Fallout from an age 60-Rule change

[sandman2122]

Maybe it's really the crabs affecting his logic......

BTW, he should cut back on the "canyon blue" koolaid.......it's staining his shirt.

 

[SWA/FO]

Dude, every SWA employees pay & QOL has gone up since 9/11/01.. All the other carriers (losing money) have cut pay and benefits. So when things get turned around, you don't think your unions going to look at the pay at other carriers? You know compare.... that sounds about right?

 

[canyonblue]

I think that the attitudes are on the other side. You are all back to 1993 and letting Southwest know that you are coming after us. Hello again Continental Lite, Metrojet, United Shuttle. We are hearing the same thing that was beat into Southwest 15 years ago, and the attitudes of the other pilots does not change a bit, in fact that attitude against Southwest, is what motivates many more than anything else, the fact that other pilots out there are still hoping we fail. Well, sorry if we disappoint you. If it seems that Southwest pilots have an "ego" on this board then great, why does that bother anyone? If that "ego" will be the downfall of Southwest then why let it bother you, after all it may be the very thing that helps ruin Southwest so let it catch on, and permeate the airline. I don't spend my time worrying about what a United or Continental pilot are thinking about, why care about what a Southwest pilot thinks. Does it really bother you that much if any Southwest pilot has an "ego"? Man if that is the biggest problem you face today, then you need more therapy than Flightinfo to help you with your problems with Southwest. Do the pilots at Southwest know this industry is tumultuous? Yes. Do the pilots at Southwest know that it could falter? Yes. Do we spend are time worrying about it? No. I go to work and do what’s best for my company and in turn I am doing what’s best for me. If the need arises to change what is best for the company then I will gladly do what is needed. The funny thing on this board is that many pilots are just like that friend that is in a miserable marriage. If you seem too happy with your marriage it makes them uncomfortable. They would rather you suffer with them, feel the real hate and anger that a bad marriage produces. Well, sorry if I'm happy. Misery loves company, no thanks, I think I like it here.

 

[jbDC9]

Southwest is currently one of few airlines making money. Southwest is currently holding the bar up, repeat, holding the bar up on the industry. We are holding the line, saving the profession....

you guys should hope we keep the pace. So lets review, airline making money, holding the bar up for the whole industry & saving the profession! The closest thing to bulletproof there is.......Heroes we are!!!!

Wow, this guy is a true American hero... can we nominate him for the Medal of Honor or something? Hold that bar up, don't drop it! Save the profession!

That must be some wicked good Kool-Aid they're passing out at SWA. And now, I feel like I need to go puke...

 

[SWAdude]

So let me get this straight.... Southwest is currently one of few airlines making money. Southwest is currently holding the bar up, repeat, holding the bar up on the industry. We are holding the line, saving the profession and you guys want us to give back our pay?

When DAL wanted UAL + 1% no one was saying "hey we should give back some money, because someday we might be in bankruptcy". Not one person. So now that a bunch of Legacy carriers are playing the low employee moral, cutbacks and bankruptcy game you guys want Southwest to play along? Well, guess what, we are making money, repet making money in this environment and we are not going to play that game.

When things get healthy again, you guys will base your negotiations off of our contract (if anyone could ever convert "trips to hourly" correctly), you guys should hope we keep the pace. So lets review, airline making money, holding the bar up for the whole industry & saving the profession! The closest thing to bulletproof there is.......Heroes we are!!!!

SWA/FO..

With all due respect,

Will you shut the f*ck up already!!!!

You are not doing anyone, any good.

 

[waitin]

What SWAdude said...

Chill already.

 

[Reebo]

So the minute all this happens (hope not).... I'll be the first in line to give back all my pay? What is the rational here? Employees of UAL & AA on didn't give back money on 9/12/01?

All I was trying to say is that things can change in an instant. I was just throwing out some unlikely situations that could harm WN's future. Benelli made a great post which I agree with. Enjoy life at WN, just don't think that it can't do a 180 in a very short period of time.

 

[SWAdude]

All I was trying to say is that things can change in an instant. I was just throwing out some unlikely situations that could harm WN's future. Benelli made a great post which I agree with. Enjoy life at WN, just don't think that it can't do a 180 in a very short period of time.

I have been hearing this for 12 years now.

9/11, recession, skyrocketing fuel prices....we can take quite the punch and keep going strong.

