Endeavor Flow for New Hires

[jynxyjericho]

Curious what everyone thinks about Endeavor's newest recruitment plan.

The company is going to go around the union, interview new hires with the promise they will flow to Delta. Nothing will be given to current pilots except the existing SSP. No pay increases for anyone because Delta still wants to push all the DCI carriers out of their Air Service Agreements (or capacity agreements, or whatever regionals now have).

So Endeavor/Delta believes that the current guys won't bail, I would think a lot of guys on the bottom would quit and try to get rehired, including our newest new hires who will be left out in the cold. Nothing personal to Delta, but if you're only going to lose 100-150 numbers on the list some pilots will just want to know if they'll flow someday or not immediately and goto plan B if the answer is "no".

Net upgrades should resume in about 17 months, if our fearless leaders are to be believed. New hires should upgrade after 3 years if the place doesn't shut down.

Is the industry really bad enough pilots will leave Eagle, XJT, Skywest, Republic, and other regionals to come to Endeavor for a flow? The company has said to pilots in crew rooms they fully expect to poach half of the pilots from Silver. They need to hire 30-60 a month forever going forward if they plan to staff 81 900's and 80'ish -200's.

I know nobody has a MBA who is currently a big shot at Delta, but for all you who like predicting the future, what say you?

PM's welcome.

 

[redflyer65]

Wow. What a shot to anyone hired recently.

 

[jynxyjericho]

Wow. What a shot to anyone hired recently.

Yeah... it seems like the strategy is designed only to bring in new hires at the expense of alienating current employees.

 

[xjhawk]

Your fleet plan is way off. at the most Endeavor will have 40 CRJ 200's (38 which will have their cabins refurbbed and the 2 new ones mesaba had). 81 CRJ 900's, deliveries stop at the end of this year and if their pathetic hiring plan works, Delta will order 30 more CRJ 900's. In other words, we have approx 1700 pilots now, the summer flying season is in full force, come the end of the summer flying, expect the mass parking of the CRJ 200's and since they will only need 1200 pilots, …..well, I think with the current atmosphere, a lot will leave and Delta will have a lot of issues keeping 1200 pilots. Most FO's I fly with are not thinking of going elsewhere, they are thinking of leaving the industry.

A new hire flow, or in this case, a flow in everything but a name as Delta will call it a conditional job offer. The current pilot group, especially the FO's will be even more jaded than what they already are. But our professionalism will not waiver. I am like most pilots here, I will continue to have my resume out there and if and when I get my Delta interview I will do my best. But until I get into class I will bail to United, American etc. Listening to what the company says is not the entire story, watching what they are doing and what Delta is announcing is the story where I think 1200 is the staffing number Endeavor will need. I think it will take 600 to hold the worst reserve line in new york while it will take 700 to hold reserve in MSP (our most senior base). For a former mesaba pilot, that could mean you need 15 years to hold FO in MSP (suck it ALPA as a 8 year colgan pilot can hold MSP captain and they never had a MSP base or a jet-those are our jobs).

For the new hires that are basically Delta pilots getting Endeavor pay for 3 years learning to be airline pilots and land planes, I will make sure they are very well trained on the radios and pulling the gear handle lol

 

[jynxyjericho]

Your fleet plan is way off. at the most Endeavor will have 40 CRJ 200's (38 which will have their cabins refurbbed and the 2 new ones mesaba had). 81 CRJ 900's, deliveries stop at the end of this year and if their pathetic hiring plan works, Delta will order 30 more CRJ 900's. In other words, we have approx 1700 pilots now, the summer flying season is in full force, come the end of the summer flying, expect the mass parking of the CRJ 200's and since they will only need 1200 pilots, ?..well, I think with the current atmosphere, a lot will leave and Delta will have a lot of issues keeping 1200 pilots. Most FO's I fly with are not thinking of going elsewhere, they are thinking of leaving the industry.

A new hire flow, or in this case, a flow in everything but a name as Delta will call it a conditional job offer. The current pilot group, especially the FO's will be even more jaded than what they already are. But our professionalism will not waiver. I am like most pilots here, I will continue to have my resume out there and if and when I get my Delta interview I will do my best. But until I get into class I will bail to United, American etc. Listening to what the company says is not the entire story, watching what they are doing and what Delta is announcing is the story where I think 1200 is the staffing number Endeavor will need. I think it will take 600 to hold the worst reserve line in new york while it will take 700 to hold reserve in MSP (our most senior base). For a former mesaba pilot, that could mean you need 15 years to hold FO in MSP (suck it ALPA as a 8 year colgan pilot can hold MSP captain and they never had a MSP base or a jet-those are our jobs).

