ExpressJet Pilots Reach Tentative Agreement

[Nova]

How can an observation be bull@#$ as you put it? I've met IAH crews and they say Yes, I've met CLE and EWR crews and they say No, that is my observation.

As for union activism, I believe that CLE drew the largest percentage of pilots during each of our events this summer.

 

[JetLinkin Park]

And your crystal ball says exactly what we will be 'rewarded" with?
My vote will be YES.

That's fine with me Brit. I will vote for myself and you do the same. I'm not spinning any information here. I merely said that getting profit sharing in January won't help me pay bills in August. My wife agrees.

Turn off the font size my man.

 

[surplus1]

Please email me at [email protected] and I will be happy provide you with a copy of our TA as well as our 27-page contract summary (and speak to you on the phone about it as well).

Neal Schwartz
XJT NC Chairman

Thank you very much for your offer Neal. Someone already sent me a copy of the TA. What I received, included many "sections" where there was verry little language or just a statment incorporating that section of the existing contract. None of the LOA's or other letters were included.

I'm not sure if that is becasue that language is not yet fully developed or if the document I got includes only the changes to the current Agreement, i.e., the "new" language. Perhaps you will be able to help me with that.

I can't make comparisons without seeing the whole thing. I will send you a PM with an email address where you can send it to me if you wish. I'm also happy to speak with you if you have the time. I know you must be very busy right now and don't want to waste your valuable time chatting with an interested party who is not a part of the process.

Candidly, I am also very concerned that I might say something that could be interpreted as an opinion on how you should vote. I do not wish to influence the vote one way or the other, but I do want to determine for myslef whether or not I can see your TA as "industry leading" and how that conclusion was reached.

The reason I am intersted and concerned about your TA is because I know that it will indirectly affect my airline. It will also affect current negotiations at ASA, which in turn affects us. Naturally, I am hoping that effect will be positive but I understand fully that you must do what you believe is best for you.

As I am certain you know my group is facing increasing concessionary pressures. The principal source of those pressures is not the profitability of my company. It is the concessions made at other carriers where there was no real need, and the new contracts being negotiated or signed. It recent times, neither of those could be described as encouraging. I am hoping that your new Agreement will not fall into that category as well.

Thanks again for your generous offer. Look for my PM later today.

Surplus1

 

[suupah]

What does NMB stand for?

 

[i'mbatman]

National Mediation Board

 

[nimtz]

How can an observation be bull@#$ as you put it? I've met IAH crews and they say Yes, I've met CLE and EWR crews and they say No, that is my observation.

As for union activism, I believe that CLE drew the largest percentage of pilots during each of our events this summer.

So do you ask each of these crews where they are based as you ask them what they think of the contract? I highly doubt you have taken specific data from each person or even asked enough people to justify making a broad claim over 1800+ pilots. As for the geography claim, what the h*ll does that mean? So are guys that live in MSP and Florida undecided then since they don't fall in the yes/no movement across the system. Based on the fact most are based in IAH that means you would of had to recieve ALOT of 'yeas' from IAH pilots in order to pin the yes voters on that base.

It has always ticked me off the way many at this company try to categorize an individual's behavior based on their base. You have come out plainly against this TA and I think all you're doing is setting up the blame in case the TA passes. You can then say 'It was because of Houston', which others then pass on as 'those d!ckheads in IAH are just like the scabs at CAL.' That is why I think making a catty remark about the IAH CAL scabs is ill advised and stupid in my opinon. I do not think there is a place for these 'observations' until you have the specific breakdown by base of the final TA vote.

This thing is going to cause enough emotion at the office over the next month without people starting up the old game of base vs base. Until this thing gets settled let us keep the flamethrowing bottled up. Once it's decided, well do whatever you want. Who knows we all might regret voting NO in months time?

Signed,
Favoring NO

 

[Britpilot]

Turn off the font size my man.

But I like the font size, it has panache and verve, just like me

 

[Britpilot]

From the sounds of it most of the Yes votes are coming out of IAH with them dropping off as you move NE through the system. And XJet folks complained about the IAH pilots at CAL?

EWR based voting yes.
Sorry to spoil your unoffical poll.

 

[JetLinkin Park]

But I like the font size, it has panache and verve, just like me

Fair enough. BTW, I see you're a check airman (or so your sig mentions). I think I'd be voting yes to if I was making around 70-80 hr. (includes over-ride) and was about to swallow a very large retro check.

