DW is mad at Jetblue

[Dizel8]

Yeah, yeah, that's it I think they call them a IRO at DAL!

 

[Diesel]

man talk about get home itis.

All you hear is it isn't that bad because we're going home. Hey we're pilots we live on the road.

I'm going home so the day isn't that bad................

 

[V2+10]

I too was originaly against this proposed waiver. I will however continue to have an open mind until all data is researched and published.

With that being said, I challenge anyone to post the original scientific data that brought about the current 8 hour flight time rule that we currently operate under. I truly would like to know.

What makes 8 hours flight time some magical number? I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it has more to do with contracts, politics, and contract negotiations than any sort of scientific imperical data. Maybe I'm wrong, if not...Show me the DATA!

V2

 

[Cappy]

This "new" limit wouldn't apply in the situation you describe. It would only be for 2 leg transcons. I would not support it for a "regional" type operation. However it makes sense for the transcons. If it came with a 2 leg limit and a reduced duty day limit, would you support it?

This "limit" as you describe will only be transcon until the lawyers at JB or other carriers try to change the regs to mean "any" type of flying. Consider that airline managers know not the difference in flying three legs for 7.5 hours(which isn't hard) or eight legs at 7.5 flight hours. They will argue "What's the difference? Flight time is flight time...right!" These regulations were faught for with the lives of many professional airline pilots in the forties and fifties.

Whether you fly a DC-7 or A320 on autopilot for eight hours it is still eight hours. I am very concerned that airlines will push for changes that will affect our safety even further. Having been expossed to the rigors of flying eight hours and eight legs, I am vehemently opposed to this request by JetBlue management.

I have the highest regard for the JetBlue pilots and you are always welcome on my jumpseat. I have always had a very open mind to changes in contracts, regs, policy, etc. but this is truly a step in the wrong direction. We, as an industry group, have given over $15 billion to our companies in the form of concesions only to have the industry continue to falter for reasons not our own doing. I ask that anyone reading this thread to keep in mind that although technology has made the job easier we are still, like the first airmen before us, only human and subject to getting tired.

Fly Safely.

Mike

 

[G4G5]

It's just not safe and I defy any of you "pro extensions" folks to prove how it is adding or at the very least maintaining the status quo.

Lets face it. For someone to do a normal day light round trip to the coast the flight would have to depart at the earliest 7am. That's a 6am show or 5:30 in the crew parking lot. For many in the tri state area that is a minimum 4:30 wake up. Which if you are a west coast comuter is 0130 on your body clock.

Now the hypothetical flight Departs at 7am (assuming no mech, de-icing yada yada delays, I know, never happens) and takes 6 hours. It lands in LGB at 1300 est and takes 1 hour to turn. Now it departs LGB at 1400 est and takes 5:30. It now would arrive at 1930 est The crew's day ends at 2000 est. In the crew parking lot at 2030 home by 2130.

What typically is going on at JFK at 1930 lcl. Only the peak of the Europe push, never any delays? No need to be in peak condition for shooting an approach to mins during the busiest time of the day after flying 11:30 hours.

Now add in the fact that this is only day one. Let's remember that we are still allowed to do a 30 in 7.

So day 2 of your week consists of a JFK-FLL-JFK turn. Since you blocked in at 2000 est the night prior. You wind up on the 0900 est flight to FLL. What time do you need to get up to wind up at JFK for a 9am flt? 8 am show. 730 in the crew parking lot. Peak rush hour traffic allow 1 hr minimum. This all equates to a 6 am get up after you were lucky to get in bed by 2200 the night prior.

Now back to our 9am departure to FLL. 2.5 hours down, an hour turn and 2.5 back. You are back into JFK at 1500 est. Block out at 1530 in the crew parking lot at 1600, just in time to sit in peak NYC rush hour traffic, again.
Your 2 day flight total is now 11.5+5= 16.5

Now onto Day 3, crew scheduling just called guess what your the lucky reservist, Another JfK-LGB-JFK turn. All legal, because 16.5+11.5=28 hours in 3 days.

