ExpressJet Pilots Reach Tentative Agreement

[Best on a Camel]

GO TO THE ROADSHOW.

My Negotiating Committee speaks for me!

 

[nonstop]

GO TO THE ROADSHOW.

My Negotiating Committee speaks for me!

Right on! They speak for me too! And they're about to go back to the table to speak for me some more!

 

[Sphincter Boy]

Right on! They speak for me too! And they're about to go back to the table to speak for me some more!

Couldn't have said it better myself....that was funny

 

[Best on a Camel]

Hopefully they won't be because I am voting YES. Industry leading contract in this enviornment? You would be nuts not to!

 

[Lear70]

Ummm... I'm confused. How is this an "industry-leading" contract? It's less than Comair in nearly every arena, is about identical to Mesaba's which was signed last year (except your new F/O rates are lower as is your min day and rest provisions), and in many ways it's even worse than ours at PCL which I view as "middle of the road" (your pay rates are about $2 an hour, or 3% higher than ours year for year).

I wouldn't exactly call this an "industry-leading" contract...

Good luck to all of you, I'll be proud to come down and help walk the line during your strike should it come to that.

 

[Best on a Camel]

I'm sorry you are confused, if you were an XJT pilot you could come to one of our road shows and have it explained to you.

Sorry, I do not want to sound curt, just getting tired of all the missinformation going on here.

 

[ATRCA]

Yeah, I have to agree. I went to a roadshow today and there are few contrats out there that even come close. Its not all about the pay rates and there are things I would like to see, however trying to outline every section on this forum is absurd and frankly meaningless. The guys did well to demonstrate that this is the most expensive contract in our business (50 seats).

No offense Lear, but you dont know the facts.

Its about XJT and no one else.

Adios.

 

[JetLinkin Park]

Hopefully they won't be because I am voting YES. Industry leading contract in this enviornment? You would be nuts not to!

You sound like some 22 year old kid who still lives with mommy. You have got to be kidding me.

VOTE NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Yeah, I have to agree. I went to a roadshow today and there are few contrats out there that even come close. Its not all about the pay rates and there are things I would like to see, however trying to outline every section on this forum is absurd and frankly meaningless. The guys did well to demonstrate that this is the most expensive contract in our business (50 seats).

No offense Lear, but you dont know the facts.

Its about XJT and no one else.

Adios.

I'm glad you came today (and were even brave enough to sit up in the front row). You asked some great questions and your ability to keep and open mind is commendable. Thanks for coming and thanks for the post above - it is dead on!

-Neal

 

[Best on a Camel]

Far far from it my friend,

Just mature and have also been in the aviation business for along time. A good deal in this enviornment is a YES vote from me and my wife.

And from the several conversations I had in the crewroom today, a bunch of the guys agree with me. Once this deal is explained to people, and put in the proper context I think you will see the vocal minority change their opinion too.

As the MEC and Duane Woerth said "Hope is not a strategy."


On a side note, I took one of my kids to a Linkin Park concert awhile back, that lead singer is a shorty! (See I'm not such an old fuddy duddy!)

 

[172driver]

Just mature and have also been in the aviation business for along time. A good deal in this enviornment is a YES vote from me and my wife.

And from the several conversations I had in the crewroom today, a bunch of the guys agree with me. Once this deal is explained to people, and put in the proper context I think you will see the vocal minority change their opinion too.

This environment, as you put it, has been created not by 9/11, not by LCC's, not by struggling legacy partners, but by regional pilot groups accepting less than what they are worth. If you accept lower pay rates than the competitor, the company promises...growth, faster upgrades, job security, and now...better work rules, profit sharing, retro pay, etc. Sounds good but what about the pay rates???

Even if the other perks in this TA were worth what you say they are, you have still succeeded in lowering the bar for the industry if you vote this in. How are future pilot groups supposed to negotiate better rates when you, a large and profitable group have already settled for 5-10% less than what they have now?

If the value of this TA can be explained and put in the proper context, as you say, then please do it. We would all like to hear what is so special about this proposal that you feel good about accepting significantly less pay than at least 4 other regionals

 

[BluDevAv8r]

This environment, as you put it, has been created not by 9/11, not by LCC's, not by struggling legacy partners, but by regional pilot groups accepting less than what they are worth. If you accept lower pay rates than the competitor, the company promises...growth, faster upgrades, job security, and now...better work rules, profit sharing, retro pay, etc. Sounds good but what about the pay rates???

