Duane Woerth rumor... YGTBSM!!

[Rez O. Lewshun]

and haven't participated in an LEC election in 10 years.

If at all.....

Please provide your reasons for blaming ALPA, and Duane specifically, for the loss of your pension. Your pension was lost because of a corrupt bankruptcy system, immoral management, and decades of bad business decisions by Delta. ALPA merely played damage control and did the best they could for the pilots they represent.

Don't forget the fellow DAL pilots that voted for pension reduction!

DW had faults and strong points. Association are set up so that one person doesn't have an unbalanced amount of power and control. Certianly not to take away your pension.... it may feel better to blame one guy.... but let's save that for W.

 

[redwave]

Growing up in Base Housing doesn't make you an expert on DAL pilots. I lived there several years too. I know the difference between LEC and MEC and was a member of ALPO-PAC Chairman's club for several years. Why should I single out DW? He had his hands on the controls and was in the left seat when he ran it off the runway. Just like I would be blamed if I did the same in a real jet. You're right about the corrupt management too. I expected it from them but not from the group I paid thousands of $ to over the years to represent me. That representation ended the day I parked my last jet. The current DALPA gang sold the retired guys out and before it goes any further I didn't walk away with a $1M lump sum either. DW never took a 48% pay cut, lost over 50% of his pension, or was forced from the job he loved because of corruption. DW was sliding down the runway when he first touched down with US Air and United pensions--didn't do too much to stop the slide either. I tried to talk my fellow pilots into getting the retirement in OUR names but it
boiled down to more pay up front. More pay=more dues. Duh! We're paying for it now and I hope you young guys are watching. REDWAVE
PS Thx for calling him DW--he ain't no captain. ALPO & DAL can KMA

 

[waveflyer]

I think people are too quick to let leaders off the hook when bad things happen. "It was politics..." excuses. What has happened to the major airline career has been terrible. Who else could take the blame for that? Leaders don't blame- they perform. If they don't, they should be replaced. I hope every one has learned the lessons that airplanes don't fly without pilots... We need national unity- and national leadership... How about all pilots take a stand against one company's injustice?

Part of a leader's job is to maintain the connection with their group. They should be flying a round trip a month. Flying is my joy- my passion- it's what i'd be doing if i were a millionaire-- you stop flying and that's utter b/s-- you don't really represent me. Not enough time is the most common excuse ever made.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Growing up in Base Housing doesn't make you an expert on DAL pilots. I lived there several years too. I know the difference between LEC and MEC and was a member of ALPO-PAC Chairman's club for several years. Why should I single out DW? He had his hands on the controls and was in the left seat when he ran it off the runway. Just like I would be blamed if I did the same in a real jet.

Masterful second post.

We need national unity- and national leadership... How about all pilots take a stand against one company's injustice?

How about forming a pilot's union? a PILOTS union I said

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Growing up in Base Housing doesn't make you an expert on DAL pilots. I lived there several years too. I know the difference between LEC and MEC and was a member of ALPO-PAC Chairman's club for several years.

Coming to LEC meetings and giving dues money and PAC doesn't make you an expert in Washington DC affairs. It certainly helps but many pilots think that if they pay dues, contribute for 20 years that they are experts in dealing with the CapHill players.

At least you were engaged.....that says more than most...

Why should I single out DW? He had his hands on the controls and was in the left seat when he ran it off the runway. Just like I would be blamed if I did the same in a real jet.

Recall being a CA is administrative law. There is no democracy on a jet. Associations are over democracies. the ALPA president has to go thru the EC, EB and BOD. Lots of layers.... IN addition, the members at the airlines voted thru membership ratifaction to for those concessionary TA's. Those TA's came about from the negotiating committee.

You're right about the corrupt management too. I expected it from them but not from the group I paid thousands of $ to over the years to represent me. That representation ended the day I parked my last jet.

Is there corruption? Specifically where.

The current DALPA gang sold the retired guys out and before it goes any further I didn't walk away with a $1M lump sum either.

So is it DALPA or the past president?

DW never took a 48% pay cut, lost over 50% of his pension, or was forced from the job he loved because of corruption.

The presidents salary is determined by the BOD. When Prater took over he said he was willing to take paycuts...whatever the BOD determined. So the Presidents salary is based upon your fellow pilots...

DW was sliding down the runway when he first touched down with US Air and United pensions--didn't do too much to stop the slide either. I tried to talk my fellow pilots into getting the retirement in OUR names but it
boiled down to more pay up front. More pay=more dues. Duh! We're paying for it now and I hope you young guys are watching.

ok.. first you say DW then you talk about trying to convince your fellow pilots. Which is it?

REDWAVE
PS Thx for calling him DW--he ain't no captain. ALPO & DAL can KMA

No problem. Look I am not defending DW. My intent is to point out that all of this stuff is condeoned and approved by your fellow pilots...