As for myself (and a lot of other FO's), I'm pullin down and entire $27/hr @ min. guarantee on reserve. Oh yeah, don't forget my $200 a month in per diem. As for retro, well that 2 + years I spent on the street pretty much answers that one. So what am I getting by voting yes........ not much.

SO MUCH FOR NOT LEAVING FO'S BEHIND.

 

[Britpilot]

Fair enough. BTW, I see you're a check airman (or so your sig mentions). I think I'd be voting yes to if I was making around 70-80 hr. (includes over-ride) and was about to swallow a very large retro check.

As for myself (and a lot of other FO's), I'm pullin down and entire $27/hr @ min. guarantee on reserve. Oh yeah, don't forget my $200 a month in per diem. As for retro, well that 2 + years I spent on the street pretty much answers that one. So what am I getting by voting yes........ not much.

SO MUCH FOR NOT LEAVING FO'S BEHIND.

Yes I am a check airman.
I only get over ride when I am flying as a check airman.
I was a Beech FO in '98 , a Beech CA until '01 so I know all about low pay as you are earning more now than I did as a Beech CA in '01. I'm sorry that I am senior to you, that is just a fact of life.
I don't even know what I will see for a retro check yet. I am looking at the whole contract and I see a lot of stuff in there that I like. I really don't see where the FO,s are being left behind.

 

[boxjockey]

FO's are getting left behind by the fact that we're not at 60% of capt. pay. Most of the rest of the contract has good improvements.


box

 

[EMB145FO]

This is not flaimbait; I simply want to get as many perspectives as possible.

Britpilot (and others that support this TA),

Britpilot, you state that you see a lot of stuff in the contract that you like. Please give specific examples. To me, the miniscule work rule improvements are insufficient to justify living with such obscene wages for the next 4-6 years. How will your life change under this TA compared to our current contract? In my opinion, not enough to vote yes. Aside, from scope I don't think we have much to lose by sending the NC back to the table. And for those who completely believe the union's doom and gloom story about our industry and the nation...save it for another thread. Let's evaluate this TA for what it is worth. Either it meets our expectations or it does not.

 

[JetLinkin Park]

Yes I am a check airman.
I only get over ride when I am flying as a check airman.
I was a Beech FO in '98 , a Beech CA until '01 so I know all about low pay as you are earning more now than I did as a Beech CA in '01. I'm sorry that I am senior to you, that is just a fact of life.
I don't even know what I will see for a retro check yet. I am looking at the whole contract and I see a lot of stuff in there that I like. I really don't see where the FO,s are being left behind.

-Every dollar counts.
-I figured you were once an FO.
-Don't be sorry. I'm not sorry about being senior to 1st year FO's, but I'll be thinking about them when I vote NO.
-Your retro check will be enough to "aid" in your decision.
-We're being left behind with no retro and substandard wages. That's how.

BTW, I wasn't being a smart*ss when I said I'd vote yes if in your shoes. It's unfortunate that the NC has put us in such a position. Nothing like a $15,000 check two weeks before Christmas to bribe half the voters into accepting horrid wages for the next 5 years.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

This is not flaimbait; I simply want to get as many perspectives as possible.

Britpilot (and others that support this TA),

Britpilot, you state that you see a lot of stuff in the contract that you like. Please give specific examples. To me, the miniscule work rule improvements are insufficient to justify living with such obscene wages for the next 4-6 years. How will your life change under this TA compared to our current contract? In my opinion, not enough to vote yes. Aside, from scope I don't think we have much to lose by sending the NC back to the table. And for those who completely believe the union's doom and gloom story about our industry and the nation...save it for another thread. Let's evaluate this TA for what it is worth. Either it meets our expectations or it does not.

I don't know who you are because you have posted anonymously and hence, I have no idea if you have seen a road show presentation so all I can ask is "have you seen a road show presentation yet?" We do address all of your concerns. I have given each of the 4-hour presentations for the past 5 days and have yet to a purely "doom and gloom" story but rather - have provided the facts and the reality as we see it. We talk about the positives and the negatives and much much more. On day 1 alone, this TA adds 34.4% cost to our pilot payroll of and this does not count a $30 million retro payment to our pilots by December 23.

Neal Schwartz
Chairman
XJT Negotiating Committee

 

[Britpilot]

- Nothing like a $15,000 check two weeks before Christmas to bribe half the voters into accepting horrid wages for the next 5 years.

