Endeavor Flow for New Hires

[jynxyjericho]

Endevour/Delta cannot just give one deal to some of the pilots and another deal to other pilots. (Assuming they have a union.) All that must be part of the collective bargaining process. That is why there is a union in the first place.

Nope. Unfortunately in *this* case the CBA doesnt apply to new hires. Union has been on the phone with legal about this in the past. Although if you know something the experts don't, illaborate and I'll pass it on to my rep.

 

[MDWCrashPad]

The CBA applies to all but may give less protection to the new hires. If your legal is telling them something different then you need new legal.

In collective bargaining individuals give up their individual rights in exchange for bargaining as a group. The company is not free to give certain individuals things that are outside of the CBA. If they were then they would just choose their friends and pay them as they desire. The Company would then refuse to bargain in good faith and eventually let the union go on strike or lock them out. They could then eliminate the union.

The union and company are free to bargain. If the company needs to raise new hire pay to get pilots it needs to go to the union. The company cannot go outside the CBA and give bonus' to new pilots to come work for them without going to the union.

If anyone goes there thinking they have a path to Delta that is superior to those more senior he will be disapointed.

Anything payments outside the CBA needs to go to court an get an injunction.

 

[jynxyjericho]

The CBA applies to all but may give less protection to the new hires. If your legal is telling them something different then you need new legal.

In collective bargaining individuals give up their individual rights in exchange for bargaining as a group. The company is not free to give certain individuals things that are outside of the CBA. If they were then they would just choose their friends and pay them as they desire. The Company would then refuse to bargain in good faith and eventually let the union go on strike or lock them out. They could then eliminate the union.

The union and company are free to bargain. If the company needs to raise new hire pay to get pilots it needs to go to the union. The company cannot go outside the CBA and give bonus' to new pilots to come work for them without going to the union.

If anyone goes there thinking they have a path to Delta that is superior to those more senior he will be disapointed.

Anything payments outside the CBA needs to go to court an get an injunction.

No I think our legal is fine no matter how much bravado you fake.

 

[PCL_128]

The CBA applies to all but may give less protection to the new hires. If your legal is telling them something different then you need new legal.

In collective bargaining individuals give up their individual rights in exchange for bargaining as a group. The company is not free to give certain individuals things that are outside of the CBA. If they were then they would just choose their friends and pay them as they desire. The Company would then refuse to bargain in good faith and eventually let the union go on strike or lock them out. They could then eliminate the union.

The union and company are free to bargain. If the company needs to raise new hire pay to get pilots it needs to go to the union. The company cannot go outside the CBA and give bonus' to new pilots to come work for them without going to the union.

If anyone goes there thinking they have a path to Delta that is superior to those more senior he will be disapointed.

Anything payments outside the CBA needs to go to court an get an injunction.

Not quite. The way they get around it is by making the offer prior to employment at at the airline. Other airlines have gotten around the collective bargaining requirement for newhire bonuses in the same way. Make the payment or the job offer to mainline before the newhire's class date starts at the regional, and they aren't a member of the collective bargaining unit yet, so the CBA doesn't apply. If they were making the offer for a Delta number AFTER the pilot started class at Endeavor, different story. But since the number is being given prior to employment, the CBA doesn't apply.

 

[xjhawk]

could a membership put to a vote?" anyone with a conditional job offer at another company must disclose such offer and will be required to put in 2 month notice? 3 month notice .. or whatever. Otherwise will not be allowed to be a part of the union, in effect not being able to fly

Oh and I think our union's legal reps suck. JS actually had the nerve to say to me that I was wrong in my opinion of the quality of life of a pilot on reserve now, compared to when I was at Mesaba 7-8 years ago. Really Jane? Really? You bragged about all the hard work that you did, called me a liar (that my opinion was not based on facts) and yet failed to use your insight that you were arguing with someone who has spent the better part of 11 years on reserve! That our own legal reps seem to know our own QOL better than we do. Idiots. Plain and simple-no respect for the job they are not doing in protecting my contract, my QOL, my seniority?..Everything. Our MEC keeps giving LOA's away and losing any position of strength we could gain by refusing LOA's. I do not know who is worse, Endeavor or its union leadership.

 

[General Lee]

XJhawk,

Is there ANY way you can apply to JetBlue or Spirit or Frontier and just get away from Endeavor? I think you'll still have a good shot at any of the big 3 eventually if you want, but you sound like you are gonna explode. I want you to do well, and your current situation just doesn't sound healthy at all...


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[PCL_128]

could a membership put to a vote?" anyone with a conditional job offer at another company must disclose such offer and will be required to put in 2 month notice? 3 month notice .. or whatever. Otherwise will not be allowed to be a part of the union, in effect not being able to fly

Closed shops are illegal in the United States, so you can't force anyone out for any reason other than refusing to pay dues or agency fees.

Oh and I think our union's legal reps suck. JS actually had the nerve to say to me that I was wrong in my opinion of the quality of life of a pilot on reserve now, compared to when I was at Mesaba 7-8 years ago. Really Jane? Really? You bragged about all the hard work that you did, called me a liar (that my opinion was not based on facts) and yet failed to use your insight that you were arguing with someone who has spent the better part of 11 years on reserve! That our own legal reps seem to know our own QOL better than we do. Idiots. Plain and simple-no respect for the job they are not doing in protecting my contract, my QOL, my seniority?..Everything. Our MEC keeps giving LOA's away and losing any position of strength we could gain by refusing LOA's. I do not know who is worse, Endeavor or its union leadership.

