Duane Woerth rumor... YGTBSM!!

[CopilotDoug]

I have no confidence problems-- The issue is that b/c of seniority and the concept of 1st year pay (I had to do it!)(Well i've had to do it 3 times now-- and i'm still at a regional-- looking forward to the 4th) Starting over at another company is so crippling, in $$ and lifestyle-- pilot's will do WHATEVER it takes to avoid it. Management knows this, has used this against us, and it has hurt every pilot in this country- some more than others-- but still ALL. Look at all the strife over AAA and AWA--That's one example. There are dozens. I won't even mention how many lives are just made more difficult by a bad commute b/c an airline closes a base.

Good post, Wave. When will people learn that it's not always a case of "What you make of it..." ? You can only start over from Square One so many times before you say, "This sucks!"

The change has to start from the top-down. Get the majors to agree on the same pay-rate for feeder service...and as each airline's contract date comes up, have them all set the amendable dates to the same year.

Hey Occam, is Jesus running for office?!? I'm not so sure about those sandals...pretty granola if you ask me. Most pilots won't identify with Prater or Woerth because of one thing: Money. You can point out his success against cabotage, you can point out the fact that he saves cute little puppies from the pound...but when it boils down to it, you have a regional pilot who has been with three different airlines so far asking what the hell this guy knows about pilot hardships. The man has two houses, for crying out loud! Prater has TWO houses while some pilots earn poverty level incomes???

To paraphrase a statement I read a while back, it was something to the effect of the best military commanders are the ones who are leading the group into battle (basically, lead by example) Unlike the majority of today's CEO's and politicians...

 

[Occam's Razor]

Hey Occam, is Jesus running for office?!? I'm not so sure about those sandals...pretty granola if you ask me. Most pilots won't identify with Prater or Woerth because of one thing: Money.

The Presidential paradox! We don't elect 23-year old, RJ F/O's to be our President because we want a leader who can operate on Capitol Hill, speak in the first-person to the legacy MEC's, and direct a large staff of professionals.

I think a lot of members don't appreciate what our Presidents do because they have no idea what our Presidents do! Sometimes, it's the things that don't happen that are testament to the effectiveness of our President. I got to watch a lot of that happen first-hand during Duane's tenure. If you think the pay and benefits package of our President puts him "out of touch" with the rank-and-file, then call all your reps who attended the 2006 BOD that set Prater's pay/benefit package. Make them accountable! (Note: The President can't vote on his package)

You can point out his success against cabotage, you can point out the fact that he saves cute little puppies from the pound...but when it boils down to it, you have a regional pilot who has been with three different airlines so far asking what the hell this guy knows about pilot hardships. The man has two houses, for crying out loud! Prater has TWO houses while some pilots earn poverty level incomes???

Both Duane and John started out as entry-level airline pilots. You think they didn't pay their dues?

Duane lost an airline to bankruptcy (Braniff I), and started out again at NWA in the mid-80's earning a flat $1,500 a month. John walked off his job during a strike and spent a loooong time on the street as a result.

That's dues, brother.

Let's put that Saab F/O in the President's office and send him to the UAL/DAL/NWA MEC's for an "I understand your concerns" presentation...and see how that goes.

There are very few "everyman" leaders out there who could step up and be ouir President. And NONE of them chose to be a candidate.

To paraphrase a statement I read a while back, it was something to the effect of the best military commanders are the ones who are leading the group into battle (basically, lead by example) Unlike the majority of today's CEO's and politicians...

I hear you! It was a concept I lived in the Marine Corps. My battalion commander slept in the same mud as the PFC's in the rifle companies, and insisted he eat the same chow they did...although he waited until they were all fed before he got in line.

But the military analogy breaks down when we hold it up to the mission. ALPA's mission ain't to locate, close with, and destroy the enemy by fire and maneuver... (and how come it isn't?) The Corps doesn't deal with divisive issues like Age 60...and when it encounters something even remotely similar, the "That's an order!" aspect of the military makes "unity" somewhat easier to achieve.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Sorry, I just flat out wasn't paying attention.

Hmmmm, corruption...
Yes, I think a case could be made for corruption at the executive level. They've been influenced by the political system and in turn have compromised their integrity and values which got them elected into office. Commonly referred to on here as "Losing Touch with the Pilots"

Leave the politics to the politicians. Leave the job-action to the pilots.

All wrong again Doug...

But tell us specifiaclly what is corrupt? Where is the logic that these guys are corrupt. Specifically what have they done. Spare us the rhetoric..

Not sure why you want a pilot in CapHill? Are there planes to fly on K street? You send a politican to do politcs...

