ExpressJet Pilots Reach Tentative Agreement

[nonstop]

I just read through the bullet points and skimmed the larger TA. Having worked at XJET before and then worked for a major...I'd say this is a much more formal, mature contract that everyone should be proud of. Block or better on a leg basis is HUGE! (We were all told at the road shows in 97 thats how it'd work...guess they made a mistake). Other things being spelled out like maternity leave, the big scope improvements, uniform allowance (no excuse for looking like crap), reduced duty time allowance for backside of the clock, only 1 leg after standups possible. The reserve system is somewhat similar to what I had at DAL and it was fantastic. All the little quality of life things add a lot of value to an employee...its not as easy to quantify as a pay rate but they are what you deal with more often as you progress through life at a company.

Don't just look at payrates by themselves. The Year 1 FO pay is sad but the agreement as a whole appears pretty solid. I think you'll see a higher paycheck with all the extras than the payrate tables initially suggest (75 x rate). But then I only looked at it for an hour. The retro pay is structured nicely too. The raises compared to status quo are pretty good as well.

You guys can be proud of this contract. Enjoy your XJET retro this XMAS!

Sup Ream? Can I still collect my WIC cheese if I collect retro?

$5 an hour is huge. It's like $2/hr in a normal job. Not accounting for inflation of course. That brings it to about $0.50. Huge.

I know about 2,500 guys who will be in the market for a double wide if this bad boy passes! Trailer park stocks will be on the IBD 100 2 weeks after this is ratified.

 

[WolfManPack]

Mjg

MJG,

First of all....you're right....I do some intestinal fortitude! So my name is "WolfManPack"....not Wolfpack.....so get it right!!! And also that is not something that I would not say to your face so don't come back with this anonymous board crap either. You want to sit down or stand up in person and have a chit chat...then there are ways to do that and I'd be glad to meet up with you sometime. So until you're ready put your money where your mouth is then I suggest you don't use personal attacks again to show your immature ignorance! If you want to argue a point then you must learn to use your brain rather than that high testerone level.

Now...to strike down your "silly soul" argument you so boldly write about here.....let's start with the "deal with it" comment...and there is a direct corelation!

That gets right back to what I emphasized in my post regarding the "mentality" of pilots that have just resigned to the fact that a professional pilots first year pay just is going to suck and there is not much anybody can do about it. That's a slavery mentality that will keep your wages as low as they are now for a long time. I understand Rome was not built in a day but I do believe in working for what you want and deserve. I'm trying to put ideas in the minds of those who are in the position to make a difference....but if you wish then you can just give up and "deal with it" but that's just not me!

Now regarding this First Year FO crap....I don't know if you just didn't see my comments sincerely thanking Neal for his hard work or what but you sound as if I just cursed out the company president. The questions I asked were legitmate and well thought out questions that I would not hesitate asking to a Union rep in person.

You take care now!

 

[burrito]

Listening to Neal is like listening to Bush and Kerry squabble - total bs.
Do yourselves a favor and educate yourselves.


I know that I've made some stupid comments on this board, but I'm completely serious now. I am not remotely against ALPA, I just don't trust Neal or the rest of your ALPA a$$ clown any farther that I can throw them. Get the contract you want and deserve before you merely accept what they are saying is right for you.

I know you are all trying to do the right thing, but educate yourselves before you vote.

 

[nonstop]

Well, I think it has to do with negotiating in good faith. They (the NC) have to at least present themselves like they support the TA.

God, I hope they seriously don't really think it's a good deal, lol. But I'm pretty sure they don't.

But like I said, I think it's a good faith thing. So just go along with it, vote no, and when it comes out as a 90% no vote it'll light a fire under Reams ass.

From what I heard from the conference call, they stressed the "vote your conscious" line. In other words, "if you think a 4 percent raise is adequate vote yes, if you're sane, vote no."

It's progress, at least. It's our job now to tell the company what we think about it.

 

[nonstop]

Whatever....I'm voting a big fat YES to this TA and I'm going to do everything in my power to convince everyone I know to do the same. This is great news for our pilot group and congratulations to our NC, and especially Neal Schwartz, for their tireless hard word.

