DW is mad at Jetblue

[Huggyu2]

Kind of funny, I guess: when I was in the military, we did anything we could to grab another flight. Then, when I get in the commercial business, we do anything we can to avoid flying. What happened to the passion?
As for this new proposal, I'm certainly not knowledgable enough to see how this could really impact operations across all companies, but I do know that as long as I'm still working a 12 hour day max, I'd rather be flying as much of that 12 hours as I can. For me, it's all about max number of days off per month.

 

[InclusiveScope]

Don’t worry, ten years after the rule change, ALPA will quietly tell everyone they were the ones who got the deal done anyway. Remember the 3rd crew compliment issue?

The crew compliment comparison is very similar. ALPA insisted that it wasn't safe to have only two pilots. They insisted on having a FE sit on the jumpseat of a 737. They argued this was a safety issue. Same thing here. ALPA has a hard time dealing with change.

 

[InclusiveScope]

Worthless should also take a paycut like all his fellow pilots. Correct me if I am wrong, Doesnt he make 400K+/yr & perks?
ALPO!

Yes he does. Here is the compensation package:

http://www.pilotpensiondefense.org/Documents/ALPA%20Officer%20Compensation.htm

This is more about protecting his pay than anything else.

 

[FNG320]

How about 8 hrs. flight time and a 12 hr. duty day......That sounds better..

Sounds great, but can't be done. Only the top 10% of pilots get such a schedule. Not even JB can get the average productivity up to 7-8 hours. Like I said, it sounds great, but is not do-able.

However if you could do any two legs and get anywhere between 9-11 hours per day, in a 14 hour day, that would be great. Remember any two legs. Would not have to be a Transcon. How about JFK-FLL-LGB ron LGB-FLL-JFK. That would be about 9 hours per day and 18 for the trip. With a duty day of less than 12. One more good day trip and you have 26 hours in three days. Net result would be 80-90 hours in 10-11 days, with shorter duty days than doing four legs JFK-FLL-JFK-BUF-JFK to get 8 hours in a 14 hour day.

Now if you did true transcons, JFK-SEA-JFK and get 11.5 hours in 14 hours, and then do it again you get 23 hours in 2 days. Just add a 3rd day of 5-6 hours and get 29 hours in three days. Thats 85-90 hours in 9 days. with only 14 hour duty days.

Everyone needs to remember that the hours per pilot does not change (30 in 7, 100 per month, 1000 per year). Thus the number of pilots needed by each airline remains the same. But we become more productive and get more time off, more rest per layover and more days off. If you only want the minimum number of hours, you could get your hours in 7 days and have 23 days off! Sounds like a win-win-win-win for everyone.

Win for the pilot (see above), win for the company (reduces layovers, perdiem and hotel costs) helping with cost and saves your paycheck from cuts, and win for the unions by no reduction in the number of pilots to pay dues, win for the commuters as this waiver would not affect them. I guess the only loser are the guys who like to bid rigged trips as there would be no need to rig a trip. (but again saving the companies money and your job/paycheck)

But just my opinion...

FNG

 

[dlredline]

I find it interesting that DW is opposing the entire proposal sight unseen. Why is it unseen? Because the research has just now begun, and nobody knows the results yet! For all we know, it'll come back as a bad idea, but somebody should take a look at it. We all know that there are plenty of legal-but-stupid schedules that can be built under our current, unscientifically written, 50-yr-old regs. So why not take a top down look at actual pilot performance under such conditions? Beats holding up status quo as the gold standard when we all know it's nothing of the sort.

JB hasn't proposed any changes yet. Sure the research is with an eye towards possible flight/duty time modification, but it's far from arbitrary. The current 8 hrs/unlimited legs is totally arbitrary, but it's status quo so nobody questions it. As more than one person has pointed out, even 8 hrs is murder on an eight-leg regional airline schedule, but that's not what we're talking about here. Geez, wait for some hard numbers before trashing the whole concept. I'm not especially keen on the idea, but I'm willing to keep an open mind. I'm especially interested to see the kinds of operations that are currently legal-but-stupid (can you say "day sleep") but may be outlawed based on the results of this research. There is significant possible upside here.

Very thoughful post amoungst so much hysteria. I'm not particularily in favor of the idea, but wanted to keep enough of an open mind that I volunteered to be part of the testing to see the performance results myself. I've been very impressed with the commitment of the research firms and professionals taking a look at this. There has been no bias indicated either way, and the one commitment I keep receiving from both the medical professionals conducting the research and management is that if the data doesn't support the waiver, it will not be pursued further.

I'll be happy to honestly report here my impressions when the research is complete, which won't be until sometime in late May at the earliest. After flying every type of horrendous schedule imaginable over the last 24 years, I'm curious as to the results myself.

Red

 

[FNG320]

Can I get an AMEN?!?!

AMEN!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

PSA got exemption 3585. Next thing you know, everybody is doing it.

