Endeavor Flow for New Hires

[General Lee]

XJhawk,

Is there ANY way you can apply to JetBlue or Spirit or Frontier and just get away from Endeavor? I think you'll still have a good shot at any of the big 3 eventually if you want, but you sound like you are gonna explode. I want you to do well, and your current situation just doesn't sound healthy at all...


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[PCL_128]

could a membership put to a vote?" anyone with a conditional job offer at another company must disclose such offer and will be required to put in 2 month notice? 3 month notice .. or whatever. Otherwise will not be allowed to be a part of the union, in effect not being able to fly

Closed shops are illegal in the United States, so you can't force anyone out for any reason other than refusing to pay dues or agency fees.

Oh and I think our union's legal reps suck. JS actually had the nerve to say to me that I was wrong in my opinion of the quality of life of a pilot on reserve now, compared to when I was at Mesaba 7-8 years ago. Really Jane? Really? You bragged about all the hard work that you did, called me a liar (that my opinion was not based on facts) and yet failed to use your insight that you were arguing with someone who has spent the better part of 11 years on reserve! That our own legal reps seem to know our own QOL better than we do. Idiots. Plain and simple-no respect for the job they are not doing in protecting my contract, my QOL, my seniority?..Everything. Our MEC keeps giving LOA's away and losing any position of strength we could gain by refusing LOA's. I do not know who is worse, Endeavor or its union leadership.

First, JS isn't in ALPA Legal Department, she's a Labor Relations Counsel. Different department. But she's absolutely top notch, despite your apparent disagreement with her.

 

[jynxyjericho]

could a membership put to a vote?" anyone with a conditional job offer at another company must disclose such offer and will be required to put in 2 month notice? 3 month notice .. or whatever. Otherwise will not be allowed to be a part of the union, in effect not being able to fly

Oh and I think our union's legal reps suck. JS actually had the nerve to say to me that I was wrong in my opinion of the quality of life of a pilot on reserve now, compared to when I was at Mesaba 7-8 years ago. Really Jane? Really? You bragged about all the hard work that you did, called me a liar (that my opinion was not based on facts) and yet failed to use your insight that you were arguing with someone who has spent the better part of 11 years on reserve! That our own legal reps seem to know our own QOL better than we do. Idiots. Plain and simple-no respect for the job they are not doing in protecting my contract, my QOL, my seniority?..Everything. Our MEC keeps giving LOA's away and losing any position of strength we could gain by refusing LOA's. I do not know who is worse, Endeavor or its union leadership.

I like you're posts a lot, we agree on much much more than we disagree, but I would ask you to reconsider your views on JS. She may be curt sometimes, but she's not a braggart. She's wildly talented and does deal strictly with facts, law, and leverage. Maybe she is wrong about some part of the reserve QOL you are describing, but is it possible you described it wrong? You can't always be sure you intended communication came out correctly.

 

[xjhawk]

I once shared a table at a union dinner with JS at a union function and respected her and her performance. But a while back when I went to the union to talk about a little relief for the reserves who in some cases have been on reserve for 10+ years. The response I got from our union leadership and JS was what took much of that respect away. I cannot respect someone who tells me my opinions are not supported by fact when I am the one living the life on reserve (when the discussion is about quality of life of our reserves). Call me a liar, tell me I don't know what I am talking about when all I am asking for is no more LOA's that take away from the most junior reserves putting more of the burden on them and giving to line holders or senior reserves. That is all I was asking. Their response to me was that I do not know what I am talking about, that we have a seniority system and the most senior gets the benefits, oh and the best response I got was I should down grade if I want a better schedule! Just lovely. Respect has to be earned. She lost that respect. But I get what you are saying, she is a good attorney, as good attorneys know how to screw people over and make themselves look good while doing it. I am sorry but that is just my past experience with her. We can disagree on this one subject.

G Lee, my apps are out and I do vent on here and generally I am doing okay. Soon the $hit sandwich will come when I have to commute to LGA under our rules and my QOL will be even worse commuting to reserve in NYC so I am preparing myself. Given in 11 years I have been through 2 bankruptcies, displaced 4 times, 1/2 my seniority stolen from my with lies from our union I think I have a right to complain once in a while. I am not the type of guy who walks around all bitter, but I will not forget being screwed so many times. When an opportunity presents itself, I will leave endeavor. But that opportunity has to be the right fit, until then I stay put and see when my SSP interview will happen. But given the chance I will leave here before my interview. Thanks for caring.