Give me an example of what it will take to make that sudden 180 that wouldn't also devastate the entire industry??

 

[canyonblue]

benelli,

Your post is your gut feelings, but posting it here really does not do much but have the peanut gallery chime in. Unfortunately, even though this post is more directed towards Southwest Pilots, there is no way to keep all the regulars from chiming in to provide their own "deep" thoughts. My advise to you is to submit your post to the Reporting Point, where it could reach a broader base of Southwest Pilots. There is no shortage of opinions in the Southwest pilot group, as you know, as well as many on this board. Unfortunately, like you said in your post, your opinions while flying at SWA from senior pilots, are greeted with the same velocity as on this board, a very happy Will you shut the f*ck up already!!!! With all due respect SWADude.

 

[FurloughedTwice]

Well said SWAdude!!

Short and to the point!!

 

[Junkflyer]

Hey they're heroes! We should kiss their feet whenever we see them. My God we are lucky to be in the same airport that our heroic SWA pilots fly in to. They even have a tv show! I think all pilots should donate 10 % of their wages to show our appreciation to our heroes.

 

[SWA/FO]

SWAdude, that is showing no respect at all. As a fellow union brother, I would expect a little more from you. I have made a few points and the comback is always: I can't believe they hired you, or every company has their 10%, you have a type rating etc....Point is you guys always like to attack me. Getting attacked from my own kind, now that is new low. Real nice there SWAdude I expect it from others.

So we have a 9 month FO asking me if Southwest is my first airline? We should be asking him why he went to UAL in the first place looks as if SWA was his second choice?

 

[sf260pilot]

To all of the SWA people on this thread: When was the last time Herb or GK lied to you about what was going on with the Airline? I would be very cautious to respond to a post from someone who thinks they know how to handle a potential problem at SWA based on what they did at their previous airline. The one thing that has kept SW profitable all of these years is its people. Period end of story. A large number of those people are reaching the termination point in their career. I hope the new pilots work a fraction as hard as the 59.9 guys that I know at SW. If everyone does what they can SWA will be fine.

 

[canyonblue]

To all of the SWA people on this thread: When was the last time Herb or GK lied to you about what was going on with the Airline? I would be very cautious to respond to a post from someone who thinks they know how to handle a potential problem at SWA based on what they did at their previous airline. The one thing that has kept SW profitable all of these years is its people. Period end of story. A large number of those people are reaching the termination point in their career. I hope the new pilots work a fraction as hard as the 59.9 guys that I know at SW. If everyone does what they can SWA will be fine.

Nice post. I agree what happens at other carriers does not instantly apply to Southwest. Senior pilots at Southwest, especially most Captains, WILL benefit from a change in age 60. But I still feel that it is because of those very same Captains that made choices in 1994, that I am employed at SWA.

 

[USMC319]

C'mon guys, let SWA/FO have his day in the sun. Many of us remember being in that position with our "bullet-proof" airlines in the past. You remember when seeing a Southwest palne taxi by and thinking...those poor bastards, I feel sorry for them? Well they haven't changed course since then, rather the rest of the industry has taken a dive and now most of us have had to start over or are working for much less. You remember our "big egos" when we were untouchable, so ease up on SWA/FO, let him be like the little dog that spins in circles and jumps up on you when you walk in the door. Its refreshing.

 

[SWAdude]

SWAdude, that is showing no respect at all. As a fellow union brother, I would expect a little more from you. I have made a few points and the comback is always: I can't believe they hired you, or every company has their 10%, you have a type rating etc....Point is you guys always like to attack me. Getting attacked from my own kind, now that is new low. Real nice there SWAdude I expect it from others.

So we have a 9 month FO asking me if Southwest is my first airline? We should be asking him why he went to UAL in the first place looks as if SWA was his second choice?

Don't throw that fellow union brother crap. If you cared about that you would refrain by making us all look bad. Whether you like it or not..

You represent every Southwest pilot with your remarks!!!

This board is shallow.

Humility is a virtue.

 

[SWA/FO]

This has nothing to do with ego... This has to do with "givebacks" that in my opinion are not going to happen, here. That's the short of it.

 

[canyonblue]

You remember when seeing a Southwest palne taxi by and thinking...those poor bastards, I feel sorry for them?

C'mon Dude. These were the comments directed at you then, and all of us still today. As far as many of the people on this board, who really cares what they think of us. Read a little more and find out.