EVERYONE VOTE YES!!!

Steve L.
IAH FO

This is what we refer to as the "minority."

 

[Mikes Apartment]

Hey Vortilon,


I heard your wife works at ExpressJet again. Not a bad place to hang out till United calls her back.

 

[Dewey Oxberger]

The scary thing is, if the FO pay was 60% I actually would have thought about voting for this thing. The fact that it isn't even close (especially the 1st year pay!) makes my decision pretty easy.

 

[Nova]

First year pay will never be 60% as it's the probationary year.

 

[MJG]

WolfManPack,

Very well then, come find me at a roadshow and we can put our money where our mouths are.

 

[MJG]

First year pay will never be 60% as it's the probationary year.

In fact here are some percentage breakdowns of year 1 FO to year 1 CA (where applicable)

SWA=30%
JetB=46%
AWA=32%
Alaska=28%
Airtran=42%
AMR=25%
CAL= ~25% (CAL FO get 2500/mo)
DAL=26%
NWA=23%

AirWis=43%
Eagle=41%
CHQ=42%
XJet TA=42% (vs. 135CA)

So yes first year pay blows big time. Always has and always will. But ask any airline pilot who isn't still on probation who should get a bigger raise, themselves or a new hire, guess what 99.9% of them will say. It doesn't make it any more right or wrong. It's just human nature. Pilots care about themselves and themselves only. That's sad, I'll be the first to admit, but it's the honest to God's truth.

Do I sympathize with the plight of every first year FO especially at a "regional"? Sure I do. But the pay won't be changed by any pilot group internally through a long drawn out contract negotiation cycle. It will only be changed when the supply starts to fall well short of the demand. Until pilots quit lining up at the door to come to the "regionals", this unfortunate fact won't be any different.

 

[Paul R. Smith]

Ya know I just want to say that I'm getting confused by the Holding Company letter... I had no idea there was XJT holdings and Expressjet holdings and that Ream is president of Both. WTF. So if you start another thread be sure to specify wether or not you are refferring to XJT or Expressjet as they are two entirely different things. But Ream is president of Both. And they both deal with Continental Express DBA Expressjet airlines. And the money always goes to the same place anyway..

 

[MJG]

Couple other points about any TA, let alone this one.

There are certain things in any TA that you can't attach a price to or a percentage increase to. So how do you reconcile that with the things that you can quantify like pay rates and profit sharing?

I don't honestly know the answer to that. I suppose that it will be different for each individual. Some will value certain things over others. Can you honestly put a monetary value to a good scope clause? Can you put an actual dollar figure to a company contribution to your retirement fund when you multiply it out over the life of your retirement plan? Can you correlate that same % in retirement contribution to how much more that would be it was just added to your pay rate vs. being part of a retirement plan? Can you put a value on better work rules? Can you put a figure to how much money that could potentially be lost by waiting another 2 months, 6 months even a year for something that may or may not be better?

These are tough questions that every airline pilot has to deal with when it comes time to vote. Everyone has a vote. And that's the most important thing. A simple majority will rule the day. 50%+1. Sad but true.

 

[Vortilon]

Mike,

You must have mistaken me for someone else.

 

[surplus1]

First, you aren't going to see any second guessing, bashing or criticism in this post and there will be no recommendation as to how you should vote so, if that's what you "like" to read just move on the next one.

Second, congratulations to your NC for reaching a TA. The bargaining process is tough whether you do it in bad times or good times. It takes an incredible amount of dedication, patience, effort and gut-wrenching hard work to be a contract negotiator. Unless you have done it yourself you really can't fully appreciate the difficulty of the job.

These folks don't just have to "negotiate" with the Company. They also have to negotiate with the MEC, the pilot group, their union-provided lawyers, the plethora of "advisors" provided by the national union, the national union's political officials and last but not least, the NMB. Whether you like the TA, hate the TA, vote yes or vote no, the members of your negotiating committee need to be appreciated and thanked for their efforts on your behalf. This is true in 90 + % of all contract negotiations. Keep in mind that your negotiators are pilots just like you and they too will have to work under the terms of whatever Agreement is ultimately signed. Say thanks when you see them; they deserve it.