How is retro considered a bribe? I, like a lot of us, have been waiting for over two years for this contract. Christmas has nothing to do with my decision. If you knew me then you would know that I always suport the Express pilots be they Captains or FO's or even Flow backs

 

[JetLinkin Park]

How is retro considered a bribe? I, like a lot of us, have been waiting for over two years for this contract. Christmas has nothing to do with my decision. If you knew me then you would know that I always suport the Express pilots be they Captains or FO's or even Flow backs

Ugh, please don't use the "F" word.

 

[JetLinkin Park]

How is retro considered a bribe? I, like a lot of us, have been waiting for over two years for this contract. Christmas has nothing to do with my decision. If you knew me then you would know that I always suport the Express pilots be they Captains or FO's or even Flow backs

-Just ask any flowback that question.
-So have I. That's why I'm so disappointed.
-Nor mine. Just hoping I could afford gifts for the kids this year.

 

[Nova]

Jesus, I post that in passing that IAH pilots are more inclined to vote YES on this TA than those in EWR and CLE. Wow, so you know a few who buck that trend, big freakin' deal, I never said that I actually polled every **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** pilot in this company. Yes each base is different and I can assure you that those paying their NY/NJ taxes will be looking at these pay rates a bit different than those in sunny TX.

Brit, we all know the hardships of the old Beech FO's and captains but give it a break. The captains were upgrading in less than a year and were pay protected on the ATR/120 or even Jet soon their after. How long did those '99 hires have to wait before they cleared $30k? 1 year? 2 years? Meanwhile the rest of us are still waiting after 5 years.

Also remember how much it sucked to see the Beech pilots left in the dust on that last contract? It looks like we're setting up for that to happen to the whole FO list on this one.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Hook, Line and Sinker

Why is it "hook, line, and sinker" if he came to a road show, listened, asked questions, and is still on the fence but maybe leaning one way? Sounds like the presentation did its job....it made him think.

-Neal

 

[Air Biscuit]

I don't know who you are because you have posted anonymously and hence, I have no idea if you have seen a road show presentation so all I can ask is "have you seen a road show presentation yet?" We do address all of your concerns. I have given each of the 4-hour presentations for the past 5 days and have yet to a purely "doom and gloom" story but rather - have provided the facts and the reality as we see it. We talk about the positives and the negatives and much much more. On day 1 alone, this TA adds 34.4% cost to our pilot payroll of and this does not count a $30 million retro payment to our pilots by December 23.

Neal Schwartz
Chairman
XJT Negotiating Committee

Neal, I was at a road show and I think that you did a great job presenting the facts. I appreciate all the effort on everyone's part in our union. This is my take on things. We have waited already 2 years. In my opinion it is worth a 6 or maybe 12 month wait to be released to self help rather than accept something that is far below everyone's expectations for another 6+ years. I think Kerry will win the election. The politics of the NMB could change for the better and get worse again over the course of this new contract, and it will get even harder to get out of this rj hole that we're getting buried in. It is up to our pilot group to change things. I know you feel this is a good contract given the circumstances. I disagree however and feel that we are still not raising the bar that was set by the hard work and determination of the Comair pilots. You and I know that the company can afford to pay us a whole lot more than they are giving us. Why not wait it out a little while longer and let the pressure on the company build even more?

 

[Britpilot]

The captains were upgrading in less than a year and were pay protected on the ATR/120 or even Jet soon their after. How long did those '99 hires have to wait before they cleared $30k? 1 year? 2 years? Meanwhile the rest of us are still waiting after 5 years.

I was pay protected during my second week of ground school on the RJ in '01. Like a lot of the guys I was "seat locked" on the Beech and received no pay protection even though I held RJ CA for three bids. Most RJ FO's were making more money than us Beech Captains due to open time pick up, dead head pay and lines built to 90+ hours. I broke the 30 grand barrier in 01, just.
I think that the road show will give you some numbers for 5th year FO's that will easily clear the 30 grand mark.

 

[Nova]

Why is it "hook, line, and sinker" if he came to a road show, listened, asked questions, and is still on the fence but maybe leaning one way? Sounds like the presentation did its job....it made him think.

-Neal

Did the presentation do it's job if it made him think and still decide to vote NO?