 

[SWAdude]

This has nothing to do with ego... This has to do with "givebacks" that in my opinion are not going to happen, here. That's the short of it.

I wholeheartedly agree with that statement. We don't need to. Our price elasticity can support our profit margin without the hedges. Bottom line.

Don't believe me? Look at this analyst report on our pricing.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=66693

This paragraph alone sums it up:

"Competitors fares have increased to cover rapidly inflating fuel costs and have caused Southwest’s unit costs (or CASM) and unit revenue (or RASM) to become relatively lower than the competition. For example, from 2000 through 2Q 2002 Southwest’s unit costs averaged 40 percent below the major airline average, while unit revenue averaged 16 percent below. Over the past 24 months the relative level of Southwest’s unit costs has averaged 47 percent below the Majors, while unit revenues were 28 percent below. These huge unit cost and unit revenue gaps keep increasing, as the second quarter 2005 results show Southwest unit costs 65 percent below the major airline average and unit revenue 48 percent below. These gaps make Southwest more attractive to customers as Southwest fares fall further and further below other carriers. The increased unit cost gap is also interesting to investors as Southwest’s costs fall further below the competition, where industry CASM is now at an all time high pushing above 12 cents. Although fare adjustments relate directly to customer price sensitivity, which must be carefully watched, the fare “headroom” provided by competitors increasing fares allows a chance for Southwest to potentially pocket as much as $2 billion annually if it were to restore it’s historical relative fare gap of 16 percent below the competition (rather than the 28 percent below performance of the second quarter 2005)."

 

[koko nw]

So we have a 9 month FO asking me if Southwest is my first airline? We should be asking him why he went to UAL in the first place looks as if SWA was his second choice?[/quote]

Don't kid yourself, it was. Until 2001 SWA's was the choice BEHIND ALL the global full service airlines for folks in my position applying for a job.

MOST folks getting out in my time period applied for UAL,NWA,DAL,AA and CO. Some applied at Alaska because of proximity, people are salivating now for SWA's because your one of the few hiring.....in short your the flavor of the month.

Now I'm sure there are folks who wanted to pay for a type rating vs getting hired by any of the legacies who where hiring 50-100 folks a month 1997 -2000 but hey what ever floats your boat.

Me thinks you have a HUGE hard on for the legacies because some one didn't get one of the 1000's of jobs that was available and just happens to latch on to SWA.

As for benilli, it's our loss and YOUR gain at SWA's.

 

[chase]

Some thoughts from a casual observer...

I'm thankful (it is Thanksgiving right) for the senior pilots I fly with who have provided me & my family a great airline that has a wonderful tradition and culture. When FOs in the past were to be laid off due to airplane shortages, they reduced their flying to allow those junior to them continue to fly. When all trips only paid 1 TFP (yes regardless of the length) & jr guys were being stuck with the ELP-DAL or AMA-DAL turns, they negotiated the current TFP schedule; when there was no 401K retirement, a group fo 3 & 4 digit folks worked to get that changed; when the 94 contract was being worked they had choice, pay raises & little growth or options & further growth (others may respectfully disagree but in my mind I got hired because of this fact years before I would've without that happening) which allowed SWA to grow...yes my options are below water but I'd rather have underwater options & a great job vs my CA getting paid more (increased salaries vs. options in 94) & me not being here. I'd love to have more money but fretting over "what should've/might've been" isn't in my DNA.

I'm thankful for the 5 digit numbers & the junior folks who come here because they allow me to move up in seniority...I'm very thankful for that. But many of those 5 digit numbers are above me & have brought many good ideas to the company they have resulted in savings & great new ideas....all very good things. I'm thankful for those who helped get our new folks the 401K benefit shortly after arriving on property vs. 1 year wait for my group....attaboy, the young guys needed this benefit. I'm very thankful for the young guys who fly extra (I do also) that allows us to keep our pilot/airplane ratio down....the same goes for our 3-4 digit folks....I fly almost exclusively with 3-4 digit folks & the vast majority of them fly more than their line. I'm thankful for the new pilots who come in with great enthusiasm and desire to contribute in a way that is constructive. I'm grateful for the humility I see in so many of them as I meet them...keep that up, it will do you & the company well.