 

[xjhawk]

Oh and Lee, we all know the position Delta is in and we all want to be a part of that success. They are poised to pull ahead even further with their success, but I do not want to be in my current position where we do the work but are not rewarded for our work except with empty promises of hope and daily beatings that will continue until moral improves!

 

[Clutch]

Oh and Lee, we all know the position Delta is in and we all want to be a part of that success. They are poised to pull ahead even further with their success, but I do not want to be in my current position where we do the work but are not rewarded for our work except with empty promises of hope and daily beatings that will continue until moral improves!

Keep voting yes

 

[jynxyjericho]

I once shared a table at a union dinner with JS at a union function and respected her and her performance. But a while back when I went to the union to talk about a little relief for the reserves who in some cases have been on reserve for 10+ years. The response I got from our union leadership and JS was what took much of that respect away. I cannot respect someone who tells me my opinions are not supported by fact when I am the one living the life on reserve (when the discussion is about quality of life of our reserves). Call me a liar, tell me I don't know what I am talking about when all I am asking for is no more LOA's that take away from the most junior reserves putting more of the burden on them and giving to line holders or senior reserves. That is all I was asking. Their response to me was that I do not know what I am talking about, that we have a seniority system and the most senior gets the benefits, oh and the best response I got was I should down grade if I want a better schedule! Just lovely. Respect has to be earned. She lost that respect. But I get what you are saying, she is a good attorney, as good attorneys know how to screw people over and make themselves look good while doing it. I am sorry but that is just my past experience with her. We can disagree on this one subject.

Understood.

I haven't had the pointy end of the JS whooping stick put to me. I'm comfortable agreeably disagreeing, it's too bad is all.

I'd never want to be on the other side of the table from her. In my limited experience I've found her to be exemplary and fair.

 

[xjhawk]

Keep voting yes

What part of the bankruptcy process don't you understand? All of it? Or how about how we as a pilot group had a local MEC and National union advising us to vote "yes". I voted to leave in two years and believe me, I am trying.

 

[gojo]

Keep voting yes

Boy, you just can't pass up an opertunity to be a db

 

[jynxyjericho]

What part of the bankruptcy process don't you understand? All of it? Or how about how we as a pilot group had a local MEC and National union advising us to vote "yes". I voted to leave in two years and believe me, I am trying.

Statically speaking clutch will have his own bk to deal with at a company he works for. One of two thing will happen, he'll educate himself on the process and come to a logical and pragmatic conclusion, or he'll stay as pig headed as humanly possible. Either way, his opinions won't change facts.

 

[sinkrate]

I have no argument that this isn't a slap in the face for current 9E pilots. Delta has clearly demonstrated they are willing to do more for pilots that aren't on the property yet than they are for their current employees. That tells you where you are in Delta's scheme of things. It stings but before you do something rash take a second and look at Deltas plan and ask 'is it going to work?' I doubt it and that's an even bigger problem.

Delta forced 9E into bankruptcy and then purchased them for one reason. RA said it was to 'reset the rates for the entire DCI system'. How is that going? BB and RAH told Delta to pound sand. Next year they will park the 41 ERJ's they currently operate for Delta. The pilots involved will get a raise when they go to larger equipment. It is becoming increasingly clear SKW/XJT/ASA is going to do the same. SKW will reset their rates they charge Delta higher next year and collect the back payment they will be due. Delta will then have the option to withdraw some or all of the AC they own from service with them. If they do the pilots will not go with them - SKW/XJT has plenty of other work for them. Compass just signed a new agreement with raises. So who is going to operate these AC if Delta takes them back?

It is no longer a buyers market for regional feed - it is a sellers market. Delta management has never dealt with this before and has no clue what to do. This time next year there will be an industry wide shortage of regional lift. That shortage probably will not be shared equally.

9E management has stated on several occasions Endeavors inability to recruit is impacting Deltas business plan for all the DCI carriers. That is how management looks at this problem - it is a recruiting problem - not a shortage of pilots willing to work for peanuts.

Time will tell. My bet is by next summer Delta will not have any 50 seat feed and will be looking at a shortfall of 76 seat feed. But they will never admit the problem is pay at the regional level. If this recruiting solution doesn't work watch for Delta trying to acquire another regional or sell 9E with a lot of strings attached. Of course if they sell 9E the SSP and EtD programs end.

 

[big shacks]

So to be eligible for the flow, one must be a Captain for 3 years? I'm completely confused...we are downgrading and have 7- 8 year FO's on property. By the time a new hire reaches captain...add three years and you're looking at 10 years minimum.