Even if the other perks in this TA were worth what you say they are, you have still succeeded in lowering the bar for the industry if you vote this in. How are future pilot groups supposed to negotiate better rates when you, a large and profitable group have already settled for 5-10% less than what they have now?

If the value of this TA can be explained and put in the proper context, as you say, then please do it. We would all like to hear what is so special about this proposal that you feel good about accepting significantly less pay than at least 4 other regionals

It would take too long on here...so I tell you what - email me at [email protected] and I will provide you with a copy of our road show schedule and you have my formal invitation to attend one of our presentations as my personal guest. Let me know...

-Neal

 

[Best on a Camel]

I have read the contract and been to a roadshow, so I can tell you we did not lower the bar, we raised it. Are the pay rates there? No, but the W2 is, and that's what counts. Take up Neal's invitation and see why.

I would even say I don't give a rip about the pay rates, all I wanna know is what my quality of life and W2 are going to look like. Thats what a career in aviation has taught me.

I once worked under a contract that was voted in primarily on the pay rates and then spent the next few years realizing I had a pay cut because the work rules were weak.

W2 is what counts. Take it from someone who has learned the hard way.

And there is an industry leading W2 in this TA.


BOAC

 

[JetLinkin Park]

Right on! They speak for me too! And they're about to go back to the table to speak for me some more!

Amen. This is far from over................................

 

[172driver]

I really would like to see and hear about the TA but to be completely honest, it's not my airline, not my TA, and I can't see spending my days off travelling to do that. Believe me, I hope it is an excellent deal for you guys. I don't quite understand why it can't be broken down here, but again, it's not my deal.

I fully agree that the W2 is the bottom line, along with QOL issues. I just don't see that your TA is going to lead the industry in either. I'm sorry I can't be there for you to explain it to me but feel free to use this forum to illustrate if you feel so strongly. A lot of us are wondering why you would settle for this. Seems very similar to the CHQ and Mesaba negotiations...lots of talk about CMR+ or we'll walk but when push comes to shove, you take the first offer the NC brings you, pick parts that you're proud of, and boast about it being great.

My W2 as a 2nd year FO will be around $42,000. $46,500 with perdiem. Somehow I have a feeling your new TA is not going to hit that mark. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

Our work rules and rigs are still better than your proposal, probably excepting reserve rules. Again, I haven't seen the whole thing, maybe I am mistaken?

 

[JetLinkin Park]

I really would like to see and hear about the TA but to be completely honest, it's not my airline, not my TA, and I can't see spending my days off travelling to do that. Believe me, I hope it is an excellent deal for you guys. I don't quite understand why it can't be broken down here, but again, it's not my deal.

I fully agree that the W2 is the bottom line, along with QOL issues. I just don't see that your TA is going to lead the industry in either. I'm sorry I can't be there for you to explain it to me but feel free to use this forum to illustrate if you feel so strongly. A lot of us are wondering why you would settle for this. Seems very similar to the CHQ and Mesaba negotiations...lots of talk about CMR+ or we'll walk but when push comes to shove, you take the first offer the NC brings you, pick parts that you're proud of, and boast about it being great.

My W2 as a 2nd year FO will be around $42,000. $46,500 with perdiem. Somehow I have a feeling your new TA is not going to hit that mark. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

Our work rules and rigs are still better than your proposal, probably excepting reserve rules. Again, I haven't seen the whole thing, maybe I am mistaken?

Great post. I thank you for your honestly as well. BTW, you're correct, this agreement in not "industry leading". I'm currently a 2nd year FO and will make around $24,000 this year. The new TA won't boost that to even $30,000. They can go on and on about W2 and all the other crap, but the numbers don't lie. This is a substandard TA and if it passes I PERSONALLY APOLOGIZE TO EVERY MESABA AND CHQ PILOT ON THIS PLANET. I WILL BE ASHAMED OF MY NC AND FELLOW EMPLOYEES.

