DW is mad at Jetblue

[a320drivr]

This could get very, very, very ugly.

 

[B-atch]

While we're at it, how about going from 8 hours bottle to throttle to 6 hours? With these longer days, you won't have time to drink as much on overnights. Also, the blood alcohol level should be raised from .04 to .25

Wy dont we just get rid of the drinking rule altogether.....Heck you can get a DRUNK pilot to do ANYTHING!!!!!

 

[Blue Dude]

I find it interesting that DW is opposing the entire proposal sight unseen. Why is it unseen? Because the research has just now begun, and nobody knows the results yet! For all we know, it'll come back as a bad idea, but somebody should take a look at it. We all know that there are plenty of legal-but-stupid schedules that can be built under our current, unscientifically written, 50-yr-old regs. So why not take a top down look at actual pilot performance under such conditions? Beats holding up status quo as the gold standard when we all know it's nothing of the sort.

JB hasn't proposed any changes yet. Sure the research is with an eye towards possible flight/duty time modification, but it's far from arbitrary. The current 8 hrs/unlimited legs is totally arbitrary, but it's status quo so nobody questions it. As more than one person has pointed out, even 8 hrs is murder on an eight-leg regional airline schedule, but that's not what we're talking about here. Geez, wait for some hard numbers before trashing the whole concept. I'm not especially keen on the idea, but I'm willing to keep an open mind. I'm especially interested to see the kinds of operations that are currently legal-but-stupid (can you say "day sleep") but may be outlawed based on the results of this research. There is significant possible upside here.

 

[AA717driver]

This is the camel's nose under the tent. Few managements are a benevolent as JB's. Before the ink is dry, other companies will be pushing the boundries.

Even at JB this will morph into a 1700 departure with a redeye return. Figure half of the guys who commute will do so on the same day before their first of three of these in a row (wouldn't that be great--29.5 in three days!).

"I'll just tough it out." Ok.TC

 

[wndshr]

i have a solution......


for those companies that DONT want to fly a two leg 10 block hour day....then they could use that union of theirs to reject the exemption! unions can do that.....right?

 

[atafan]

The thing that REALLY REALLY REALLY needs to be changed is the dam duty day. 16 hours is completely absurd.

I couldn't agree more!

I would be in favor of raising the 8 hour flight per day only if all max duty days are lowered to no more than 12 hours domestic.

I've flown many 10 plus flight hour days with IOs that did nothing but catch the movie and dine in the back with no more than 12 hour duty days, these were two leg days. I was much more tired flying 6 hours on a 15+ hour duty day.

Lower the max duty day from 16 to 12 hours and then we can talk about raising the max flight day.

ATA's current max duty day is 14 hours and that's too long.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

DW and his band of lawyers are opposed to anything they didn’t come up with or can’t get the credit for! Just one more reason ALPA's reputation is in the crapper.

This rule makes obvious sense for a 2-leg trip. We do Hawaii out and backs to the West Coast, and its no big deal. Although I’m 91K, working an extra hour to save 4 on a break is math I can agree with.

Don’t worry, ten years after the rule change, ALPA will quietly tell everyone they were the ones who got the deal done anyway. Remember the 3rd crew compliment issue?

 

[AnimalTale]

In my opinion,

Duane WORTHLESS should concentrate on how to preserve the industries pensions and the constant lack of job security before he starts blabbing his mouth.

Worthless should also take a paycut like all his fellow pilots. Correct me if I am wrong, Doesnt he make 400K+/yr & perks?


ALPO!

 

[njcapt]

How about if everybody goes back here and gets caught up on all the rationalization by the jetBlue pilots before we cover all the same stuff over again?

Please don't think that once the flight time door is opened, without some major overhaul of the flight/duty time regs, it won't be abused by every company not opposed by an effective collective bargaining unit.

 

[doh]

Inclusive,

AMEN!

 

[Huggyu2]

Kind of funny, I guess: when I was in the military, we did anything we could to grab another flight. Then, when I get in the commercial business, we do anything we can to avoid flying. What happened to the passion?
As for this new proposal, I'm certainly not knowledgable enough to see how this could really impact operations across all companies, but I do know that as long as I'm still working a 12 hour day max, I'd rather be flying as much of that 12 hours as I can. For me, it's all about max number of days off per month.