 

[IB6 UB9]

So a couple of years ago I work at a 121 company with ALPA on the property and we go DEN-LAS-DEN-CUN-DEN, blocked at 12.0...and we go MSP-MEM-Punta Cana-MEM-MSP, blocked at 12.0, a somewhat scheduled service at a supplemental carrier. I certainly didn't hear any of you union boys cat-calling from an anonymous source then! Now I work at JetBlue and we are being crucified because our management wants to explore this idea on 2 leg day trips to the west coast and back.

Just curious...how many of you would be opposed to this if your company thought of it first? Better yet...how many of you would be opposed if it wasn't JetBlue who came up with the idea? What if United thought of this a couple of years ago, or NWA? It's always the same group of guys...

 

[bestpilot]

Oh snap! Here we go AGAIN. Next thing you know, those Jetblue guys will want to change the laws so they can marry their sisters! What is next? How about an age 70 rule, followed by 45 in 7? Then, think about how much money you can leave your 8 grown up kids in Yonkers when you die at age 71? Awesome.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Duuude, how bouts we start workin on fixin this whole rest thing. How bouts your minimum rest is 9 hours ALWAYS. I can't be figurin out this reduced rest, followed by compensatory stuff. Why does the man make this stuff so frreakin hard. Just be makin it simple.

100 in a month?--Yeah, I'm diggin it.

1000 in a year?--Yeah, diggin that too!

8 Max in a day?--Look, as lon as you keep the other 2, then it's all good!

If it's minimmizin my commutes, and I'm gettin more days off, how am I gonna be dyin early in Yonkers (unless I'm gettin killed by Snake or Ty Guy).

Look, my brother from the Delta mother, I commute, so I'd be lovin to fly like 40 in 5 for like 2 weeks in a row, then kick back wit the brewskis for the rest of the month. (Even better would be to fly 5 of dem 9 hour flight time gigs) Duude, that's 45 in 7, but like 9*5=45, so if I'm workin 10 days, I can bag like 90 hours of pay???? FREAKING AWESOME...Just make sure you got a cool duty day, and if we can get this rest thing fixed, it would be groovy, baby, yeah.

 

[bestpilot]

Not to mention the fact that as long as the other stuff isn't touched, i.e. 30 in 7, 100 in a month, etc. you can end up having a lot more days off if your company uses you effectively.

The thing that REALLY REALLY REALLY needs to be changed is the dam duty day. 16 hours is completely absurd.....especially when 135 is 14 hours. Make it a 12 or 13 hour duty day with 9 or 10 hours of flying allowed per day, it would FORCE management and scheduling to use their crews more effectively, and everybody gets more days off.

Duuuude, you're pretty smart, bro, but I'm even sayin dat as long as the 100 in a month is like stayin, I'm cool with even tinkerin wit the 30 in 7 too. Gimmie a good duty day, but them keep me flyin so I can get the brew $. Then leave me alone for a week or 2 so I can chill with my brewskis!

Freaking great idea, Blue Dudes, Freaking awesome!!

 

[FlyChicaga]

Kind of funny, I guess: when I was in the military, we did anything we could to grab another flight. Then, when I get in the commercial business, we do anything we can to avoid flying. What happened to the passion?

The passion is still there for many. The problem is, we all have passion for time spent with our family and friends as well. For me at least, my love of my family and those I spend time with when not at work often overrides my passion for flying. I get my fill in a 3-day trip, then am very ready to get home.

We all know that should this rule get passed, it will not just apply to the two-leg days. The domestic majors will use it. The regionals will use it. Soon there will be 6 and 7 leg days in RJs flying 10 hours a day with 14 hours of duty. This is just the way things work. Let me ask you JetBlue pilots, would you be in favor of the change so you can do 2-leg transcons in one day, knowing on the flipside you'd also be doing 5-6 short-leg days as well?

Also I believe Exemption 3585 was started by Peoples Express, not PSA.

 

[Palerider957]

This is NOT a good idea. Yes, 9 hours, with a 12 hours duty day sounds good. however, you can bet (at least at the regionals) it will be "12 hours, up to 16 in the event of ATC or operational delay." Guess what? You are now flying 9 hours with a 16 hour duty day---guaranteed.


This whole rest converstaion is a joke. If the FAA really cared about "human factors" they would have listened to the NTSB many years ago. Crash after crash, after crash have listed pilot fatigue as a contributing factor, but nothing is done. I'm usually on board with the Jet Blue way of thinking, but this is outright foolishness.

Do you realize that commercial truckers have to have TEN hours of rest in the past 24, with NO reduced rest or scheduling BULLSH.IT. For a commerical trucker to NOT have rest (as documented in their logbook) is a misdemanor, punishable by ARREST.

For a trucker to be at rest, he pulls off to the side of the road in is quite literally at "rest" in 5 minutes. Airline rest requirement are laughable, at best. And if your company seeks to undercut them further, you will make a bad situation worse.

 

[labbats]

Funny that the two posts above me summed up exactly what I was thinking.

Way to go boys!