 

[1.3XVso]

Keep voting yes

Exactly! Keep voting yes, running to get on time,keep freaking bending over with no end. I have been quiet lately trying to control my blood pressure. What a sh!t show! Im actually sitting back and watching the show. Exactly what this airline deserves. I hope the fire keep on burning. And for those company 85% pilots i hope you go no where and burn with Endevour like you deserve.

 

[jynxyjericho]

xactly! Keep voting yes, running to get on time,keep freaking bending over with no end. I have been quiet lately trying to control my blood pressure. What a sh!t show! Im actually sitting back and watching the show. Exactly what this airline deserves. I hope the fire keep on burning. And for those company 85% pilots i hope you go no where and burn with Endevour like you deserve.

Lol. Hope all you want. Doesn't change the number that have left to jetblue, spirit, delta, and many many others.

-one yes voter

 

[1.3XVso]

Lol. Hope all you want. Doesn't change the number that have left to jetblue, spirit, delta, and many many others.

-one yes voter

Another sad day in aviation I guess.

 

[jynxyjericho]

Another sad day in aviation I guess.

Why because pragmatism works? Embrace it.

Do what 1000 other Endeavor guys did, fill out apps, network, leave that dumpster fire. If you can't right now, be patient it'll happen. There is time, life doesn't end at Endeavor.

 

[pipers]

I have no argument that this isn't a slap in the face for current 9E pilots. Delta has clearly demonstrated they are willing to do more for pilots that aren't on the property yet than they are for their current employees. That tells you where you are in Delta's scheme of things. It stings but before you do something rash take a second and look at Deltas plan and ask 'is it going to work?' I doubt it and that's an even bigger problem.

Delta forced 9E into bankruptcy and then purchased them for one reason. RA said it was to 'reset the rates for the entire DCI system'. How is that going? BB and RAH told Delta to pound sand. Next year they will park the 41 ERJ's they currently operate for Delta. The pilots involved will get a raise when they go to larger equipment. It is becoming increasingly clear SKW/XJT/ASA is going to do the same. SKW will reset their rates they charge Delta higher next year and collect the back payment they will be due. Delta will then have the option to withdraw some or all of the AC they own from service with them. If they do the pilots will not go with them - SKW/XJT has plenty of other work for them. Compass just signed a new agreement with raises. So who is going to operate these AC if Delta takes them back?

It is no longer a buyers market for regional feed - it is a sellers market. Delta management has never dealt with this before and has no clue what to do. This time next year there will be an industry wide shortage of regional lift. That shortage probably will not be shared equally.

9E management has stated on several occasions Endeavors inability to recruit is impacting Deltas business plan for all the DCI carriers. That is how management looks at this problem - it is a recruiting problem - not a shortage of pilots willing to work for peanuts.

Time will tell. My bet is by next summer Delta will not have any 50 seat feed and will be looking at a shortfall of 76 seat feed. But they will never admit the problem is pay at the regional level. If this recruiting solution doesn't work watch for Delta trying to acquire another regional or sell 9E with a lot of strings attached. Of course if they sell 9E the SSP and EtD programs end.

This is spot on. There is little doubt in my mind that Delta only needs Endeavour to hold on long enough to force SkyWest, Inc. into a rate reset. Million $$ question is will it work?

With a 5 yr. flow at best, how many of these 'golden' new hires will even see Delta in 2019?

 

[WMUSIGPI]

0 because on the current path, Endeavor won't live to see 2017, if that long.

 

[General Lee]

Think about it, all 3 legacies need to hire 5,000 pilots EACH within the next 7-10 years to replace retiring pilots only. Then throw in the LCCs, and there won't be enough pilots, period. The big 3 will start poaching pilots from the LCCs, and the LCCs will start hiring Regional FOs to try to keep them longer, hoping a lack of PIC will keep them around through an upgrade. They will add a training bond too (I think Frontier may have started this) to guarantee a few years on property. The other group that may fill in some hiring positions too could be the Expats that went overseas and figured out that their families wanted to come home or the Sandpit wasn't as hospitable as they had hoped. Regardless, it's gonna be interesting to watch. As the Regionals shrink the Big 3 are going to grab as many A319s or 717s as they can to cover the Regional routes.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[big shacks]

FO's submitting resignation letters in mass quantities. Epic failure...guaranteed this will just accelerate the Comair = Bendover process. It makes absolutely zero sense to stay here....even if you're a 6-7 year FO. Get out! Get out now! 37k ain't worth it...7 years you can't ever get back. Don't make it another 7