 

[CopilotDoug]

we all know you get nowhere putting Descartes before the whores.

Yeah, I knew Rene. Whiney little b!tch, he was. First person to coin the term 'mullet.' Back then, they called it Le Neckwarmer de France.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Is there corruption? Specifically where.

Grinstein, Whitehurst, Smith, et. al.
At the expense of the employees

 

[waveflyer]

but what would you say if it was YOUR major carrier that went out of business over it?
It's our seniority system in it's current form that ties us so tightly to our companies. No other profession attempts to work and negotiate under this type of restriction. If we had a national (or hybrid) list- If we all got RID of 1st year pay-- I wouldn't be half as concerned as i would be now.


He's screwed either way... Personally, I believe we should have minimum contract levels set by ALPA and NOTHING gets signed without meeting them. If a company can't afford to pay? Too bad, they don't get to play. In every OTHER unionized business, that's how it works. Takes a lot of the worry about food-stamp wages out of the equation, but I digress.

That would be a start. We have to do something different. But you'd still have the question of what if you're company goes out of business trying to meet that min. contract? Then ALPA would be blamed for it and that would destroy unity even more. Seniority is being used against us in a terrible way. We have no unity b/c everyone has so much to lose. I'm railing on this, but until someone gives me an argument for why WE have set up our careers this way-- i'll have to keep it up. How many pilot's lives have to be turned upside down bc of this "marriage" to individual companies?

 

[~~~^~~~]

So does anyone know the answer? Is Woerth using the contacts he made while working for ALPA in the service of management now?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Grinstein, Whitehurst, Smith, et. al.
At the expense of the employees

My querey was if the was ALPA corruption. Glad to see you know where the issue is...

 

[CopilotDoug]

That would be a start. We have to do something different. But you'd still have the question of what if you're company goes out of business trying to meet that min. contract?

It's a necessary evil. Being pilots, we're some of the most resourceful people on Earth when it comes down to crunch time. A large percentage of our job involves keeping our own butt alive. Sure, you'd have an initial upset with carriers going out of business, but do people have such little confidence in themselves that they don't think they could find work elsewhere?

 

[CopilotDoug]

My querey was if the was ALPA corruption. Glad to see you know where the issue is...

Sorry, I just flat out wasn't paying attention.

Hmmmm, corruption...
Yes, I think a case could be made for corruption at the executive level. They've been influenced by the political system and in turn have compromised their integrity and values which got them elected into office. Commonly referred to on here as "Losing Touch with the Pilots"

Leave the politics to the politicians. Leave the job-action to the pilots.

 

[Inconceivable]

As one of the older types on here, I would gladly point out that it is DALPA who:

1. Gave away jet scope to CMR--the holy grail of our industry
2. Fought hard to keep RJ airlines second-class "non-operationally integrated" entities
3. Precipitated the DL BK by raiding the kitty with their pension buyout

But you know what? The DALPA folks who made those decisions are long gone, spennding this lovely saturday afternoon on their boats. So stop worrying about who did what.

Instead, ask yourself:

1. What should I be getting paid?
2. When is my contract amendable?
3. What am I willing to do about this?

Put your energy into educating your fellow pilots, writing your LEC, MEC and BOD, and (gasp) volunteering to do some work for your union.

Everyone love the phrase "Management signs my paycheck; the union fills in the amount." Well, man up and pick up the pen.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Instead, ask yourself:

1. What should I be getting paid?
2. When is my contract amendable?
3. What am I willing to do about this?

Put your energy into educating your fellow pilots, writing your LEC, MEC and BOD, and (gasp) volunteering to do some work for your union.

Everyone love the phrase "Management signs my paycheck; the union fills in the amount." Well, man up and pick up the pen.

Works for me!

I appreciate your comments.

 

[AC560]

Instead, ask yourself:

1. What should WE (my edit) be getting paid?


I agree with your spirit but the only way labor is going to be successful is worrying about the group as a whole. Most of the issues which confront organized labor today is the desire for people to watch out for themselves at the expense of others.

 

[Inconceivable]

noted!

 

[waveflyer]

It's a necessary evil. Being pilots, we're some of the most resourceful people on Earth when it comes down to crunch time. A large percentage of our job involves keeping our own butt alive. Sure, you'd have an initial upset with carriers going out of business, but do people have such little confidence in themselves that they don't think they could find work elsewhere?

I have no confidence problems-- The issue is that b/c of seniority and the concept of 1st year pay (I had to do it!)(Well i've had to do it 3 times now-- and i'm still at a regional-- looking forward to the 4th) Starting over at another company is so crippling, in $$ and lifestyle-- pilot's will do WHATEVER it takes to avoid it. Management knows this, has used this against us, and it has hurt every pilot in this country- some more than others-- but still ALL. Look at all the strife over AAA and AWA--That's one example. There are dozens. I won't even mention how many lives are just made more difficult by a bad commute b/c an airline closes a base.