 

[CopilotDoug]

I think a lot of members don't appreciate what our Presidents do because they have no idea what our Presidents do! Sometimes, it's the things that don't happen that are testament to the effectiveness of our President. I got to watch a lot of that happen first-hand during Duane's tenure. If you think the pay and benefits package of our President puts him "out of touch" with the rank-and-file, then call all your reps who attended the 2006 BOD that set Prater's pay/benefit package. Make them accountable! (Note: The President can't vote on his package)

All good points, no clean-cut solution anyway you look at it.

 

[CopilotDoug]

The Presidential paradox! We don't elect 23-year old, RJ F/O's to be our President because we want a leader who can operate on Capitol Hill, speak in the first-person to the legacy MEC's, and direct a large staff of professionals. I think a lot of members don't appreciate what our Presidents do because they have no idea what our Presidents do! Sometimes, it's the things that don't happen that are testament to the effectiveness of our President. I got to watch a lot of that happen first-hand during Duane's tenure. If you think the pay and benefits package of our President puts him "out of touch" with the rank-and-file, then call all your reps who attended the 2006 BOD that set Prater's pay/benefit package. Make them accountable! (Note: The President can't vote on his package).

***My previous post was not meant to imply we should have a 23 yr old regional FO in the office.***

Keep in mind, your above argument can be used to defend CEO's like Tilton. And yes, the pay and benefits DO put him out of touch with the pilots. I'm certain Prater cannot relate to the lifestyles the majority of pilots live, while he is getting chauffeured around D.C. Jusify it how you wish, but at the end of the day his pay and benefits DO elevate him above the rank-and-file. They afford him luxuries which alot of pilots cannot experience, and therefore, he will be viewed as an outsider.

ALPA needs someone in the office who is there for the right reasons. I am sure if you asked Prater why he is there, he would give you some well thought out reason about Union brotherhood, defense of airline pilots, Apple-pie, and Sunday's at the ballpark (blah, blah, blah.) This is all well and good, but is it REALLY why he is there? I doubt it, seriously. I subscribe to Doug's Rule of Business...Nobody will do ANYTHING unless it directly or indirectly benefits them. I submit he is there first and foremost for the pay and benefits. Still pay for his D.C. condo, but cut his pay and benefits in half and I guarantee you he'd walk. Honestly, I'd have respect for the man if he said, "Doug, I'm in it for the money and it looks great on my resume." But you're dealing with a politician, so whaddya expect?

Both Duane and John started out as entry-level airline pilots. You think they didn't pay their dues?

Duane lost an airline to bankruptcy (Braniff I), and started out again at NWA in the mid-80's earning a flat $1,500 a month. John walked off his job during a strike and spent a loooong time on the street as a result.

That's dues, brother.

These dues everyone speaks of...are you referring to luck? Because furloughs and strikes are luck...they're bad luck, but luck none the less. Show me an invoice labeled "Dues Owed"
It makes me laugh when someone attributes their airline career progression to some invisible and omnipotent force. It doesn't work with a seniority system.

There are very few "everyman" leaders out there who could step up and be ouir President. And NONE of them chose to be a candidate.

That is true

But the military analogy breaks down when we hold it up to the mission. ALPA's mission ain't to locate, close with, and destroy the enemy by fire and maneuver... (and how come it isn't?) The Corps doesn't deal with divisive issues like Age 60...and when it encounters something even remotely similar, the "That's an order!" aspect of the military makes "unity" somewhat easier to achieve.

But you need to make sure the message of the pilots is not getting watered down. ALPA needs representation fresh from the "front" as it were, to make sure the voices of the pilots are heard. ALPA may be throwing alot of money away because when it comes down to it, Big Business has deeper pockets (And more Lawyers)

 

[CopilotDoug]

All wrong again Doug...

But tell us specifiaclly what is corrupt? Where is the logic that these guys are corrupt. Specifically what have they done. Spare us the rhetoric..

Not sure why you want a pilot in CapHill? Are there planes to fly on K street? You send a politican to do politcs...

Ethical and Moral corruption. Just ask him why he took his Job for ALPA presidency. If it doesn't involve pay and benefits (of course it won't, he's holding himself to a "higher standard" going "Above and Beyond" for his "Fellow Pilot") then that means he was not up-front when it came to his campaign to get elected.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Ethical and Moral corruption. Just ask him why he took his Job for ALPA presidency. If it doesn't involve pay and benefits (of course it won't, he's holding himself to a "higher standard" going "Above and Beyond" for his "Fellow Pilot") then that means he was not up-front when it came to his campaign to get elected.

