see you decided to come out and post again. Yes, Flex’s response was sub par to put it nicely. We can see that all families involved are concerned.
We can’t just sit around and wait for May to get things rolling. Are you part of the delay tactic? Do you really think we should just hang out for the next 90 days and hope we actually see these raises?
Let me put your post in perspective. It is great to hear from you, but where do you really stand? This is a previous post of yours back in Oct. of 2004. It has been shortened, but I’m just wondering if you still feel the same way.
Pilot's Wife said:
Pilot's Wife said:
What do you think of NJA’s union now? The push here has been going on for a while now. (Not just since the TA, as you can see) Don't plan on seeing your husband any more now than you did back then.
Heck, that card may have been put in there by me.
P.S. I’m not trying to slam ya… Just tryin’ to see where your coming from.
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Pilot's Wife
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XP Guy,
Thanks for clarifying my question on unions and freeze of pay. That actually was the intent of my post. I'm sure you all know (as Necromonger has already pointed out) I have generally come out not in favor of unions. Before I had children I worked for a fortune 500 company that was "controlled" by the union workforce. As a salaried person, I came in early and worked until late. The union employees out in the shops came in at 6:30 and by 10:30 had completed their union mandated quota for the day and ate and talked the rest of the day - they made more money than me, had better benefits, worked less and were not college educated - that's my background with unions. I am not ignorant enough to know that all unions are the same, but that situation does explain my hesitancy to jump on the union bandwagon at the first time I am not happy with the job.
With that said, I do think the situation at Flex has become more complex and the events in the last few months may warrant me to rethink my views on unions. The biggest disappointment, other than the actual compensation offerred, is the lack of honesty by management. I've already talked about the 221 days versus the 214 1/2 day issue, but the fact that they are not informing the pilot pool as a whole on what they are offerring and WHY they did not address the REAL issue for Flex pilots. They have created an atmosphere of mistrust. If they couldn't get Bombardier to agree to a 14 or 15 day work schedule, then tell us - be honest. The non answers to pilot's very valid questions, speak volumes. And why are most Flex pilots needing to find out what their own company is offerring them, on a public website. The meeting was 2 days ago, and still nothing official. Vixin made an excellent point also in their reasons for making the changes effective in May. Their reasoning makes no sense - they should have said "we are waiting until May because we want to save every penny we can and if we say its because of training the pilots might believe us".
My concern in my first post was not intended to sway anyone away from a union. I just would like to get that raise first before Flexjet freezes everything, if that is the direction the pilot base wants to go - it would be nice for me to not have to shop for furniture at used furniture stores and to not have to wait in line at a packed county health department for shots for my children. A little extra money first would be nice.
I suppport my husband fully in his job and whatever he decides to do with union issues is fine with me. That is the main reason I still read this board. That way I can be better informed, thus making him better informed, since you all know it is difficult when you work 15 hour work days 6 days in a row and then come home for 3 days, of which, if you have families, you spend the whole time reaquainting yourself with them.
I hope this explains my position better.
Thanks for clarifying my question on unions and freeze of pay. That actually was the intent of my post. I'm sure you all know (as Necromonger has already pointed out) I have generally come out not in favor of unions. Before I had children I worked for a fortune 500 company that was "controlled" by the union workforce. As a salaried person, I came in early and worked until late. The union employees out in the shops came in at 6:30 and by 10:30 had completed their union mandated quota for the day and ate and talked the rest of the day - they made more money than me, had better benefits, worked less and were not college educated - that's my background with unions. I am not ignorant enough to know that all unions are the same, but that situation does explain my hesitancy to jump on the union bandwagon at the first time I am not happy with the job.
With that said, I do think the situation at Flex has become more complex and the events in the last few months may warrant me to rethink my views on unions. The biggest disappointment, other than the actual compensation offerred, is the lack of honesty by management. I've already talked about the 221 days versus the 214 1/2 day issue, but the fact that they are not informing the pilot pool as a whole on what they are offerring and WHY they did not address the REAL issue for Flex pilots. They have created an atmosphere of mistrust. If they couldn't get Bombardier to agree to a 14 or 15 day work schedule, then tell us - be honest. The non answers to pilot's very valid questions, speak volumes. And why are most Flex pilots needing to find out what their own company is offerring them, on a public website. The meeting was 2 days ago, and still nothing official. Vixin made an excellent point also in their reasons for making the changes effective in May. Their reasoning makes no sense - they should have said "we are waiting until May because we want to save every penny we can and if we say its because of training the pilots might believe us".
