F9 still in play

[StopNTSing]

Your entire MEC was MIA on the day after. Our guys have the timeline. Our guys have the emails sent to your Pres and the other guy. Our guys have logs of telephone calls. Your guys freaked out at the last minute, not wanting it to end, then they went radio silence. This is no secret at SWA.

You line pilots got an interesting item inserted in your anus without being consulted. Right now, you could have SWA seniority numbers. Instead, you get to wonder about which city your "hometown airline" is going to call headquarters (hint: IND) and you get to plot with your buddies how long your Airbus job lasts, until it turns into an RJ job.

The nonsense you've been repeating about how the FAPA guys really tried in negotiations is absolute nonsense. We know it, the FAPA guys know it, the only one confused is you.

In my opinion, Stemmler made a previous deal with his new buddy, the CEO of Republic and sold your entire seniority list down the river. Did you see the newest article from Stemmler? In my opinion, one could thing Stemmler is Bedford's secret lover.

Now for the rest of you guys, keep Stemmler in power and let him hang out with CEOs and you'll be fine. Don't worry about having a seniority number worth $4.2 million dollars, that's not as big a deal as Stemmler hanging out in Manhattan with the cool people. You'll all be fine in IND.

Ouch! Bro, we've already got a major image problem around here & you're not helping the cause at all with tasteless posts like that.

 

[SWA/FO]

We are not adding positions in MKE, we are moving Denver positions to MKE.

So much for Domicile protection...

 

[GuppyWN]

Bottom line is that nobody knows for sure what's going to happen. Believe it when it's in the bank or sitting on the ramp.

Enough of this kicking them in the teeth and finding joy in the possibility that their DEN base and their Airbus may not be theirs for long. I hope that if the Bus goes to MKE it will be an overnight or a turn, not a base.

Let's try to collectively wish them well and get on down the road. If Gary Kelly decides to make another play we can deal with it then.

I'll be at the Double Tree in DEN next week if any F9 guys want a free beer.
Gup

 

[727C47]

Gup,you are a class act brother,no lie.

 

[MILPILOT17]

Bottom line is that nobody knows for sure what's going to happen. Believe it when it's in the bank or sitting on the ramp.

Enough of this kicking them in the teeth and finding joy in the possibility that their DEN base and their Airbus may not be theirs for long. I hope that if the Bus goes to MKE it will be an overnight or a turn, not a base.

Let's try to collectively wish them well and get on down the road. If Gary Kelly decides to make another play we can deal with it then.

I'll be at the Double Tree in DEN next week if any F9 guys want a free beer.
Gup

We have a winner!!!

 

[MILPILOT17]

Gup,you are a class act brother,no lie.

Another winner!

 

[N1atEcon]

No one on the SWAPA M&A Committee contacted the FAPA M&A guys on Thursday. There was zero communication between the two committees on Thursday. I keep reading that FAPA left SWAPA hanging or some other line of BS. Sorry, it didn't happen.

You my friend are correct, there was no communication because FAPA didn't want to communicate. Were you there? What was FAPA's timeline of negotiations? You keep wondering why everyone thinks Stemmler and the boy's had a secret handshake with RAH. Well here is an excerpt from just one of our communications from SWAPA. This is why we feel most of the Frontier/Lynx pilots got screwed.

This starts on Wed night:

After our M&A team was in the air headed to DAL FAPA informed SWAPA that their complete team would be unable to get to DAL due to members spread around the country and thus they would not be traveling to DAL. We immediately began setting up a video/audio forum for bargaining still set to begin at 1700 CDT. SWAPA was ready to go at 1700. Just prior to 1700 we were advised that FAPA would not be ready due to their President being unavailable due to his participation in meetings in NY as a member of the unsecured creditors committee. Rather than begin negotiations with the FAPA M&A team, FAPA chose to delay the beginning of bargaining until 1930 CDT until their President was available. We had a deadline of midnight EDT to reach an agreement. So we were down to 3 ½ hours of bargaining time to reach a deal. These type negotiations typically take weeks if not months to conclude. The two M&A teams exchanged several proposals and approaching midnight EDT we concluded our meeting without agreement and agreed to talk on Thursday morning to continue bargaining during the auction process. SWAPA reached out several times on Thursday to FAPA but we never heard back from their team to continue bargaining.

Let's not forget the preposterous demands by FAPA. Here is one that comes to mind:
$3000.00 a month furlough pay, forever! Give me a break. And that was just one of their items.