For the new hires that are basically Delta pilots getting Endeavor pay for 3 years learning to be airline pilots and land planes, I will make sure they are very well trained on the radios and pulling the gear handle lol

My fleet plan? Good Lord I don't sign the stupid agreements and neither do you. This thread was meant to be about the flow, not the fleet plan.

When it comes to fleet plans; there's what line pilots plan and want, what Delta management plans and wants, and what Endeavor management plans and wants. Delta will always win, but they want Endeavor to fly AT LEAST 38 -200's and if Guum can't get it done I expect he'll see the door.

You believe whatever you want. Personally I listen to what the union, the company, and Delta say, observe the contradictions, and then try to find a reasonable middle ground that doesn't involve any magic or conspiratorial thinking.

Attrition and lack of hiring are the biggest issues we face, the ones that will probably shut us down. Endeavor needs a July miracle. Next week they announce the flow for new hires and pray to Jesus the class is full for July. Then they need a lucky break that people will stop leaving this dumpster fire.

What they don't anticipate, or believe is a real possibility, are line pilots going temporarily insane and shutting the place down effectively. It's possible guys will just be professional but if even 10% of the crew room super hero's follow through we're going to make the news.

 

[SpauldingSmails]

The concept of using a "sponsoring regional" has been batted around at Delta for a few years now as a recruiting pipeline for mainline. It took me a little while to locate the article, but I remember when this premise was rolled out. While it does not go into specifics of a flow program, it does line out a process for DAL to recruit people directly and then filter them through a university and then regional airline. This "flow" at Endeavor may be the first step toward building this pipeline.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/wats-2011-delta-ponders-pilot-sources-355820/

Outwardly, this appears to do two things. Allows DAL to staff it's regional feed with fresh pilots, and it allows DAL a continuous supply of new pilots whom they've had a relationship with over a period of years. This seems strikingly similar to how many European carriers hire. Your staffing shortfall may just have been the impetus for DAL to test their theory.

The question is, will this create an untenable labor situation at 9E?

 

[jynxyjericho]

The question is, will this create an untenable labor situation at 9E?

I would think so but it's going to be illegal job actions and that'll get squashed after a week.

 

[Indy319FA]

No surprise here. NWA tried something like this in the mid 90s and it failed miserably. They tried to send people from UND with 300ish hours to Mesaba (when Mesaba's hiring mins at the time were 1000/100 and you had to have an ATP to be competitive) with Northwest seniority numbers to build time at Mesaba. There were something like 6 guys before they cut off the program. Only a couple made it out of training, and those guys didn't last a year.

Every Captain these guys fly with and every Check Airman that doesn't have a flow will make life as hard as possible for these guys unless Delta gives the same to the other guys at Endeavor. If this proves true its going to be a chilly environment at 9E.

 

[jynxyjericho]

It's a haymaker, no doubt about it. Management is so confident itll work the guy who came up with the program thinks theyll build a statue in his honor. The disconnect is amazing.

 

[redflyer65]

It's a haymaker, no doubt about it. Management is so confident itll work the guy who came up with the program thinks theyll build a statue in his honor. The disconnect is amazing.

Maybe an annual award is in order too.

Who will be the first to when a 'Gummy'?

 

[jynxyjericho]

I think Guum-ball is staying out of it. It sounds like he's looking for substantive changes.

 

[xjgearbtch]

Glad I'm not there anymore. A disgruntled Captain, and Delta's golden child in the right seat?? That will be downright dangerous. Sorry guys you deserve better.

 

[jynxyjericho]

Eh. Que cer? or whatever.

 

[bafanguy]

The concept of using a "sponsoring regional" has been batted around at Delta for a few years now as a recruiting pipeline for mainline.

Allows DAL to staff it's regional feed with fresh pilots...

Saw that article when it first came out in 2011. The first paragraph is hardly a ringing endorsement of the concept:

"Delta Air Lines is considering a "blue sky" theory for how to meet future pilot demands. Called "CAPT," for Civil Airline Pilot Training programme, the carrier stresses the idea is conceptual in nature and that it is not committed to the implementation, nor is it engaged in discussions with potential sponsors."

And, that was before the law changed to the R-ATP and 1500 hr thing.

Even if people can get the hour reduction for the R-ATP from a university affiliation, doesn't the issue then become how to get these university folks from the 300ish, fresh CPL to the 1000/1250 hrs they need to be R-ATP/ regional-eligible ?