My concern in my first post was not intended to sway anyone away from a union. I just would like to get that raise first before Flexjet freezes everything, if that is the direction the pilot base wants to go - it would be nice for me to not have to shop for furniture at used furniture stores and to not have to wait in line at a packed county health department for shots for my children. A little extra money first would be nice.
I suppport my husband fully in his job and whatever he decides to do with union issues is fine with me. That is the main reason I still read this board. That way I can be better informed, thus making him better informed, since you all know it is difficult when you work 15 hour work days 6 days in a row and then come home for 3 days, of which, if you have families, you spend the whole time reaquainting yourself with them.
I hope this explains my position better.
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Archie Bunker
Queens, New York
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Archie Bunker said:
Jesus, I'm quoting myself......that's just wrong.
Miles,
RE: my above quote...........I took the liberty of looking up Delta's 737-800 payrates on May 1, 2001 for a 12 year Captain. The hourly rate was $224.80, which roughly equates to $189K a year for a 70 hour reserve guarantee guy. For an 80 hour line holder, you can up the ante to approx $216K a year.
Things have changed in the last 5 years. Our newest payrates, effective Dec 15, 2005 have lowered the compensation level significantly. That same Captain now makes $148.92 an hour, which comes out to about $125K a year for the 70 hour reserve guarantee pilot, or approx $143K a year for an 80 hour a month line holder. This doesn't even take into consideration all of our work rule changes (all in mgmt's favor), increased costs for medical/dental bennies, and the list goes on and on.
I would love to compare these rates to the current BBJ rates at NJA. I have a funny feeling that NJA's rates are much higher than our current rates at Delta, and may even compare to the old rates of 2001. BTW, NJA's benefit package is head and shoulders above what we have at Delta now.
Can some NJA pilot please post the BBJ payrates for a 12 year Capt?
I don't work at NJA but I do have a copy of their contract.
An 10-year Captain on a BBJ (class 5) makes:
$193,671 on the normal schedule, $229,851 on the flex schedule.
11 and 11+ years, they get a 2.5% raise annually or COLA, whichever is less.
There is a difference between Delta and NJA, dude. Net Jets has what, 3 BBJ's? So we're talking what, 15 to 20 pilots this applies to?
An 10-year Captain on a BBJ (class 5) makes:
$193,671 on the normal schedule, $229,851 on the flex schedule.
11 and 11+ years, they get a 2.5% raise annually or COLA, whichever is less.
There is a difference between Delta and NJA, dude. Net Jets has what, 3 BBJ's? So we're talking what, 15 to 20 pilots this applies to?
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realityman
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XP- Very accurate point. Only a dozen or so pilots make the BBJ wages. Furthermore, for the BBJ program, it's time as captain in type, not time with the company. So that means our highest paid guys are somewhere around 4th or 5 th year pay. No one is anywhere near 10th year pay on the BBJ. That's not to say they aren't making good money, just that for the time being, you're looking at the wrong end of the BBJ payscale.
And one more time for everyone: The current CBA at NJA did NOT take 4 years to negotiate!! How many times has this been said already? Our previous MEC was in bed with the company, and so was the head of our previous local, hence the first three years were basically wasted time. When you factor in the time it took to oust the old MEC and elect the new MEC plus time to start our own local run by, and dedicated solely to us, the actual time to negotiate our current CBA was only a little over 8 months. That's pretty darn good for an industry leading contract!
And one more time for everyone: The current CBA at NJA did NOT take 4 years to negotiate!! How many times has this been said already? Our previous MEC was in bed with the company, and so was the head of our previous local, hence the first three years were basically wasted time. When you factor in the time it took to oust the old MEC and elect the new MEC plus time to start our own local run by, and dedicated solely to us, the actual time to negotiate our current CBA was only a little over 8 months. That's pretty darn good for an industry leading contract!
Archie Bunker
Queens, New York
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XPGuy said:
XP,
Thanks for posting those payrates.
I realize that very few pilots at NJA fly the BBJ. All I was trying to do was compare payrates for a like sized aircraft, and not compare 767 or MD-11 pay at Delta to Falcon or Gulfstream rates at NJA. The average Delta Capt on the 737-800 now probably has at least 15 years with the company. Folks like myself that were hired in 2000 might see 737-800 Capt in another 10 to 15 years. Not what I had hoped for when I signed on with Delta almost 6 years ago.
It looks like the current payrates at NJA for the BBJ are very comparable to Delta's 2001 payrates for the 737-800. That is great.
Flyingdog1
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