We are ALL PILOTS. Private to military to regional to 73- to 777. WE ALL DO THIS JOB. Each of us has our particular skills and challenges that we successfully face every day. It all takes a certain courage most people don't have. WE NEED TO STOP THE EGO "I'M BETTER THAN YOU" NAME CALLING AND GET BACK TO A UNIFIED PILOT FORCE IN THIS COUNTRY!!

NOT ONE PILOT LEFT BEHIND.
in my opinion-- we can't have that kind of unity under the current seniority system... We all have too much to lose under it. Too easy to whipsaw us. We have to adapt. I'm open to suggestions- but we need a national list. We can't be so severely penalized for simply changing companies. Every time a pilot has trouble surviving-- we all lose leverage. Pilot's will always have that trouble with the way it's set up now. All of us live under the threat- and what does that do to our happiness?

I agree-- we are Resourceful-- But also prideful. If we could allow our resourcefulness to win that battle collectively- i'm sure we could figure out a system that worked better for everyone....

 

[waveflyer]

Inconceivable--

Well said

 

[Lear70]

Waveflyer, I agree with you wholeheartedly that a national union, a TRULY national union, would fix many of the problems that ail us.

There are a couple issues with this:

1. You'd have to change the base structure of ALPA, rewrite the bylaws, and then force them on ALL the ALPA pilot groups in order to succeed. Not just the majors, but ALL of the carriers.

So how do you go about doing that? How do you get management to go along with it? How do you get the pilots at ALL ALPA airlines in this country to go along with it?

It would be GREAT to come up with ONE pay scale for each type of aircraft, then force it on EVERY carrier, plus one National master seniority list and FORCE every major airline to hire the regional pilots at their existing 3, 5, 7, even 10 year seniority level with the pay that comes with it. Now how do you think management would respond to THAT being included in a contract? They immediately lose MILLIONS from hiring new pilots who start on higher pay scales. You'd be looking at strikes at EVERY major carrier to accomplish this. Do you really think the senior pilots would go for this? Which brings me to point #2.

2. There's too many "me" people out there to concentrate on unity for everyone. You'd get entire MEC's that would want to fight the system, and you might even get enough people to vote out the Leader of ALPA who tried to reorganize the system this way and go back to the way things were.

So how do you organize the massive changeover without fracturing the entire group?

3. The RLA isn't set up to let us do this. In fact, many of the base tenets of the RLA would go against much of what we would WANT to do with a true National union.

Specifically, job actions. Let's say you get everyone on board with this, and you go to negotiate your first contract. It goes down to the wire (believe me, the management of ALL the airlines will get together to fight this one), and the pilots have to go out on strike. Now you want the entire industry to go on strike. The RLA prohibits it.

Other airlines can strike certain duplicate routes, but that's it. So how do you propose we garner any real "strength in numbers" support from each other as one unified group?

I've said it once, and I'll say it again. Our REAL enemy is the RLA and the Administration in D.C. that won't allow it to be changed to support the workers, nor will they introduce any legislation that prohibits airline management from raping their employees or helps properly fund (and keep funded) pension accounts.

Until that changes (it won't), we'll continue to have these same problems over and over again, because we have NO power to affect any real change without violating the RLA, and no MEC will ever authorize that.

And before someone starts, ALPA-PAC and CAPA-PAC will NEVER be effective in changing any major issues. We just don't have the pockets to compete with the airline industry and the legislators that we're lobbying are all corrupt, just some more than others.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Hey! Can't we get back to the topic of hammering Duane?

C'mon, the guy was an absolute failure at protecting us from Cabotage, Foreign Ownership, outsourcing CRAF, changes to Age 60, any sort of FFDO program, the McCain-Lott "baseball arbitration" amendment, and other brilliant ideas from non-pilots.

(sigh)

Actually, he did a pretty lousy job of protecting us from each other and ourselves.

We could put Jesus Christ in that office and a large percentage of us would be squawking about his long hair, mocking his unwillingness to wear his hat, and blaming him when the Samarians get Scoped out of the wedding at Canaa.

Herding cats. Psychotic, egotistical, cats. Sounds like a fun job!

We've all got perfect solutions. Simple, direct, universal solutions. And all we need is a leader. We promise to follow him on 100% of the things we we agree with him on, and...um...(cough)...um...on the others?...well, that guy's crazy! He's selling us out! He's a scumbag! He's a ______ ! (insert your own scathing conclusion here).

Prater's honeymoon is already over because the industry hasn't bounded back in his first 5 months. If it does recover...he'll get no credit for it, cuz "it's his job!"

Duane got the "anti Al Haynes" treatment. Circumstances he didn't cause that no one had ever seen before...a "compound emergency". Al Haynes lost 100 innocent passengers...but saved more...by doing what he could. (The landing was not pretty) In Al's case, we consider him a hero. In Duane's...not so much.