 

[Victor120]

SWA Dude's, knock it off- we do have an image problem and pounding Frontier guys (several of my friends) about their decision isn't cool.

 

[airlinepilot]

Don't see how setting the record straight is pounding F9 guys

 

[SWA/FO]

The pounding was done by their own.... FAPA pounded their own.

Gup you never told them what day you would be there! I for one hate Denver overnights, they can have that whole place, I would have given them domicile protection forever!

But not $3000 a month for furloughees, sorry FAPA you *ucked up.

 

[shearedshaft]

I guess you guys are right, we should stop with the "pounding". The only stuff I know is what SWAPA put out after the whole deal went down and their timeline (part of which someone posted here) sounds very believable.

When I read, "No one on the SWAPA M&A committee contacted FAPA on Thursday", it sounds like somebody is making up a new history. Unless our M&A guys are lying, which I doubt, it's my opinion that someone over at FAPA is telling the regular Joes some tales.

Then again, I've never even met any of our M&A guys, maybe they aren't being truthful with all of the communication they put out. But the email updates I got sure look believable.

It really comes down to a glass is half-empty/glass is half-full look.

Was the TA negotiated with Frontier and RAH prior to the auction a good thing or bad? I would view it as bad, since it was a done deal prior to even talking to the SWAPA guys. Perhaps Frontier guys would view it as good, since it was a known quantity.

Was walking away from talks good or bad? I say "bad", because I know the value of a stable career. But I'm not a senior Frontier captain who would have to start over.

So I'll take my other SWAPA poster's advice and drop this whole thing. I doubt anyone is not familiar with where I stand.

I am also running the risk of repeating information about things where I wasn't present and only got a union update after the fact, lord knows if things would have looked different from someone who was actually there. Union updates are often scrubbed, so maybe there's more to the story.

 

[Daddy]

For the record, stapling IS a form of seniority list integration and the offer was a staple WITH pay protection. I'm done with this...good luck with Republic

 

[OpenClimb]

Pay protection does no good if you're furloughed. What never seems to make the news is that Southwest was planning to furlough 2/3rds of the F9 pilot group.

SWA's own numbers suggest that their airline is 5-7% overstaffed. (300-350 pilots) SWA was only taking 80% of the F9 aircraft. 20% of F9's remaining 640 pilots = 128 pilots. 128 + 300 = 428 pilots overstaffed. 428/640 = ~2/3rds. Furlough fodder. That's what it's called.

Also, since all of you folks seem to be so "in the know..." Isn't it true that the SWAPA folks had technical difficulties with their whiz-bang teleconferencing gear and THAT delayed the start of the meeting...?

Isn't it also true that SWA changed the time for its plan presentation from first thing in the morning until ~3:30pm? Even if FAPA was comfortable proceding with SLI discussions without its President present, wouldn't it have been difficult to negotiate without knowing that SWA was only planning on buying 80% of the fleet. Doesn't that seem like relevant information?

Only time will tell whether the F9 group made the right decision. I don't know and the collective "you" of Flightinfo don't know. So stop pretending like you do and move on.

As others have said. We just drive the bus when and where they tell us.

 

[kwick]

If you start with a ridiculous staple proposal, why are you surprised by the response?

You guys gave up a dominant Denver hub, international routes, and access to new markets like DCA and ATl.

All you had to do was weave 600 guys into a 6000 pilot seniority list. DOH or relative seniority with fences.

Since Frontier brought the planes and routes to the merger, you guys essentially had to give up nothing.

I'd be mad if I passed up on that opportunity too.

 

[SWA/FO]

I know! You guys got F9'ed by your union!

 

[tathagatha]

In reality, the SWAPA negotiators only had authority for a staple. Anything else would have required a vote, and that takes time. In this case, it was staple or nothing within the time constraints. Up or Down?, down is fine.

GL,
T

 

[walkthasky]

come on...

If you start with a ridiculous staple proposal, why are you surprised by the response?

You guys gave up a dominant Denver hub, international routes, and access to new markets like DCA and ATl.

All you had to do was weave 600 guys into a 6000 pilot seniority list. DOH or relative seniority with fences.

Since Frontier brought the planes and routes to the merger, you guys essentially had to give up nothing.

I'd be mad if I passed up on that opportunity too.