What if mgt throws in a 5 hour sit in FLL or their is a 5 hour traffic wx delay the day before your second round trip to the west coast? You could theoreticly depart for your day 2 JFK -FLL flight at 9 am get to FLL at 1130 and then sit for 5 hours depart at 1630 arrive JFK at 1900 lcl and still get called back for your day 3 turn JFK-LGB-JFK. Who protect the crew from this?

Who is going to stop a commuter from bidding this 3 day sequence to maximixe their time (28 +hrs in 3 days)? Who is going to stop that very same comuter who lives on the west coast from commuting on the red eye the night prior, starting this 3 day sequence from he// with minimum rest? Week after week.

Who is going to stop crew scheduling from jamming this down the throats of every bottom feeder reservist, month after month, week after week?

Who here is willing to put their family on the B6 aircraft of the crew that just did it's second west coast turn in 3 days (maybe the 3rd time they have done that same 3 day sequence that month). Arriving into JFK at peak rush hour, shooting an approach to mins and then hearing tower say, "Turkish 123 I said hold short"

Now back to the safety issue. Is anyone her actually going to tell me that some how this improves safety?

 

[Dizel8]

But, and not talking about the raising of 8 hr limit, why do we, if fattigue is the issue, as I agree on that, still have the 16 hr duty time. We should work on getting that lowered, but see no progress on that front!

As we all know, some real bad pairing can be built with the current rules, so what are we going to do about it?

From a fattigue stand point, I think the day transcon would actually be better than 7 legs, 8 of hrs flying and 16 hours of duty. That does not mean I endorse, the sought after change, merely an observation.

If a change were made, that put a limit of number of landing a day, ie each landing reduces max duty by x amount, that would probably fall on deaf ears and would be fought, by the very same people who says it is fattiguing, since it would reduce productivity.

Further, it is to be noted, that strangely enough, the FAA has different rules between DOM, INT'L, Scheduled, supplemental etc., however, the body does not know the difference. In addition, current rules make no distinction between day and night flying, yet we all know, that night flying takes a big toll.

Maybe it is time, that the Feds take a good look at what NASA and the NTSB have been telling them for years and years.

 

[Dizel8]

G4G5, all excellent points, so why do we allow 16 hr duty days, even on the backside of the clock, why do we allow the RJ boys to do 7-9 landings a day in very congested airspace, yes, it is status quo, but is it safe?

 

[DaveGriffin]

P-3 is not Cool

I just read your CP's Blue Kool-Aid propaganda letter to you disguising this exemption rule as some sort of contra-circadium quality-of-life golden egg.

You are fools to buy this garbage.

Disregard all of the above......I am a P-3 Weenie!!*

*USN P-3 pilots are essentially undifferentiated from USAF pilots. They can't land on a boat. And they like it. That's not cool.

 

[G4G5]

Dizel8

so why do we allow 16 hr duty days, even on the backside of the clock,

I have not done a 16 hour duty day with just 2 pilots in a long time. Nor should the mgt at B6 force any of their pilots to do it. If B6 wants west coast turns do like every other major and what NASA reccomends. Add a a relief pilot.

why do we allow the RJ boys to do 7-9 landings a day in very congested airspace

This has been part of the status quo for so long, typically all 8 legs are not to high density airports. Most are from a hub to a lower volume less dense airport. Equating to half of the landings at lower work load airports. If an RJ crew is doing 8 legs a day their is no way that they will be departing from a hub airport at peak work load for 12 hours straight. Maybe 1/2 the time is peak.

I agree it's not the smartest but the RJ guys are not going to the FAA or their mgt asking to increase it to 10-12 landings per day.

 

[fulcrum]

This is nuts , hopefully all the spineless pilots at Jetblue will probably stand up to this insanity , they have no union to represent them. if the FAA allows this to go on where is it going to stop ?
Can you imagine the work rules if ALPA and the unions did not exist.
Fulcrum