Duane Woerth rumor... YGTBSM!!

[CopilotDoug]

That would be a start. We have to do something different. But you'd still have the question of what if you're company goes out of business trying to meet that min. contract?

It's a necessary evil. Being pilots, we're some of the most resourceful people on Earth when it comes down to crunch time. A large percentage of our job involves keeping our own butt alive. Sure, you'd have an initial upset with carriers going out of business, but do people have such little confidence in themselves that they don't think they could find work elsewhere?

 

[CopilotDoug]

My querey was if the was ALPA corruption. Glad to see you know where the issue is...

Sorry, I just flat out wasn't paying attention.

Hmmmm, corruption...
Yes, I think a case could be made for corruption at the executive level. They've been influenced by the political system and in turn have compromised their integrity and values which got them elected into office. Commonly referred to on here as "Losing Touch with the Pilots"

Leave the politics to the politicians. Leave the job-action to the pilots.

 

[Inconceivable]

As one of the older types on here, I would gladly point out that it is DALPA who:

1. Gave away jet scope to CMR--the holy grail of our industry
2. Fought hard to keep RJ airlines second-class "non-operationally integrated" entities
3. Precipitated the DL BK by raiding the kitty with their pension buyout

But you know what? The DALPA folks who made those decisions are long gone, spennding this lovely saturday afternoon on their boats. So stop worrying about who did what.

Instead, ask yourself:

1. What should I be getting paid?
2. When is my contract amendable?
3. What am I willing to do about this?

Put your energy into educating your fellow pilots, writing your LEC, MEC and BOD, and (gasp) volunteering to do some work for your union.

Everyone love the phrase "Management signs my paycheck; the union fills in the amount." Well, man up and pick up the pen.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Instead, ask yourself:

1. What should I be getting paid?
2. When is my contract amendable?
3. What am I willing to do about this?

Put your energy into educating your fellow pilots, writing your LEC, MEC and BOD, and (gasp) volunteering to do some work for your union.

Everyone love the phrase "Management signs my paycheck; the union fills in the amount." Well, man up and pick up the pen.

Works for me!

I appreciate your comments.

 

[AC560]

Instead, ask yourself:

1. What should WE (my edit) be getting paid?


I agree with your spirit but the only way labor is going to be successful is worrying about the group as a whole. Most of the issues which confront organized labor today is the desire for people to watch out for themselves at the expense of others.

 

[Inconceivable]

noted!

 

[waveflyer]

It's a necessary evil. Being pilots, we're some of the most resourceful people on Earth when it comes down to crunch time. A large percentage of our job involves keeping our own butt alive. Sure, you'd have an initial upset with carriers going out of business, but do people have such little confidence in themselves that they don't think they could find work elsewhere?

I have no confidence problems-- The issue is that b/c of seniority and the concept of 1st year pay (I had to do it!)(Well i've had to do it 3 times now-- and i'm still at a regional-- looking forward to the 4th) Starting over at another company is so crippling, in $$ and lifestyle-- pilot's will do WHATEVER it takes to avoid it. Management knows this, has used this against us, and it has hurt every pilot in this country- some more than others-- but still ALL. Look at all the strife over AAA and AWA--That's one example. There are dozens. I won't even mention how many lives are just made more difficult by a bad commute b/c an airline closes a base.

We are ALL PILOTS. Private to military to regional to 73- to 777. WE ALL DO THIS JOB. Each of us has our particular skills and challenges that we successfully face every day. It all takes a certain courage most people don't have. WE NEED TO STOP THE EGO "I'M BETTER THAN YOU" NAME CALLING AND GET BACK TO A UNIFIED PILOT FORCE IN THIS COUNTRY!!

NOT ONE PILOT LEFT BEHIND.
in my opinion-- we can't have that kind of unity under the current seniority system... We all have too much to lose under it. Too easy to whipsaw us. We have to adapt. I'm open to suggestions- but we need a national list. We can't be so severely penalized for simply changing companies. Every time a pilot has trouble surviving-- we all lose leverage. Pilot's will always have that trouble with the way it's set up now. All of us live under the threat- and what does that do to our happiness?

I agree-- we are Resourceful-- But also prideful. If we could allow our resourcefulness to win that battle collectively- i'm sure we could figure out a system that worked better for everyone....

 

[waveflyer]

Inconceivable--

Well said

 

[Lear70]

Waveflyer, I agree with you wholeheartedly that a national union, a TRULY national union, would fix many of the problems that ail us.

There are a couple issues with this:

1. You'd have to change the base structure of ALPA, rewrite the bylaws, and then force them on ALL the ALPA pilot groups in order to succeed. Not just the majors, but ALL of the carriers.

So how do you go about doing that? How do you get management to go along with it? How do you get the pilots at ALL ALPA airlines in this country to go along with it?

It would be GREAT to come up with ONE pay scale for each type of aircraft, then force it on EVERY carrier, plus one National master seniority list and FORCE every major airline to hire the regional pilots at their existing 3, 5, 7, even 10 year seniority level with the pay that comes with it. Now how do you think management would respond to THAT being included in a contract? They immediately lose MILLIONS from hiring new pilots who start on higher pay scales. You'd be looking at strikes at EVERY major carrier to accomplish this. Do you really think the senior pilots would go for this? Which brings me to point #2.

2. There's too many "me" people out there to concentrate on unity for everyone. You'd get entire MEC's that would want to fight the system, and you might even get enough people to vote out the Leader of ALPA who tried to reorganize the system this way and go back to the way things were.

So how do you organize the massive changeover without fracturing the entire group?

3. The RLA isn't set up to let us do this. In fact, many of the base tenets of the RLA would go against much of what we would WANT to do with a true National union.