Ridiculous ? I don't think so. SWA didn't give up anything. They made a bid and it did not work out. All we had to do was weave 600 guys into a 6000 pilot list....oh yeah that makes sense. Weaving a list of pilots from a bankrupt carrier that started in mid 90's putting there number one guy behind someone hired at SWA in the 70's, and not to mention the 70% plus raise he'd get....yeah thats all . Oh and put some of our guys in jeopardy of furlough. We ain't mad dude, get over it, all is well, and we all wish F9 the best. Stop stirring the pot!

 

[tzskipper]

Ridiculous ? I don't think so. SWA didn't give up anything. They made a bid and it did not work out. All we had to do was weave 600 guys into a 6000 pilot list....oh yeah that makes sense. Weaving a list of pilots from a bankrupt carrier that started in mid 90's putting there number one guy behind someone hired at SWA in the 70's, and not to mention the 70% plus raise he'd get....yeah thats all . Oh and put some of our guys in jeopardy of furlough. We ain't mad dude, get over it, all is well, and we all wish F9 the best. Stop stirring the pot!

Imo, the fair thing would have been to put the number one F9 pilot one number junior to the SWA pilot with the closest, earlier date of hire. It would be from that point down that "relative seniority" should have applied, including a domicile fence and seat fence.

Skipper

 

[StaySeated]

This is now the second time I will ask you for the source of your "easily verifiable" facts. SWAPA distributed their event summary of those two days. If FAPA has done the same, I have yet to see anyone post it here. Even though it is all just water under the bridge at this point, I would genuinely like to know if I have been lied to by my union.

I didn't see the first time, and your question is a reasonable one.

If SWAPA is stating that they contacted anyone on the FAPA M&A committee on Thursday, then yes they are lying. It didn't happen.

N1atecon - I have read all of the updates. The one that you reference only tells half of the story, actually less than half. Regarding the furlough compensation item, it was going to cost every active pilot less than .80 per hour of credit and it was a negotiable item just like every other item on the proposal. I thought that SWAPA was highly regarded for "looking out for their own" and as you and every other supposed SWAPA member on this board has stated numerous times "every FAPA member was going to have recall rights" and "every FAPA member was going to have a SWAPA number from day one". Is .80 per hour too much to ask for a fellow SWAPA member? Or did we have a different opinion of the "excess FAPA pilots"?

SWAPA is doing exactly what they should be doing, telling the membership their version of events. You need to read the "updates" and take note of what they don't say. Several readers are connecting dots that just don't exist.

Take a look at the "summary of those two days" from a different perspective. SWAPA ended the meeting on Wednesday and requested everyone to meet in Dallas the next day, unfortunately around 2pm MST the next day SWA removed their bid. Several SWAPA members wanted this deal, especially the junior guys. Who would YOU rather blame, FAPA or your own company?

Take a further step back and consider the following. Your FO's blew up the last TA. Your FO's have the most to lose from the failed F9 acquisition. If your FO's realize that they have been led down the wrong path for the third time in less than a year, they will go absolutely ballistic. If you are looking down the barrel of a furlough, and your company just failed to purchase a furlough safety net, then your just adding fuel to the fire, never mind the fact that the only leverage you had with your ongoing negotiations just got acquired by a competitor. How many millions of dollars have been taken out of the company's position since the failed TA ratification? SWAPA is in the middle of the greatest PR campaign in recent history. I commend them for their efforts, and I would do the same exact thing in their position.

I really have had an interest in "setting the record straight", but I am losing that interest at a rapid rate.

If you want to believe that FAPA walked away, than so be it. Don't care. If you want to believe that FAPA presented a "take it or leave it offer", then you are welcome to live in that fantasy world.

What I know or what you believe really doesn't matter. I wish you all the best regardless.

And Gup, you owe me several beers. PM me your schedule.

I am going to save my energy for the inevitable "FAPA vs RAH/IBT/YX/ALPA/Globalwarming/PETA" battle that I am sure is going to fire up any day now.

 

[FlickerFade]

It's funny really, there is no national airline union. We are all a loosely aligned group of individuals who make up airline seniority lists (and individual MEC's).

Any semblance of national unity is exposed as fraudulent when mergers are considered.

Outside of matters of safety and political lobbying there is no solidarity.

 

[StaySeated]

Imo, the fair thing would have been to put the number one F9 pilot one number junior to the SWA pilot with the closest, earlier date of hire. It would be from that point down that "relative seniority" should have applied, including a domicile fence and seat fence.

Skipper

Actually, the most reasonable agreement was very close to this, only better for the SWAPA guys.