The problem being that if we educate ourselves and still come away with a NO vote additude we're wrong in the eyes of the union reps. Don't treat us like uneducated children. We're college educated professionals that are quite capable of thinking on our own. I've asked my questions and gotten my answers but none have shifted my vote.

I think that the road show will give you some numbers for 5th year FO's that will easily clear the 30 grand mark.

The problem is I'm not interested in clearing $30k after 5 years, but rather $40k+. 60% of captain might get it there but that isn't on the table.

 

[ShoreFlyer]

Actually Neil did too good of a job presenting the facts. Everyone is either on the fence, yes, or no.

If it gets voted in by 51 % we got screwed.
If it gets voted down by 51 % we will get screwed.

Management wants it voted in by 51 % no more.
Pilots want it voted in by 100 % or voted down by 100 %.

Its all about unity.

 

[EMB145FO]

Neal,

Yes, I did attend a Road Show. You did an excellent job of presenting a TA which you and others have obviously worked your butts off on for the past 2+ years. You should definitely be commended for that.

The essence of my post addressed those that support this TA. I am interested in what specific reasons they believe this TA meets or exceeds expectations. I have seen the slides, read the TA, listened to Q&A, etc. and still don't see a justification to vote on a contract that simply does not meet MY expectations (which are NOT outlandish). I am interested in learning why others are supportive; perhaps, I will then realize what I am missing and change my opinion.

An industry leading contract would be superior in BOTH work rules AND compensation AND of course SCOPE. I am satisifed with the scope. Our compensation is definitely NOT superior. Our work rules improvements are nice - but not good enough to overcome such inferior compensation. Our compensation COULD be industry leading if certain expectations we hope for are achieved. Of course, we all know that "Hope is not a strategy". Specifically, hourly rates are obviously sub par; to achieve "industry leading" compensation we must:

1. Hope that our profit sharing pays as expected - (about 8%); disregarding the companies history of paying profit sharing to pilots, there is certainly not enough trust to leave this amount of compensation in the hands of management. Not only that, but what protections do we have if profit sharing is not necessarily cancelled but pays lower that assumed? Will the company make up the difference to keep us as the best compensated pilots in the industry? Of course not. How about when our deal with CAL is negotiated? Will we still get a nice 8% proft sharing check? No one knows. On one hand we are told that the success of the past few years are to be expected later, hence the expectation of bountiful Profit Sharing checks. On the other hand, we are told that the airlines are in such dissaray we are lucky to get what we have because the industry has not yet bottomed out. Which one is it? Are things going to get worse (hence the need to take this and run)? If so, should we then NOT expect a generous profit sharing check later on? Finally, even if profit sharing is cancelled, the 3% increase in rates across the board is obviously not enough to maintain industry leading pay. Too much left to chance.

2. Hope that the company "flags" enough trips so we can get 150% pay. (Since 2000 I have yet to see the company volunteer to help me make more money). Why would they start now? Again, too much left to chance.

3. Hope that there are enough stand-ups and red eyes to pick up to take advantage of certain new work rules. (In the past year I have flown exactly 1 red-eye and zero stand-ups.) Even if these increase, how many pilots are going to actually be able to take advantage of it? Again, too much left to chance.

4. Hope that I can give up my day off to train and earn 150% pay. Coupled with having to work 80-90 hours to attain industry leading W2, giving up a day off to train does not improve my quality of life.

5. Hope that leg by leg pay adds 2-4% to our pay. Don't get me wrong, this is a welcomed improvement that would definitely pay out. But many other "industry leading contracts" already have leg by leg (Comair, CHQ, etc). Leg by leg simply brings us up to par with those carriers.

6. Hope for more opportunities for Customs pay, repo. pay (of which we already get for international repo's), etc., etc.

Neal, the primary issue is the claim that this TA promises industry leading pay when in actuality it falls short. With the bold assumption of 8% profit sharing we come close, but still fall short. There is simply too much left to hope and chance. Is there something that I am not understanding? Trust me, I want this to be over like everyone else. I certainly don't want this to drag on. But I'm not ready to cut my losses and wait until next time.

Finally, my choice of words for the union's view on the industry's outlook (i.e. "doom and gloom") was perhaps inflammatory. That is a mere reflection of my frustration and (hopefully) misperception that the union has "given up" on achieving a truly industry leading contract.