 

[Dewey Oxberger]

Before I went to the road show yesterday, I was pretty much in the no vote club. The road show does open your eyes, and has swayed me to the undecided category. The truth is, thanks to the stellar pay rates negotiated by our competition in the last year and a half, we have no chance of ever getting released by the NMB if Bush stays in office. If Kerry wins the earliest it could happen is this summer, if at all. We could have negotiated Comair+ rates, but at what cost? PBS? I like getting 2.5 weeks off for one week vacation. Bye! No training on days off? Bye! The astronomically improved reserve and FBO rules? See ya! You get the picture. My one major problem is still the FO rates, especially yr.1-3. If I do vote no, that will be why. I think the timing is great that the TA is out before the election but the vote on it is after. If Bush wins, definite yes vote, unfortunately. If not, maybe we can send this thing back at get the FOs what they deserve.

 

[ALPO]

Vote yes to this and turn your leather jackets for fish net stockings and high heels.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Speaking from experience, it is my belief that you should never vote the first TA in. If you do, you are leaving money on the table. Mgt. knows they must hold back in case it is rejected.

Good luck.We are ALL cheering for you at Comair.

 

[surplus1]

I don't want to interfere in what you're doing but I am interested. I notice that several of you have described your TA as "industry leading", and stat that you will have the "highest" W2 for 50 seat jets, and that your work rules are superior to everyone else. Those are "interesting" claims.

I have not read the full text of your TA (I would like to very much if there was a way that I could) however, the parts that I have read do not appear to me to be "industry leading" nor does it appear that they would in fact produce the "highest W2". I wish that you could somehow point out how you came to that conclusion.

Little doubt your road shows (which I can't attend) have pointed out that this is the best TA since apple pie but road shows always do just that. A road show is a marketing event designed to sell a product. That product is the TA. That is not intended to be a critique, it is just a fact; not just in your airline but in every airline. During the negotiations every agreement becomes the NC's "baby" and there just isn't a negotiating committee that doesn't adopt a paternal attitude towards the product of its work. The NC becomes the "father" of the TA and the MEC that takes it to you is the surrogate mother. Parents don't want their "baby" thrown out with the bath water and that's a natural thing.

As for the "national" politicians, e.g., Woerth, Attarian, Kernan and your lawyer, truth is they really don't care what is in or not in your contract. They don't work for your airline and it won't affect them. Their interest is to get the process over with. It's expensive and the sooner you sign the less ALPA will have to pay. I've never heard any ALPA President tell a pilot group that its TA "sucks", and I've seen a lot of TA's that really did suck. Mind you I'm not saying that yours does all I'm saying is that whatever those folks tell you, hitching your wangon to their rhetoric is not a good idea.

The fact is if you can read the English language you should be able to determine yourself whether or not it (TA) meets your needs. You really don't need a "road show" to sell it to you. If you can't understand the "book" without an explanation from the authors, there's a problem. Again, that is not intended as a critique it's just a fact of life. If you attended a road show and it was just a presentation and explanation, with no sales pitch, then you have just witnessed a miracle.

Your TA will certainly include many improvements over your previous contract. Unless you are in concessionary bargaining that is always the case. The question you have to answer is whether or not those improvements satisfy your needs. If they do, you vote YES. If they do not, you vote NO and send your NC back to the table to do (as one pilot said) some more talking for you. That's the purpose of "ratification". The majority gets to make the call, one man, one vote.

One of you said that Woerth told you that "hope is not a strategy". Of course Woerth is correct but he didn't go far enough. Defeat is not a stategy either. Despair is not a strategy; fear is not a strategy. Success and satisfaction are really the only "strategies" that matter. Don't let buzz words and politics make your decision. What matters is the content of the TA and how it will affect YOUR life, not the rhetoric of the salesmen. Woerth's opinion is just that and nothing more; his opinion. The opinion that matters is yours, not his. Study the TA and vote your conscience based on the content only, not the "opinions". Duane Woerth's opinions will not pay your bills.

There were several opinions (in the thread) related to the election and George Bush vs John Kerry. We know that Bush isn't pro labor and neither is the NMB on which he appoints the majority. Nevertheless, you need to be realistic. Neither George Bush or John Kerry are likey to regard what happens at XJT as being of national importance. If you were one of the big "legacy carriers" that would be a different story, but the fact is you aren't and neither is any other "regional" airline. You're a great company but what you do or don't do is not going to upset the aviation industry or endanger the transportation system. You are not likely to get much attention from the President of the United States.