Third, ANY TA, whether good, bad or indifferent is a sign of progress. You are one major step closer to the end of the game, so keep your thinking positive. If the majority of you decide to vote "yes", it will mean you have a contract that you'll have to live with for the duration. If you decide to vote no, it's not the end of the world! That happens frequently and you can be sure that the Company is fully prepared for that possibility. Hopefully the pilot group and your MEC are also prepared. If you decide to vote no, you all need to be on the same page by a wide margin. If you're not on the same "team" don't play the game.

If the vote is no, it just means it will take more time. How much is unknown but there is always enough time if YOU have the patience and control to see it through. It could be a few weeks if all the TA needs is some "tweaking" (the vote margin will tell you that), It could be as much as a year or more if major changes are required. Regardless of which, the process will continue and eventually an Agreement will be reached. Do not allow fear of the time line to twarth your efforts for that only plays into the hand of the Company and will give them a bigger advantage than they normally have. Weigh carefully your needs vs your wants and make your decision. Whatever you do, don't throw rocks at your negotiating committee. Remember, they are probably the same people that will have to "fix" whatever it is you don't want. They can't do that without your full support. They are always on your side so give them the support they will need to continue. If they know you're behind them solidly they can do the job.

You've asked some important questions. They are not "easy" to answer, but they do have answers. Heres is one man's opinion. Take it or leave it as you see fit.

There are certain things in any TA that you can't attach a price to or a percentage increase to.

That's a popular thought but it is also a misconception. Everything in your contract has a value. Some things are more intangible that others, but all of them can be quantified. It's not easy, but it can be done.

So how do you reconcile that with the things that you can quantify like pay rates and profit sharing?

You can vote the agreement as a package (recommended) or you can single out key issues that meet your needs vs those that do not. Ultimately you will have to decide between the needs and the wants. Make yourself a simple chart and assign a value to each issue as you see it. Take the -'s from the +'s and come up with a score that is YOUR measure of the value of the contract. Go from there to your decision. Try to stay away from trivia. And YES, it will be different for each individual, but the final answer will affect you all.

Can you honestly put a monetary value to a good scope clause?

YES! The scope clause is the measure of your job security. Losing the job (because you have no Scope) is exactly equal to what you would earn x the life of the contract. If you don't work there, it just doesn't matter what they might have paid you if you did. There are some unknowns in the equation, but nothing is perfect.

Can you put an actual dollar figure to a company contribution to your retirement fund when you multiply it out over the life of your retirement plan?

YES. You can bet the company has done just that. You do have to make some assumptions re the rate of return you expect the contributions to earn but if you're realistic you can definitely come up with a dollar value.

Can you correlate that same % in retirement contribution to how much more that would be it was just added to your pay rate vs. being part of a retirement plan?

Sure. You can add up what you will earn over a given period (based on your guarantee x your pay rate(s). You can then add the % of and increase equal to the value of the retirement fund over the same period and compare. It will give you a good idea. That's not scientific by any means but it should be close enough to put you in the ball park.

Can you put a value on better work rules?

Yep. Work rules have a "cost" to the Company and you can be certain they have measured the cost of each and every one. Your negotiating committe has done the same thing, using its financial advisors. The company always inflates these costs in the beginning but by the time you reach a TA both sides have agreed to the cost. These are big numbers but if you do the homework you can break them down to $ per hour of work. Notice I didn't say per hour of flight. All "work rules" are essentially a form of "rig". Their cost plus your book pay rate can be measured in terms of what it costs to keep you avialable to the Company. That is also what they are "paying" you to be there, i.e, what you earn. Don't forget things like vacation and sick leave and remember, you may not be flying while you deadhead but you are working.Work the math. You should get two different numbers. One when you're in flight and another when you're just "available". Average them out. Do not include things like perdiem (those are expenses not pay) or premiums for open time or JM. The company controls those two so don't give them credits for what the won't do.

Again this isn't pure science, but it will give you a good idea. It may surprise you how much "work rules" are really worth. If you don't want to be bothered with all the work, ask your negotiating committee. They should have some answers.