If so, how are they going to do that ? Just idle curiosity...not taking any position on the issue.

 

[MDWCrashPad]

Endevour/Delta cannot just give one deal to some of the pilots and another deal to other pilots. (Assuming they have a union.) All that must be part of the collective bargaining process. That is why there is a union in the first place.

 

[jynxyjericho]

Endevour/Delta cannot just give one deal to some of the pilots and another deal to other pilots. (Assuming they have a union.) All that must be part of the collective bargaining process. That is why there is a union in the first place.

Nope. Unfortunately in *this* case the CBA doesnt apply to new hires. Union has been on the phone with legal about this in the past. Although if you know something the experts don't, illaborate and I'll pass it on to my rep.

 

[MDWCrashPad]

The CBA applies to all but may give less protection to the new hires. If your legal is telling them something different then you need new legal.

In collective bargaining individuals give up their individual rights in exchange for bargaining as a group. The company is not free to give certain individuals things that are outside of the CBA. If they were then they would just choose their friends and pay them as they desire. The Company would then refuse to bargain in good faith and eventually let the union go on strike or lock them out. They could then eliminate the union.

The union and company are free to bargain. If the company needs to raise new hire pay to get pilots it needs to go to the union. The company cannot go outside the CBA and give bonus' to new pilots to come work for them without going to the union.

If anyone goes there thinking they have a path to Delta that is superior to those more senior he will be disapointed.

Anything payments outside the CBA needs to go to court an get an injunction.

 

[jynxyjericho]

The CBA applies to all but may give less protection to the new hires. If your legal is telling them something different then you need new legal.

In collective bargaining individuals give up their individual rights in exchange for bargaining as a group. The company is not free to give certain individuals things that are outside of the CBA. If they were then they would just choose their friends and pay them as they desire. The Company would then refuse to bargain in good faith and eventually let the union go on strike or lock them out. They could then eliminate the union.

The union and company are free to bargain. If the company needs to raise new hire pay to get pilots it needs to go to the union. The company cannot go outside the CBA and give bonus' to new pilots to come work for them without going to the union.

If anyone goes there thinking they have a path to Delta that is superior to those more senior he will be disapointed.

Anything payments outside the CBA needs to go to court an get an injunction.

No I think our legal is fine no matter how much bravado you fake.

 

[PCL_128]

The CBA applies to all but may give less protection to the new hires. If your legal is telling them something different then you need new legal.

In collective bargaining individuals give up their individual rights in exchange for bargaining as a group. The company is not free to give certain individuals things that are outside of the CBA. If they were then they would just choose their friends and pay them as they desire. The Company would then refuse to bargain in good faith and eventually let the union go on strike or lock them out. They could then eliminate the union.

The union and company are free to bargain. If the company needs to raise new hire pay to get pilots it needs to go to the union. The company cannot go outside the CBA and give bonus' to new pilots to come work for them without going to the union.

If anyone goes there thinking they have a path to Delta that is superior to those more senior he will be disapointed.

Anything payments outside the CBA needs to go to court an get an injunction.

Not quite. The way they get around it is by making the offer prior to employment at at the airline. Other airlines have gotten around the collective bargaining requirement for newhire bonuses in the same way. Make the payment or the job offer to mainline before the newhire's class date starts at the regional, and they aren't a member of the collective bargaining unit yet, so the CBA doesn't apply. If they were making the offer for a Delta number AFTER the pilot started class at Endeavor, different story. But since the number is being given prior to employment, the CBA doesn't apply.

 

[xjhawk]

could a membership put to a vote?" anyone with a conditional job offer at another company must disclose such offer and will be required to put in 2 month notice? 3 month notice .. or whatever. Otherwise will not be allowed to be a part of the union, in effect not being able to fly

Oh and I think our union's legal reps suck. JS actually had the nerve to say to me that I was wrong in my opinion of the quality of life of a pilot on reserve now, compared to when I was at Mesaba 7-8 years ago. Really Jane? Really? You bragged about all the hard work that you did, called me a liar (that my opinion was not based on facts) and yet failed to use your insight that you were arguing with someone who has spent the better part of 11 years on reserve! That our own legal reps seem to know our own QOL better than we do. Idiots. Plain and simple-no respect for the job they are not doing in protecting my contract, my QOL, my seniority?..Everything. Our MEC keeps giving LOA's away and losing any position of strength we could gain by refusing LOA's. I do not know who is worse, Endeavor or its union leadership.