The "facts and the reality" - as you put it - is our airline made over $100 million last year in PROFIT. This all occured during what has been called "the perfect storm". I have never heard of a management team saying conditions are so great that we will give you whatever you want. On the contrary, management has always used every tactic, advantage and excuse to keep as much money away from the pilot group as they could - REGARDLESS OF CIRCUMSTANCES. I don't discount the issues of hardship that legacy carriers are enduring nor the (misled) assumption that our leverage is "impotent" simply because we have a Republican president in office. I do understand however, that in order to achieve a contract that indeed raises the bar, both the pilot group AND union must have a firm resolve.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Did the presentation do it's job if it made him think and still decide to vote NO?

Yes B.S., it would have done its job.

The problem being that if we educate ourselves and still come away with a NO vote additude we're wrong in the eyes of the union reps. Don't treat us like uneducated children.

This isn't true at all. Not even close actually. All we ask is that people attend a presentation, listen, ask the tough questions, and then make an informed decision.

The problem is I'm not interested in clearing $30k after 5 years, but rather $40k+. 60% of captain might get it there but that isn't on the table.

Doesn't mean we didn't try...we had a LOT on the table when this thing started and over the course of 2+ years. We have our reasons for doing what we did in all of these areas and I stand by those reasons - which are discussed at the presentations. If you don't agree with those reasons, that is your opinion of course and I respect it.

-Neal

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Neal,

Yes, I did attend a Road Show.

I don't have much time to counter your post line by line (although I would like to rationally debate the issues) because it is 0130 and I haven't slept in over a week, but I will say that I appreciate your very professional and well-thought-out post and your ability to think clearly through the issues, despite the fact I disagree on some points you made. Nonetheless, I am glad you attended a presentation and you obviously took a lot away from it, whichever way that you decide to vote and that is all we asked at the very beginning of the presentation. Bravo to you.

We never said profit sharing would be 8% going forward. As a matter of fact, we even used 7% for our W-2 examples and disclosed the fact that in 2006 and beyond, due to the CPA performance incentives going away, P.S. would be more like 5% to 6%.

If you'd like to give me a call, you probably can find my number or definitely email me. There are some other counter-points so I will leave you with these few parting thoughts...

Our pilots:

1. Love our killer vacation system.
2. Love our prohibition on training-on-days-off.
3. Hate the notion or thought of PBS (let alone the archaic SBS)
4. Love our current 401k plan (let alone our much improved new plan)
5. Love our trip trading system generally (much improved with the new 60-hour floor coming soon)
6. Will love the penalty for the rolling of a reserve pilot's day off (150% add pay and day-off restored)
7. Will love our new reserve system generally.
8. Will love our new FBO system.
9. Will love our Scope/Holding Company language.

There are other areas that we can compare such as Comair's sick leave accrual to ours, etc, but I'll leave that for another time as we are preparing a comparison document for XJT pilot review.

Clearly Comair has some great contractual provisions (including their rates obviously) and they fought very hard for those provisions but as we said in the presentation, to focus in one area would be myopic in nature and we must look at their rates in the context of their whole agreement just as we must look at our rates in the context of our whole agreement. Please also remember the time period and industry environment when Comair negotiated their contract, coupled by the fact that they more or less achieved ACA+1% and ARW soon after achieved Comair+1%.

Is there a possibility that things could get better and we could get a release, etc, thus providing us with significantly more leverage? Of course. Is there a possibility that things could get worse as well? Of course. Those possibilities are what a pilot must think about when weighing the risks and rewards a "yes" vote versus a "no" vote.

Drop me a line sometime.

-Neal

 

[EMB145FO]

Neal - thank you for your tireless and often under-appreciated hard work. You make some good points. I'll certainly drop you a line or catch up at a Road Show.

--TGR
IAH FO

 

[JetLinkin Park]

I think that the road show will give you some numbers for 5th year FO's that will easily clear the 30 grand mark.

This statement alone is very frightening to me. Guess I should be pleased that a 5 year FO will break through the 30K barrier. WAHOO!! I'll go tell the wife and kids that in two years I'll be making as much as the school bus driver!!

 

[Nova]

Haven't you seen the new motto? "Bus Driver + 1%"

 

[Britpilot]

This statement alone is very frightening to me. Guess I should be pleased that a 5 year FO will break through the 30K barrier. WAHOO!! I'll go tell the wife and kids that in two years I'll be making as much as the school bus driver!!

I don't know any 5 year fo's that don't or don't want to bid captain.