By who's measuring stick? Guys like you that have no clue and think ALPA is a silver bullet and smart bomb and a magic wand all in one?

Why would anyone want to give up 15+ days off to work 6 to 7 days a week for ungrateful and uninformed pilots? There has to be some incentive....

BTW the President is approved and paid via the BOD. So look at your fellow pilots not the president...

Doug- I'd like to think that you are learning and growing by particapting on these message boards... what do you think?

Rezfully Yours...

 

[Freight Dog]

One thing I'd like to see is our ALPA leadership still flying the line, even if it's one trip a month, even if it's an out-and-back.

You can try and sell me the political bullsh*t how they're too busy. You call it too busy, I call it out-of-touch with the people they represent.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

One thing I'd like to see is our ALPA leadership still flying the line, even if it's one trip a month, even if it's an out-and-back.

I agree, but it is not practical..... the time to be current and qualified to justify a once a month trip wouldn't be safe or time effective. In addition, when a trip is scheduled and a pressing issue comes up..should they defend your career or fly?

You can try and sell me the political bullsh*t how they're too busy. You call it too busy, I call it out-of-touch with the people they represent.

No, you call it "I want what I want when I want it" but the rest of the world doesn't wake up to make pilots lives easier. In fact, nobody cares about Air Line Pilots in Wash DC except our "politican Pilots".....

So, you want them flying the line or being the only ones that have any concern for you in the land that controls your career?

Quit trying to fit a round "how you think it should be" into a square hole. Just accept the rules as they are and work to become profiecient at the game...

Rezfully yours......

 

[waveflyer]

I disagree Rez-- Really- how much time does it take to be current and fly a round trip a month? I would die if i did that little flying. Not enough time is the most tired and used excuse in the world.

Do i really want someone who has so little resolve that they can't fly one round trip? So little passion for flying that they wouldn't want to? You talk about these guys as if they spend 24 hours a day working this ALPA job. Surely they take vacations, go to the gym, have a beer or two and spend time with their families. If you have time for that--you have time to fly a bit. Flying is my joy- my passion- it's what i'd do if i were a billionaire- i don't think it's too much to want someone in that office who feels the same-- oh-- and one who has enough talent and resolve to do it safely.

 

[PCL_128]

You talk about these guys as if they spend 24 hours a day working this ALPA job.

Yep, pretty much.

 

[waveflyer]

Yep, pretty much.

bulls**t

come on man- be real

 

[PCL_128]

bulls**t

come on man- be real

I am being real. You really can't imagine how busy the President is. When Rez says that these guys are working 7 days a week, he isn't exaggerating. Here's an example of a day in the life of the Association President (I was in Herndon on this day and observed it first hand):

8am-9am - Brief new union reps at Leadership Conference
9am-11am - Meeting with Nancy Pelosi to discuss ALPA issues
11am-12pm - Lunch
12pm-4pm - Meeting with AFL-CIO leadership
4pm-5pm - Conference call with Comair leadership about TA
5pm-6pm - Dinner meeting with new union reps
6pm-10pm - Q & A Forum with new reps
10pm-11pm - Conference call with Mesaba reps about BK claim
11pm - Finally go to apartment for 6 hours of sleep before starting it all over again

I spent that whole week in Herndon, and Captain Prater's schedule was similar every day. He's constantly meeting with lawmakers, fellow union leaders, managements, etc... He has rallies and picketing events to attend, briefings from legal and safety departments, testimony to deliver on CapHill, and the list goes on and on. If he took the time to fly a trip every month, then something will have to suffer from neglect. I'd rather have my President meeting with lawmakers than flying a 777 to LAX.

 

[waveflyer]

I would rather the president get results. Stay in touch. Show me that they have the same passion I do. Maybe he should delegate some of that schedule, and spend it with the people he serves. Spend it listening and showing us that he's listening. Spend it LEADING, not just representing. You can't lead if you're not credible. Noone will follow a pilot rep who doesn't even fly- much less fly the line. I can think of no recent time in aviation where the pilots have been so divided. If you don't think that LEADERSHIP is needed now more than ever, you're crazy.

Not enough time is an excuse. Nothing more. There is a level of results and performance that will satisfy us. And WE WILL FOLLOW a GOOD LEADER> Unity has to start at the top.

 

[Freight Dog]

I "rezfully" disagree with you. One way to "fix ALPA" is for our "leaders" to fly the line and get reacquainted with "reality."

Respect is earned... and our leadership ain't exactly earning it by further detaching itself from its members.

 

[CopilotDoug]

By who's measuring stick? Guys like you that have no clue and think ALPA is a silver bullet and smart bomb and a magic wand all in one?