Another thing; if you are not really familiar with the other contracts, in detail, it is very difficult to determine whether or not your TA is "industry leading". That's a phrase that ALPA just loves to use. I remember when they signed the infamous 16-year contract at Eagle. They called that "industry leading" as well and the ALPA President even gave the EGL MEC Chairman a plaque to commemorate it. As it turned out it was and remains one the most inferior contracts out there.

If someone can download the full TA and tell me where to get it I would be greatful. If that's not possible, help me to understand how you came to the conclusion that this TA will give you the "highest W2" in similar equipment.

I am not asking because I think it is not, I just genuinely want to know for it will affect what happens at my airline whether I like it or not.

Once again good luck and best wishes.

 

[Jonny O]

My friends at other airlines who have signed deals (or taken concessions) in the last couple years have all told me that everyone likes to talk but end up caving in the end. I can see it's the same thing here. Everyone was crying for $100/hr....okay, that's too much....$85/hr....no, how about industry leading! Well, people are right. This isn't even industry leading and everyone is talking about how great it is. I think it's true some guys COULD make more on their W-2 if profit sharing is actually 7 - 9% a year. I think they also factor in retirement improvements...which are great, but don't help me feed a family right now. Work rules increase pay about 2 - 4% a month.
That doesn't help me overlook the negatives. 2nd year FO is $32 - terrible. Min day is 2 hours - a joke. Oh, but you get min 12 days off. There aren't any lines out there right now with less, but we have it just in case. (okay there are a handful, but all more that 95 hrs which won't be allowed anyhow - even though you need those hours to survive with these pay rates) They'll tell you that the best case scenario if this is voted down would be a 6 month - 1 year recess and then a strike is still very unlikely to happen. So, it sounds like we'll just take our small improvements and run. Hey - college degree and all that flight training to make less than $40,000 a year? Sounds GREAT to me.

 

[Best on a Camel]

Yawn.

 

[100/hour/5y]

I can't live on profit sharing... I would galdly give up profit sharing and min 12 days off for Comair + 2%

Don't for get about the FO's

FF

 

[JetLinkin Park]

I can't live on profit sharing... I would galdly give up profit sharing and min 12 days off for Comair + 2%

Don't for get about the FO's

FF

Agreed. If my wife needs her car repaired or I want a new computer in August, do I have to wait until I get my big $2k profit sharing check in January? Come on guys. Don't be fooled my market patterns or other carriers. We've waited to long for this bull.

VOTE NO on this TA. You will only be rewarded for your additional patience.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

I have not read the full text of your TA (I would like to very much if there was a way that I could) however, the parts that I have read do not appear to me to be "industry leading" nor does it appear that they would in fact produce the "highest W2". I wish that you could somehow point out how you came to that conclusion.

D.D.,

Please email me at [email protected] and I will be happy provide you with a copy of our TA as well as our 27-page contract summary (and speak to you on the phone about it as well).

Neal Schwartz
XJT NC Chairman

 

[WmuBronco]

Undecided


My decision was definately no, until I went to the roadshow. Just did a little math myself and came up with our 2nd year/fo payscale being about 60 cents an hour less then SkyWest's. Of course that is with profit sharing and leg to leg add on the there. But the better work rules we got and the scope I think more than make up for it.

Christian

 

[Nova]

Hook, Line and Sinker

 

[Britpilot]

VOTE NO on this TA. You will only be rewarded for your additional patience.

And your crystal ball says exactly what we will be 'rewarded" with?
My vote will be YES.

 

[Nova]

From the sounds of it most of the Yes votes are coming out of IAH with them dropping off as you move NE through the system. And XJet folks complained about the IAH pilots at CAL?

 

[nimtz]

From the sounds of it most of the Yes votes are coming out of IAH with them dropping off as you move NE through the system. And XJet folks complained about the IAH pilots at CAL?

I think that is a bullsh!t observation and I'm EWR based. Amazing how people try to hang on to sterotypes from the last contract and try to believe all the koolaid drinkers are in IAH. The most activism in the union I've seen has not been the legendary EWR, but IAH. In my experience the most koolaid drinkers are in CLE.