First, JS isn't in ALPA Legal Department, she's a Labor Relations Counsel. Different department. But she's absolutely top notch, despite your apparent disagreement with her.

 

[jynxyjericho]

could a membership put to a vote?" anyone with a conditional job offer at another company must disclose such offer and will be required to put in 2 month notice? 3 month notice .. or whatever. Otherwise will not be allowed to be a part of the union, in effect not being able to fly

Oh and I think our union's legal reps suck. JS actually had the nerve to say to me that I was wrong in my opinion of the quality of life of a pilot on reserve now, compared to when I was at Mesaba 7-8 years ago. Really Jane? Really? You bragged about all the hard work that you did, called me a liar (that my opinion was not based on facts) and yet failed to use your insight that you were arguing with someone who has spent the better part of 11 years on reserve! That our own legal reps seem to know our own QOL better than we do. Idiots. Plain and simple-no respect for the job they are not doing in protecting my contract, my QOL, my seniority?..Everything. Our MEC keeps giving LOA's away and losing any position of strength we could gain by refusing LOA's. I do not know who is worse, Endeavor or its union leadership.

I like you're posts a lot, we agree on much much more than we disagree, but I would ask you to reconsider your views on JS. She may be curt sometimes, but she's not a braggart. She's wildly talented and does deal strictly with facts, law, and leverage. Maybe she is wrong about some part of the reserve QOL you are describing, but is it possible you described it wrong? You can't always be sure you intended communication came out correctly.

 

[xjhawk]

I once shared a table at a union dinner with JS at a union function and respected her and her performance. But a while back when I went to the union to talk about a little relief for the reserves who in some cases have been on reserve for 10+ years. The response I got from our union leadership and JS was what took much of that respect away. I cannot respect someone who tells me my opinions are not supported by fact when I am the one living the life on reserve (when the discussion is about quality of life of our reserves). Call me a liar, tell me I don't know what I am talking about when all I am asking for is no more LOA's that take away from the most junior reserves putting more of the burden on them and giving to line holders or senior reserves. That is all I was asking. Their response to me was that I do not know what I am talking about, that we have a seniority system and the most senior gets the benefits, oh and the best response I got was I should down grade if I want a better schedule! Just lovely. Respect has to be earned. She lost that respect. But I get what you are saying, she is a good attorney, as good attorneys know how to screw people over and make themselves look good while doing it. I am sorry but that is just my past experience with her. We can disagree on this one subject.

G Lee, my apps are out and I do vent on here and generally I am doing okay. Soon the $hit sandwich will come when I have to commute to LGA under our rules and my QOL will be even worse commuting to reserve in NYC so I am preparing myself. Given in 11 years I have been through 2 bankruptcies, displaced 4 times, 1/2 my seniority stolen from my with lies from our union I think I have a right to complain once in a while. I am not the type of guy who walks around all bitter, but I will not forget being screwed so many times. When an opportunity presents itself, I will leave endeavor. But that opportunity has to be the right fit, until then I stay put and see when my SSP interview will happen. But given the chance I will leave here before my interview. Thanks for caring.

 

[xjhawk]

Oh and Lee, we all know the position Delta is in and we all want to be a part of that success. They are poised to pull ahead even further with their success, but I do not want to be in my current position where we do the work but are not rewarded for our work except with empty promises of hope and daily beatings that will continue until moral improves!

 

[Clutch]

Oh and Lee, we all know the position Delta is in and we all want to be a part of that success. They are poised to pull ahead even further with their success, but I do not want to be in my current position where we do the work but are not rewarded for our work except with empty promises of hope and daily beatings that will continue until moral improves!

Keep voting yes

 

[jynxyjericho]

I once shared a table at a union dinner with JS at a union function and respected her and her performance. But a while back when I went to the union to talk about a little relief for the reserves who in some cases have been on reserve for 10+ years. The response I got from our union leadership and JS was what took much of that respect away. I cannot respect someone who tells me my opinions are not supported by fact when I am the one living the life on reserve (when the discussion is about quality of life of our reserves). Call me a liar, tell me I don't know what I am talking about when all I am asking for is no more LOA's that take away from the most junior reserves putting more of the burden on them and giving to line holders or senior reserves. That is all I was asking. Their response to me was that I do not know what I am talking about, that we have a seniority system and the most senior gets the benefits, oh and the best response I got was I should down grade if I want a better schedule! Just lovely. Respect has to be earned. She lost that respect. But I get what you are saying, she is a good attorney, as good attorneys know how to screw people over and make themselves look good while doing it. I am sorry but that is just my past experience with her. We can disagree on this one subject.

Understood.

I haven't had the pointy end of the JS whooping stick put to me. I'm comfortable agreeably disagreeing, it's too bad is all.

I'd never want to be on the other side of the table from her. In my limited experience I've found her to be exemplary and fair.

 

[xjhawk]

Keep voting yes

What part of the bankruptcy process don't you understand? All of it? Or how about how we as a pilot group had a local MEC and National union advising us to vote "yes". I voted to leave in two years and believe me, I am trying.

 

[gojo]

Keep voting yes

Boy, you just can't pass up an opertunity to be a db

 

[jynxyjericho]

What part of the bankruptcy process don't you understand? All of it? Or how about how we as a pilot group had a local MEC and National union advising us to vote "yes". I voted to leave in two years and believe me, I am trying.

Statically speaking clutch will have his own bk to deal with at a company he works for. One of two thing will happen, he'll educate himself on the process and come to a logical and pragmatic conclusion, or he'll stay as pig headed as humanly possible. Either way, his opinions won't change facts.