Rez, I USED to think that, then I thought about it...and I understand ALPA's purpose. They are the finger in the hole of the dam. Only the hole is getting bigger and there is only so much ALPA can do to slow it down.

Why would anyone want to give up 15+ days off to work 6 to 7 days a week for ungrateful and uninformed pilots? There has to be some incentive....

Is that to imply he somehow has a greater value than John Q. Pilot? Where does his performance come into play? Alot of people get fired when they don't produce for their company. If this were Golf, his salary (based on performance) would be very low.

Doug- I'd like to think that you are learning and growing by particapting on these message boards... what do you think?

Rezfully Yours...

Rez, it's not a clear cut issue. I'm thinking about tomorrow. There has to be a paradigm shift or our Grandchildren will be having the same discussion we're having.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I would rather the president get results.

Results in a B777?

Stay in touch. Show me that they have the same passion I do.

Who says they don't have the same passion you do?

Maybe he should delegate some of that schedule, and spend it with the people he serves.

Everyone wants to talk to the point man.

Besides that is what the other three Officers are doing. The 1st VP travels abroad, the VP Finance works the books and talks to pilots, the VP Sec/Admin runs the by laws and works with LEC and MEC reps.

Spend it listening and showing us that he's listening. Spend it LEADING, not just representing.

He just did a Nationwide crew room meeting. What else? Prater told us at a meeting that he told his family to give him 6 months into his term and then he will reconnect with them. Perhaps you'd like eight or maybe 10 months?

You can't lead if you're not credible.

Aside from one issue... where is he lacking credabilty?

Noone will follow a pilot rep who doesn't even fly- much less fly the line. I can think of no recent time in aviation where the pilots have been so divided. If you don't think that LEADERSHIP is needed now more than ever, you're crazy.

You are sending mixed messages? Do you want him to lead or fly? How much leading can he do in a confined space going 8 miles/min at FL350?

Not enough time is an excuse. Nothing more. There is a level of results and performance that will satisfy us. And WE WILL FOLLOW a GOOD LEADER> Unity has to start at the top.

I am not sure what you want? You say lead and no more excuses, but what do you want? Specifically?

Unity at the top? Where you at the National Mall on Thurs? Prater was there. We had a weak showing of members. It was like an LEC meeting..over half of the pilots there were active volunteers.

The leadership is there... it is the followership that is missing.

Everybody wants a customized ALPA. They want ALPA to be their personal career servant. Well ALPA isn't going to do any better for anyone if no one particpates.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I "rezfully" disagree with you. One way to "fix ALPA" is for our "leaders" to fly the line and get reacquainted with "reality."

Respect is earned... and our leadership ain't exactly earning it by further detaching itself from its members.

Sorry- I think our leadership is there. It is the members who are out of touch. They don't even realize how ALPA and the poltical process works. The leadership is the gun and the membership is the ammo. The leaders are dry firing cause they got nothing....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez, I USED to think that, then I thought about it...and I understand ALPA's purpose. They are the finger in the hole of the dam. Only the hole is getting bigger and there is only so much ALPA can do to slow it down.

That is correct. Would you rather have no slowing it down? CorpAmerica has slaughtered labor in this country. It is just the way it is.... And not too many people seem to concerned. Air Line Pilots certainly don't.

Is that to imply he somehow has a greater value than John Q. Pilot? Where does his performance come into play? Alot of people get fired when they don't produce for their company. If this were Golf, his salary (based on performance) would be very low.

A greater value? Look around your crewroom. Everyone can safely fly a jet but who can address Congress? Being a poltician is allot different than being a pilot. ALPA pilots need a politicanin washington DC who knows pilots. We've got to offer a fellow pilot incentive to give up 15+ days off to go do the Wash DC grind...

Rez, it's not a clear cut issue. I'm thinking about tomorrow. There has to be a paradigm shift or our Grandchildren will be having the same discussion we're having.

Of course it is gray. What are you going to do about it? Complain about your leadership or support them?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Sorry- I think our leadership is there. It is the members who are out of touch. They don't even realize how ALPA and the poltical process works. The leadership is the gun and the membership is the ammo. The leaders are dry firing cause they got nothing....

It is exactly this attitude that is the problem. Blame this on the membership that pays the bills.... I see lot's of pictures of Hillary Clinton at the rally.... is that our solution Rez? If so, it is YOU that is out of touch...

We can't come together on issues of scope, mergers, or age-60.... how do you expect us to come together on the political process..... maybe we should get our house in order before we try to clean up the neighborhood....