Benelli brings up some excellent points....Age 60 may have all of the effect you so clearly describe....it may not. We won't know until after it starts to happen. Will folks step up to fly more as they get older if asked to? We all have our own answers. The character of these individuals that I have come across strike me that if the call is made to help out, they will respond but I could be wrong. For many these senior folks are not persons one may have much contact with....I do...doesn't mean my opinion is anymore valid than anyone elses....the variables that could negatively impact our airline have been pointed out...these are strange times & anything is possible. I'm hopeful, not fearful that SWA will respond to whatever is thrown its way but every company has its limits....I'm not inclined to think of the worse case & be pessimistic, I'm more inclined to have faith our leadership (our management & the pilot group as a whole...we have many talented folks & many of them are junior folks doing great things...thanks!!) will steer us through these challenging times.

To those fellow SWA folks who have posted on here....my intent is not to disparage your observations or thoughts, it it has come across that way, my apologies....and thanks again Bernelli for starting it all....I'd also encourage a letter to the RP or on the union forum for even more stimulating debate. Thanks for listening to the drivel....

 

[canyonblue]

As usual, nice point chase.

Don't kid yourself, it was. Until 2001 SWA's was the choice BEHIND ALL the global full service airlines for folks in my position applying for a job.

Not everyone.

people are salivating now for SWA's because your one of the few hiring.....in short your the flavor of the month.

Not everyone. I would hope that the PD could weed out those. Unfortunately your post probably does more to solidify the fact of why they may be more stringent on furloughee's, even though I know some, and have written LOR's for them because they WOULD want to be here, and not back at their old carrier.

 

[El-Rushbo]

I am new to this board, but old to the profession. My 15+ years as a civilian have allowed me to see a lot. Some things I expected to see and other I thought I'd never. On thing that has shocked me to my core is the attitudes I have witnessed lately while reading some of these posts from SWA pilots.
I have never interviewed at SWA. Not that I avoided them, just life's path took me down other roads. I do have some friends there, friends that I still see and visit on occasion. Friends that I believe would also be shocked and embarrassed by these rants.
I have news for some of you SWA guys and gals posting here, your arrogance is starting to show. SWA was always the underdog and as such, maintained a certain amount of respect from other pilot groups, whether they were competitors or not, or would to admit to it. I for one have always admired the strong work ethic and desire to see the company succeed that many of you have shown. Well, it seems that times have changed. SWA is no longer the underdog, they are the BIG dog. And as with new found power and prestige, comes cockiness and thick-headedness.
Ever hear the term nouveau riche? If not, just look at the plethora of new celebrities who suddenly find themselves showered with money and praise, and subsequently become full of themselves. This is what I see happening to the SWA pilot group.
To the more humble members of SWA, please get these co-workers under some restraint. They are making what was once a fine pilot group look cheap, arrogant, and selfish. Things can and will turn for the worst. Anyone who believes otherwise hasn't been in this industry long enough. "Pride goeth before the fall." Good luck to SWA, I hope the ride lasts forever. But if it doesn't, wouldn't it be better to have maintained your humbleness, even during the good times? That way, at least, you won't have other gloating over you during harder times. This philosophy works well in your private life too. Good luck.

 

[El-Rushbo]

P.S.

Sorry to the MANY other GREAT SWA guys and gals here on this board if the above came across too strong. I just get a little chapped at the attitudes of some. I am sure they are the 10% that we all have to endure, but if not checked, can soon become a majority. Good luck to SWA and all of us in this business.

And, yes I am against moving the age 60 rule.

 

[chase]

El Rushbo

Your comments are well stated....WE all need to be reminded we're not bullet proof...those who forget that will follow the way of others who have failed. When the customer feels they aren't getting value in what they are paying for, customer service, fair price, safety & met expectations, then we'll fall by the wayside. Until then I hope all of us, those on here & who are yet to be hired here remember that while it is nice to be successful, it is no guarantee of future success....thanks for your observations & good luck to you in your career!!!

 

[Flopgut]

I have been hearing this for 12 years now.

9/11, recession, skyrocketing fuel prices....we can take quite the punch and keep going strong.

Give me an example of what it will take to make that sudden 180 that wouldn't also devastate the entire industry??

Never is about the things you can think of, its about what you can't think of.