 

[WhiteCloud]

Good post Palerider, I'm sure JB has it figured out but, on the surface, 9 hours of flying in a 12 hour max duty day could really be tight if you have any difficulty (flat tire?) getting back out on the turnaround. Given a typical show time of 45 minutes prior and 15 minutes after and maybe an hour to turnaround on a long haul flight you're not looking at much time to fix stuff that goes wrong. In practice I think the JB pilots are looking at a longer actual duty day than a "scheduled" 12 hours assuming that they are good to finish if they are good to start.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Keep playing that limbo song......as the bar goes lower....and lower.....and lower...and lower....

 

[Dizel8]

I wonder how DW would react, if JB asked the FAA to decrease duty time limits as per FAR's, without changing the 8 hr rule?

I mean, reducing duty day to 14 or even 12 would be better for all, right, so would he object or would he endorse it?

At this time JB has NOT changed its stance in regard to the 8 hr limit!

They have commenced research on the circadian rhythm issue and after those facts are in, they will then determine their course of action. It is very possible, that they will not endorse changing the limits.

NASA has long recommended, that pilots be allowed to take short naps in the cockpit, however, the FAA has strenously disregarded this, even though it is practiced overseas and that it has been proven alertness is increased.

We all know, that rather nasty schedules can be built. Schedules, that while legal, are very fattiguing and that can wreak havoc on the body. The FAA and the airlines has been dragging their feet on this. DW even mentioned his dispproval for the lack of a NPRM. Before you go shooting from he hip and calling all JB pilots stupid, let's at least have a look at the data. Who knows, it may very well show, that changing the 8 hr rule is wrong, but that an overhaul is still needed, and this might prompt the FAA to finally take action, as they did with the Whitlow letter.

Am I for changing the rule, no, since either way it would not affect me, but I am interested in seeing the research done nonetheless.

 

[General Lee]

Duuude, how bouts we start workin on fixin this whole rest thing. How bouts your minimum rest is 9 hours ALWAYS. I can't be figurin out this reduced rest, followed by compensatory stuff. Why does the man make this stuff so frreakin hard. Just be makin it simple.

100 in a month?--Yeah, I'm diggin it.

1000 in a year?--Yeah, diggin that too!

8 Max in a day?--Look, as lon as you keep the other 2, then it's all good!

If it's minimmizin my commutes, and I'm gettin more days off, how am I gonna be dyin early in Yonkers (unless I'm gettin killed by Snake or Ty Guy).

Look, my brother from the Delta mother, I commute, so I'd be lovin to fly like 40 in 5 for like 2 weeks in a row, then kick back wit the brewskis for the rest of the month. (Even better would be to fly 5 of dem 9 hour flight time gigs) Duude, that's 45 in 7, but like 9*5=45, so if I'm workin 10 days, I can bag like 90 hours of pay???? FREAKING AWESOME...Just make sure you got a cool duty day, and if we can get this rest thing fixed, it would be groovy, baby, yeah.

What? Come on duuude. What other rules would you like to change so you can rest more at home? How about resting in the plane, both you and the Cap, and then autoland it back into Kennedy. That is what you will need to do after being a zombie. Nah, aint gonna work. How about that AA crew who crashed in LIT? They had a long duty day and many t-storms to contend with. Throw that into your LGB turn from JFK and YOU ARE DANGEROUS. Add huge headwinds in the Spring to LGB and huge T-storms or bad snow storms in the NE, and you are worthless. No thanks duuuude. Have a brewski on me---make it a Sam Adams....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Wasted]

I would imagine an exemption like this would allow JetBlue to get away with hirng fewer pilots. Is that good or bad?

 

[FoxHunter]

Problem is when you open Pandora's box and change duty times, all he11 can break loose when flight managers start optimizing scheds based on new rules.

JB might just send you to SEA and back...piece of cake you say... Well, you can bet FDX and UPS managers, along with every other competitive company, will exploit new rules with ZERO regard to pilot's health, wellness, or safety. I honestly believe your managers might not...but when you mess with LAWS designed to protect the rest of us you can create some real issues.

I'm a JB fan...but I'm 100% ALPA on this one. Cleaning jets? Cool...builds teamwork and esprit for some. I have no problem. If you don't like it, don't join JB. On the other hand, changing LAWS will ripple down to the rest of us.

Respectfully....an "optimizer" hater....

Albie:

The USA has the largest and most advanced aviation system in the world. Yet we have the worst flight and duty time limits you would be able to find. You can show up for a duty day at 9:00 AM and be scheduled to fly one one leg of 8 hours. You can also show up for duty at midnight, be scheduled for 6+ legs, and be legal as long as they do not exceed 8 hours block or 16 hours duty. That is a disgrace.

During the Tiger days on the DC8 we had a trip scheduled LAX-HNL-LAX. Legal because it was scheduled under 12 hours block, considered international by FARs, and flown by two pilots plus one additional crewmember, the FE. This was probably the most senior trip in the LAX DC8 bid pack. You had to work 7 days a month.

JetBlue should be granted the exemption.

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

This "new" limit wouldn't apply in the situation you describe. It would only be for 2 leg transcons. I would not support it for a "regional" type operation. However it makes sense for the transcons. If it came with a 2 leg limit and a reduced duty day limit, would you support it?

Only a fool could not see that this opens the door for additional change. Congratulations.