DW is mad at Jetblue

[wndshr]

You mean NOBODY working at JB is critical of some aspects of the system? That's a little naive, I think.TC

some aspects...sure...but most aspects....hmmm

when you get hired there is a lot of koolaid, but common sense must prevail after the first week of training!

bottom line: you should know what you are getting into BEFORE quitting your old job....right?

 

[8vATE]

Realistic??


TRUE representation?
do we do that by seat, seniority, domicile, commuter status, expectations, hair length, whether or not you got your head shaved with a goatee...



Oh...
I get it..

You want to be paid more for flying less..

Dream on dude.

The changes you are ranting about will never happen unless
we go to a flat rate for everyone and seniority is thrown out the window..

Why don't you go apply to MESA or a Legacy..?

 

[active_herk]

I've got something for the JetBlue commuters to think about. Since the FARs require a minimum of double the rest for the hours blocked in a duty period - with a minimum of 16 hours - it would appear to me that if this exemption went through, it would make it almost impossible to fly multiple days in a row. (Unless of course JetBlue is trying to get an exemption to this rule as well). Also, if you did fly multiple days in a row, you would have to fly the all day pairing on day one and then a night time pairing on day 2 (which would mess up the circadian rhythm, which would make you less safe). So in this instance, the commuters, while they may be working less days per month, would actually be gone the same if not more days per month, due to the fact that they would have to take a day off between trips.

 

[Dizel8]

"Since the FARs require a minimum of double the rest for the hours blocked in a duty period."

121.471: Domestic limitations.
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=a509372ccbba19d0b5afaf672b335ee0&rgn=div8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.4.19.17.11.2&idno=14

 

[General Lee]

Let's just continue to change all of the rules because we are now under "new competitive rules" and that is just the way it is. It is a new day I guess. The next thing you know, in addition to flying the plane, pilots will clean toilets..... How about just having one or two employees on each plane? That would save a lot of money for each airline, and those management bonus checks would be huge!



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Dizel8]

"and those management bonus checks would be huge!"

You forgot: The stocktraders would be happy

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

I just read your CP's Blue Kool-Aid propaganda letter to you disguising this exemption rule as some sort of contra-circadium quality-of-life golden egg.

You are fools to buy this garbage.

 

[Dizel8]

If jetblue had proposed changing the FAR max duty to 12, I am sure DW would condemn us as well.

I will remain passionately neutral!

 

[njcapt]

Not sure if it is true. Please let me know if it is.

Can an Aloha crew of 2 pilots take off from OAK and round trip Hawaii and back? Someone told me that is legal. International type rules.

More or less stressful (if true) than a trip from JFK-OAK-JFK....

just a thought....

Nope. International rules apply, gotta have an IO over 8 hours flight time. ATA does turns out of LAX, SFO, PHX, and SEA to Hawaii, and all of those flights have a third pilot.

Hey, Denver. Long time. Johan ALG 92-98. Sorry if I have it wrong.

 

[General Lee]

Let me get this right....Jetblue management wants some sort of 3rd pilot robot named "R2sleep2" to monitor the two JB pilots on their turns to LGB and wake them up near Jamestown on the Lendy Arrival on the return leg? Is that true? Maybe it can also continually say "Nice landing Captain.......Your FO is a douche.....Nice landing Captain.....give me more blue oil for my tummy......Nice landing Captain......"



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Dizel8]

Yeah, yeah, that's it I think they call them a IRO at DAL!

 

[Diesel]

man talk about get home itis.

All you hear is it isn't that bad because we're going home. Hey we're pilots we live on the road.

I'm going home so the day isn't that bad................

 

[V2+10]

I too was originaly against this proposed waiver. I will however continue to have an open mind until all data is researched and published.

With that being said, I challenge anyone to post the original scientific data that brought about the current 8 hour flight time rule that we currently operate under. I truly would like to know.

What makes 8 hours flight time some magical number? I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it has more to do with contracts, politics, and contract negotiations than any sort of scientific imperical data. Maybe I'm wrong, if not...Show me the DATA!

V2

 

[Cappy]

This "new" limit wouldn't apply in the situation you describe. It would only be for 2 leg transcons. I would not support it for a "regional" type operation. However it makes sense for the transcons. If it came with a 2 leg limit and a reduced duty day limit, would you support it?