Can you put a figure to how much money that could potentially be lost by waiting another 2 months, 6 months even a year for something that may or may not be better?

Yes. You can do this in a way similar to how you would calculate the cost of a strike. Again you have to make a number of assumptions and the answers won't be perfect but you can get close. One of the assumptions you have to make is that the final settlement will not be less than the current TA. Only you (as a group) can make that happen. However, you already know what they are willing to give you so there is no logical reason to accept anything less. What you have to measure is the difference between what you have now and the TA over the time frame. Then you make estimates of what will be improve and by how much vs what you will lose while you're waiting. If you can make up the difference over the life of the contract, you break even. If you can't you lose. If you do better you gain. How much in $ depends on the assumptions and estimates you make. This is where your solidarity comes in to play. Either you have it or you don't. Since I'm an outsider I can't measure that.

Take this with a grain of salt and remember these are all just my opinions. I can't tell you what you should do. In fact I can't even suggest that. You and your fellow pilots have to make the call and I'm sure you already know that.

These are tough questions that every airline pilot has to deal with when it comes time to vote. Everyone has a vote. And that's the most important thing. A simple majority will rule the day. 50%+1. Sad but true.

You are right, 50% + 1 is all it takes. Chances are the company is counting on getting that, which is why they made you this offer. If they get 75% approval then they know they gave you too much. If you reject it by 50% + 1, you're in trouble. So, if your going to say no, then shoot for a high percentage. That will tell the company what they have to do next. It will also tell your negotiators, whichever way you decide to go.

I wish you all nothing but the best.

 

[surplus1]

I have a question:

Who was the F& H attorney that negotiated for the Company?

Thanks.

 

[Flying Horses]

One of the assumptions you have to make is that the final settlement will not be less than the current TA. Only you (as a group) can make that happen. However, you already know what they are willing to give you so there is no logical reason to accept anything less.

CHQ's current contract's payscale is less than their first TA's payscale. This is because of changing economic conditions. First TA was before 9/11, 2nd TA (current contract) was after 9/11.

So it is a gamble to wait for another TA.

 

[Jetlink]

I have a question:

Who was the F& H attorney that negotiated for the Company?

Thanks.

Claude Sullivan, Esq.

 

[MJG]

CHQ's current contract's payscale is less than their first TA's payscale. This is because of changing economic conditions. First TA was before 9/11, 2nd TA (current contract) was after 9/11. So it is a gamble to wait for another TA.

And therein lies the delima..... Just ask the USAir pilots how much more they offered to give up on their latest TA#2 vs. concessionary TA#1. Guess it's time to talk to Miss Cleo....

Surplus1,

Thanks for replying to those questions. I threw those thoughts out there hopefully to get folks thinking. I also think it's important to hear from pilots who have been down this road recently. Their input gives sort of a neutral third party view to it.

 

[RSRVWINDSURFR]

Thank you for the excellent post surplus1.

 

[nimtz]

Listening to Neal is like listening to Bush and Kerry squabble - total bs.
Do yourselves a favor and educate yourselves.


I know that I've made some stupid comments on this board, but I'm completely serious now. I am not remotely against ALPA, I just don't trust Neal or the rest of your ALPA a$$ clown any farther that I can throw them. Get the contract you want and deserve before you merely accept what they are saying is right for you.

I know you are all trying to do the right thing, but educate yourselves before you vote.

You're the same @ssclown who riducled our pilot group while picketing in CLE so you know what MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS! I won't ever forgive someone for that level of stupidity. With all the drama in our house the last thing I want to hear is some anti-ALPA egomaniac like you telling us what to do.

I'm proud to be ALPA and regardless of what the vote comes on the TA, I will not let some punk b!tch like you cut down the hard work of our MEC and the negotiating team. It takes alot of hard work and sacrifice to represent a union mainly because there are charlatans like you in every group. I have seen Neal go above and beyond being available to us to answer every person's last little b!tch. Comparing him to the joke of our political parties tells me you are clueless j@ckass.

Based on recent negative management decisions at Commutair perhaps YOU need to figure the trouble in you're own house. Meantime we don't need you're nudging to tell us to educate ourselves and decide whether we will take this TA.