Plug #1 FAPA in the SWAPA list at his DOH.

Ratio the rest of the FAPA list in at 11 to 1.

Domicile protect the FAPA guys that wanted to stay in Denver, giving them one chance to decide.

Protect upgrades for every SWAPA FO (last guy on the list, what is his name again?, triggers the upgrade for FAPA llist)

Too bad we never met on Thursday. Had SWAPA presented something closer to what Karl alluded too on Wednesday morning then this might have been the first proposal from FAPA. We will never know.

 

[scoreboardII]

DOH and 11:1.

This is what they mean when they say "Rocky Mountain High"...

 

[Lear70]

It's funny really, there is no national airline union. We are all a loosely aligned group of individuals who make up airline seniority lists (and individual MEC's).

Any semblance of national unity is exposed as fraudulent when mergers are considered.

Outside of matters of safety and political lobbying there is no solidarity.

This bears repeating...

Until we all are willing to make some sacrifices in the interest of solidarity, nothing will change.

The rest of this thread is pretty much useless at this point...

 

[climb2slow]

That's okay, I think that we have all learned some things about the 'real' Southwest culture. Something that many of us were unaware of except for those who have been close to it before (ATA). I have many friends at SWA, but this whole goat rope has been much more of a black eye to them than to us. Personally, being stapled to their list, and then spend the next 5 years on furlough so they could 'protect their own' is not exactly something I cared for. And pay protection? Not much good when you are furloughed. The $3000 a month that FAPA is referenced to asking for, related to the additional 130 furloughs that would have been directly caused by the SWA deal, not just something they were seeking for the 59 currently furloughed.

 

[redflyer65]

What are they getting now on furlough?

 

[airlinepilot]

SWA has never put anyone on furlough but I don't think anyone would get anything in the form or pay or health care other than the offer of Cobra. Is there any pilot contract that pays for guys/gals on furlough???

 

[climb2slow]

What are they getting now on furlough?

They aren't furloughed now. And although that may or may not happen with republic, at least they were immediately furloughed as they would have been under the SWA deal.

 

[climb2slow]

SWA has never put anyone on furlough but I don't think anyone would get anything in the form or pay or health care other than the offer of Cobra. Is there any pilot contract that pays for guys/gals on furlough???

And, thanks to SWA withdrawing their bid, they still havn't put anyone on furlough. It was a negotiating point with the unions to offset the SWA purchase of only 80% of F9. Like it or not, it would have let to furloughs. But relax...the mightly Southwest can still say they have not caused any furloughs.

 

[firstthird]

....
Several SWAPA members wanted this deal, especially the junior guys. Who would YOU rather blame, FAPA or your own company?
...

I admire your effort to 'set the record straight' but I take exception to you calling our M&A committee liars.

your above statement is ridiculous. very few at SWAPA are looking for someone to blame. more than one guy has said that no member of the M&A committee will be buying beers for a long time.

SWAPA got huge cred with its members for this whole deal.

but if you look at it from the outside, SWAPA has no incentive to lie about this. they had FOs and CAs involved, not just the union president and a few senior guys who had a 'secret TA' with RAH in their back pocket.

I'm very happy that SWA and F9 didn't merge and almost every FO and most captains feel the same that I've talked with. Herb and Colleen both said 'never again' after the Morris acquisition. We as a company seem to have forgotten that.

I hope that F9 works out for you but you'd be better off to stop calling our union leaders liars. They kept us, the SWAPA pilots, in the loop and up to date during the whole affair. Did FAPA do that for you guys? who has more reason to hide? I don't know and don't care but I do know that is ticks me off to see you call our union liars.

We're happy that it didn't go down, at least I am. If you are too, then great, we're all happy. You'll notice that I'm not calling your FAPA guys liars. no one seems to post any of the communications you get. fine by me but you guys sitting on your secret communiques while pretty much every SWAPA missive has been put on this forum, lord knows why, tells me that we aren't the ones hiding something. if anything the guys posting our internal emails oughta be hiding more. We have nothing to prove and neither do you. it is what it is.

and don't say 'get over it, you guys didn't get us.' Nowhere in this post did I say I wanted this to happen. I don't think the majority at SWAPA did either. The managements threw us together, we didn't come to an agreement, the deal fell through. end of story. unless someone gets on here and defames our union by saying they are lying, which you are doing.

 

[airlinepilot]

Everyone got what they wanted!