One example for you though: a loss. Even a one cent loss in a quarter and Wall Street is going to be on you like a yard dog. Highly unionized, extremely high percentage of expenditure goes to labor, increasing exposure to high fuel costs, etc. Your fundamentals are changing. IMHO though, the worst thing you have to deal with is the fact that you've got some real duds working over there now. My neighbor (SWA) is telling me how each arrival at DEN is going to circle UAL's terminal on the first day back. First chink in the armour I think. Take a look, you've got SWA/FO in this thread talking about how SWA can "lose a ton of money" and everything will still be just fine?! He thinks he's a HERO!...Baby!

 

[canyonblue]

I am new to this board

I am old to this board, pre 9/11 and I can tell you that the constant barrage against Southwest has gotten worse, especially in the past 3 years or so. Before 9/11 when many of us came to this board to find "actual" interview gouge, you would never find the attacks from other airline pilots that you see now. Most were only here to get gouge about UAL, AA, DAL etc. and never had the time or bother, to even click on a Southwest oriented thread. But with furloughs and shutdowns in the past few years, this board has become more and more like a b!tchfest. With quotes like..................

"Because what I'm trying to do is show you that SWA does not operate in a vacuum"

"You have got to rein in your coworkers like SWA/FO (who is an idiot) and keep your airline between the ditches."

"the worst thing you have to deal with is the fact that you've got some real duds working over there now"

"I'm sure they kept all of their clothes on and didn't park it at a gas station either."

"A lot of you SWA guys have a real inferiority complex ... probably due to years of ribbing by the legacy guys for lowering the wage bar I assume."

I'm sure that many of the posters are the pride of their airline, and just post dribble here since they can't find a dog to kick. I would need a psychology degree to understand the reasoning behind the constant need to go out and find the latest SWA oriented thread and just add some unworthy piece of garbage, if only to make them feel better about themselves. There are many threads on this board that relate to CAL or JetBlue that I never even click on, why would I. But to some it seems that their day is not complete until they pointed out how bad it is at Southwest, or is going to be. Arrogance can also be masked by pride. I don't think you will find one Southwest pilot who wouldn't say that he loves working at Southwest. I don't know if that same statement would hold true at another airline, but there are a few. If some of the posters on a Southwest oriented thread come across as arrogant, you would have to go back a few years on this board and see where it really started, and it wasn't by us.

 

[SWA/FO]

Take a look, you've got SWA/FO in this thread talking about how SWA can "lose a ton of money" and everything will still be just fine?! He thinks he's a HERO!...Baby!

If you guys were fans of THE SWA/FO, you would know that the term "Hero" was meant to ba a joke. Since, that has gone over everyones head, I will spell it out for you. AS ALWAYS, from this day forward, when I claim "HERO STATUS" for something that is OBVIOUS not anything close to being a HERO you guys will, laugh and disregard.

Posted above you see someone has quoted me with: "SWA can "lose a ton of money" and everthing will still be just fine" Lets look back at what was really posted by me on this board, just the facts baby:

(THE SWA/FO) For paycuts, we would have to lose lots of money. I mean lots of cash. Name one healthy (airline) company that has asked and gotten paycuts from its employees? None, most were near or in bankruptcy for that to happen. We would have to be near bankruptcy for this topic to come up and I don't see that happening.

There are a lot of folks on this board that have a reading comprehension problems. Y'all need to slow down and read slowly, I don't think I'm better then y'all, just smarter.... (it was a joke...that last part was a joke...I was kidding) Lighten up Francis!

 

[SWA/FO]

[/quote]Me thinks you have a HUGE hard on for the legacies because some one didn't get one of the 1000's of jobs that was available and just happens to latch on to SWA.

As for benilli, it's our loss and YOUR gain at SWA's. [/quote]

Me thinks I had a hard on for stable employment. That was the focus of my job search. If I considered a company stable, I applied. See I worked for a corporate outfit that sold their airplanes, so me gots a taste of what it felt like to get the rug pulled out from underneath. I didn't like the way that felt, so my focus was on what I considered stable airline. You folks waiting to get out, have a lot more input from your unit then us civilian folks... I think, in my opinion more pressure to follow the status quo. If everyone in your unit, squadron, divison etc... doesn't like SWA chances are you will not either.

I think benilli is a big boy and doesn't need your help to defend himself. I think its benilli's gain that SWA hired him, knowing we were second choice.

 

[Chest Rockwell]

El Rushbo.... nicely stated.

SWA/FO.....I do not believe that SWA would have to loose one dime to be in a position to ask for consessions. At or near break-even would do it. Remember, we took a five-year pay freeze in '94 (during profitable times).