 

[InclusiveScope]

Don’t worry, ten years after the rule change, ALPA will quietly tell everyone they were the ones who got the deal done anyway. Remember the 3rd crew compliment issue?

The crew compliment comparison is very similar. ALPA insisted that it wasn't safe to have only two pilots. They insisted on having a FE sit on the jumpseat of a 737. They argued this was a safety issue. Same thing here. ALPA has a hard time dealing with change.

 

[InclusiveScope]

Worthless should also take a paycut like all his fellow pilots. Correct me if I am wrong, Doesnt he make 400K+/yr & perks?
ALPO!

Yes he does. Here is the compensation package:

http://www.pilotpensiondefense.org/Documents/ALPA%20Officer%20Compensation.htm

This is more about protecting his pay than anything else.

 

[FNG320]

How about 8 hrs. flight time and a 12 hr. duty day......That sounds better..

Sounds great, but can't be done. Only the top 10% of pilots get such a schedule. Not even JB can get the average productivity up to 7-8 hours. Like I said, it sounds great, but is not do-able.

However if you could do any two legs and get anywhere between 9-11 hours per day, in a 14 hour day, that would be great. Remember any two legs. Would not have to be a Transcon. How about JFK-FLL-LGB ron LGB-FLL-JFK. That would be about 9 hours per day and 18 for the trip. With a duty day of less than 12. One more good day trip and you have 26 hours in three days. Net result would be 80-90 hours in 10-11 days, with shorter duty days than doing four legs JFK-FLL-JFK-BUF-JFK to get 8 hours in a 14 hour day.

Now if you did true transcons, JFK-SEA-JFK and get 11.5 hours in 14 hours, and then do it again you get 23 hours in 2 days. Just add a 3rd day of 5-6 hours and get 29 hours in three days. Thats 85-90 hours in 9 days. with only 14 hour duty days.

Everyone needs to remember that the hours per pilot does not change (30 in 7, 100 per month, 1000 per year). Thus the number of pilots needed by each airline remains the same. But we become more productive and get more time off, more rest per layover and more days off. If you only want the minimum number of hours, you could get your hours in 7 days and have 23 days off! Sounds like a win-win-win-win for everyone.

Win for the pilot (see above), win for the company (reduces layovers, perdiem and hotel costs) helping with cost and saves your paycheck from cuts, and win for the unions by no reduction in the number of pilots to pay dues, win for the commuters as this waiver would not affect them. I guess the only loser are the guys who like to bid rigged trips as there would be no need to rig a trip. (but again saving the companies money and your job/paycheck)

But just my opinion...

FNG

 

[dlredline]

I find it interesting that DW is opposing the entire proposal sight unseen. Why is it unseen? Because the research has just now begun, and nobody knows the results yet! For all we know, it'll come back as a bad idea, but somebody should take a look at it. We all know that there are plenty of legal-but-stupid schedules that can be built under our current, unscientifically written, 50-yr-old regs. So why not take a top down look at actual pilot performance under such conditions? Beats holding up status quo as the gold standard when we all know it's nothing of the sort.

JB hasn't proposed any changes yet. Sure the research is with an eye towards possible flight/duty time modification, but it's far from arbitrary. The current 8 hrs/unlimited legs is totally arbitrary, but it's status quo so nobody questions it. As more than one person has pointed out, even 8 hrs is murder on an eight-leg regional airline schedule, but that's not what we're talking about here. Geez, wait for some hard numbers before trashing the whole concept. I'm not especially keen on the idea, but I'm willing to keep an open mind. I'm especially interested to see the kinds of operations that are currently legal-but-stupid (can you say "day sleep") but may be outlawed based on the results of this research. There is significant possible upside here.

Very thoughful post amoungst so much hysteria. I'm not particularily in favor of the idea, but wanted to keep enough of an open mind that I volunteered to be part of the testing to see the performance results myself. I've been very impressed with the commitment of the research firms and professionals taking a look at this. There has been no bias indicated either way, and the one commitment I keep receiving from both the medical professionals conducting the research and management is that if the data doesn't support the waiver, it will not be pursued further.

I'll be happy to honestly report here my impressions when the research is complete, which won't be until sometime in late May at the earliest. After flying every type of horrendous schedule imaginable over the last 24 years, I'm curious as to the results myself.

Red