This "limit" as you describe will only be transcon until the lawyers at JB or other carriers try to change the regs to mean "any" type of flying. Consider that airline managers know not the difference in flying three legs for 7.5 hours(which isn't hard) or eight legs at 7.5 flight hours. They will argue "What's the difference? Flight time is flight time...right!" These regulations were faught for with the lives of many professional airline pilots in the forties and fifties.

Whether you fly a DC-7 or A320 on autopilot for eight hours it is still eight hours. I am very concerned that airlines will push for changes that will affect our safety even further. Having been expossed to the rigors of flying eight hours and eight legs, I am vehemently opposed to this request by JetBlue management.

I have the highest regard for the JetBlue pilots and you are always welcome on my jumpseat. I have always had a very open mind to changes in contracts, regs, policy, etc. but this is truly a step in the wrong direction. We, as an industry group, have given over $15 billion to our companies in the form of concesions only to have the industry continue to falter for reasons not our own doing. I ask that anyone reading this thread to keep in mind that although technology has made the job easier we are still, like the first airmen before us, only human and subject to getting tired.

Fly Safely.

Mike

 

[G4G5]

It's just not safe and I defy any of you "pro extensions" folks to prove how it is adding or at the very least maintaining the status quo.

Lets face it. For someone to do a normal day light round trip to the coast the flight would have to depart at the earliest 7am. That's a 6am show or 5:30 in the crew parking lot. For many in the tri state area that is a minimum 4:30 wake up. Which if you are a west coast comuter is 0130 on your body clock.

Now the hypothetical flight Departs at 7am (assuming no mech, de-icing yada yada delays, I know, never happens) and takes 6 hours. It lands in LGB at 1300 est and takes 1 hour to turn. Now it departs LGB at 1400 est and takes 5:30. It now would arrive at 1930 est The crew's day ends at 2000 est. In the crew parking lot at 2030 home by 2130.

What typically is going on at JFK at 1930 lcl. Only the peak of the Europe push, never any delays? No need to be in peak condition for shooting an approach to mins during the busiest time of the day after flying 11:30 hours.

Now add in the fact that this is only day one. Let's remember that we are still allowed to do a 30 in 7.

So day 2 of your week consists of a JFK-FLL-JFK turn. Since you blocked in at 2000 est the night prior. You wind up on the 0900 est flight to FLL. What time do you need to get up to wind up at JFK for a 9am flt? 8 am show. 730 in the crew parking lot. Peak rush hour traffic allow 1 hr minimum. This all equates to a 6 am get up after you were lucky to get in bed by 2200 the night prior.

Now back to our 9am departure to FLL. 2.5 hours down, an hour turn and 2.5 back. You are back into JFK at 1500 est. Block out at 1530 in the crew parking lot at 1600, just in time to sit in peak NYC rush hour traffic, again.
Your 2 day flight total is now 11.5+5= 16.5

Now onto Day 3, crew scheduling just called guess what your the lucky reservist, Another JfK-LGB-JFK turn. All legal, because 16.5+11.5=28 hours in 3 days.

What if mgt throws in a 5 hour sit in FLL or their is a 5 hour traffic wx delay the day before your second round trip to the west coast? You could theoreticly depart for your day 2 JFK -FLL flight at 9 am get to FLL at 1130 and then sit for 5 hours depart at 1630 arrive JFK at 1900 lcl and still get called back for your day 3 turn JFK-LGB-JFK. Who protect the crew from this?

Who is going to stop a commuter from bidding this 3 day sequence to maximixe their time (28 +hrs in 3 days)? Who is going to stop that very same comuter who lives on the west coast from commuting on the red eye the night prior, starting this 3 day sequence from he// with minimum rest? Week after week.

Who is going to stop crew scheduling from jamming this down the throats of every bottom feeder reservist, month after month, week after week?

Who here is willing to put their family on the B6 aircraft of the crew that just did it's second west coast turn in 3 days (maybe the 3rd time they have done that same 3 day sequence that month). Arriving into JFK at peak rush hour, shooting an approach to mins and then hearing tower say, "Turkish 123 I said hold short"

Now back to the safety issue. Is anyone her actually going to tell me that some how this improves safety?