Specifically, job actions. Let's say you get everyone on board with this, and you go to negotiate your first contract. It goes down to the wire (believe me, the management of ALL the airlines will get together to fight this one), and the pilots have to go out on strike. Now you want the entire industry to go on strike. The RLA prohibits it.

Other airlines can strike certain duplicate routes, but that's it. So how do you propose we garner any real "strength in numbers" support from each other as one unified group?

I've said it once, and I'll say it again. Our REAL enemy is the RLA and the Administration in D.C. that won't allow it to be changed to support the workers, nor will they introduce any legislation that prohibits airline management from raping their employees or helps properly fund (and keep funded) pension accounts.

Until that changes (it won't), we'll continue to have these same problems over and over again, because we have NO power to affect any real change without violating the RLA, and no MEC will ever authorize that.

And before someone starts, ALPA-PAC and CAPA-PAC will NEVER be effective in changing any major issues. We just don't have the pockets to compete with the airline industry and the legislators that we're lobbying are all corrupt, just some more than others.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Hey! Can't we get back to the topic of hammering Duane?

C'mon, the guy was an absolute failure at protecting us from Cabotage, Foreign Ownership, outsourcing CRAF, changes to Age 60, any sort of FFDO program, the McCain-Lott "baseball arbitration" amendment, and other brilliant ideas from non-pilots.

(sigh)

Actually, he did a pretty lousy job of protecting us from each other and ourselves.

We could put Jesus Christ in that office and a large percentage of us would be squawking about his long hair, mocking his unwillingness to wear his hat, and blaming him when the Samarians get Scoped out of the wedding at Canaa.

Herding cats. Psychotic, egotistical, cats. Sounds like a fun job!

We've all got perfect solutions. Simple, direct, universal solutions. And all we need is a leader. We promise to follow him on 100% of the things we we agree with him on, and...um...(cough)...um...on the others?...well, that guy's crazy! He's selling us out! He's a scumbag! He's a ______ ! (insert your own scathing conclusion here).

Prater's honeymoon is already over because the industry hasn't bounded back in his first 5 months. If it does recover...he'll get no credit for it, cuz "it's his job!"

Duane got the "anti Al Haynes" treatment. Circumstances he didn't cause that no one had ever seen before...a "compound emergency". Al Haynes lost 100 innocent passengers...but saved more...by doing what he could. (The landing was not pretty) In Al's case, we consider him a hero. In Duane's...not so much.

 

[CopilotDoug]

I have no confidence problems-- The issue is that b/c of seniority and the concept of 1st year pay (I had to do it!)(Well i've had to do it 3 times now-- and i'm still at a regional-- looking forward to the 4th) Starting over at another company is so crippling, in $$ and lifestyle-- pilot's will do WHATEVER it takes to avoid it. Management knows this, has used this against us, and it has hurt every pilot in this country- some more than others-- but still ALL. Look at all the strife over AAA and AWA--That's one example. There are dozens. I won't even mention how many lives are just made more difficult by a bad commute b/c an airline closes a base.

Good post, Wave. When will people learn that it's not always a case of "What you make of it..." ? You can only start over from Square One so many times before you say, "This sucks!"

The change has to start from the top-down. Get the majors to agree on the same pay-rate for feeder service...and as each airline's contract date comes up, have them all set the amendable dates to the same year.

Hey Occam, is Jesus running for office?!? I'm not so sure about those sandals...pretty granola if you ask me. Most pilots won't identify with Prater or Woerth because of one thing: Money. You can point out his success against cabotage, you can point out the fact that he saves cute little puppies from the pound...but when it boils down to it, you have a regional pilot who has been with three different airlines so far asking what the hell this guy knows about pilot hardships. The man has two houses, for crying out loud! Prater has TWO houses while some pilots earn poverty level incomes???

To paraphrase a statement I read a while back, it was something to the effect of the best military commanders are the ones who are leading the group into battle (basically, lead by example) Unlike the majority of today's CEO's and politicians...

 

[Occam's Razor]

Hey Occam, is Jesus running for office?!? I'm not so sure about those sandals...pretty granola if you ask me. Most pilots won't identify with Prater or Woerth because of one thing: Money.

The Presidential paradox! We don't elect 23-year old, RJ F/O's to be our President because we want a leader who can operate on Capitol Hill, speak in the first-person to the legacy MEC's, and direct a large staff of professionals.

I think a lot of members don't appreciate what our Presidents do because they have no idea what our Presidents do! Sometimes, it's the things that don't happen that are testament to the effectiveness of our President. I got to watch a lot of that happen first-hand during Duane's tenure. If you think the pay and benefits package of our President puts him "out of touch" with the rank-and-file, then call all your reps who attended the 2006 BOD that set Prater's pay/benefit package. Make them accountable! (Note: The President can't vote on his package)

You can point out his success against cabotage, you can point out the fact that he saves cute little puppies from the pound...but when it boils down to it, you have a regional pilot who has been with three different airlines so far asking what the hell this guy knows about pilot hardships. The man has two houses, for crying out loud! Prater has TWO houses while some pilots earn poverty level incomes???

Both Duane and John started out as entry-level airline pilots. You think they didn't pay their dues?

Duane lost an airline to bankruptcy (Braniff I), and started out again at NWA in the mid-80's earning a flat $1,500 a month. John walked off his job during a strike and spent a loooong time on the street as a result.

That's dues, brother.

Let's put that Saab F/O in the President's office and send him to the UAL/DAL/NWA MEC's for an "I understand your concerns" presentation...and see how that goes.

There are very few "everyman" leaders out there who could step up and be ouir President. And NONE of them chose to be a candidate.

To paraphrase a statement I read a while back, it was something to the effect of the best military commanders are the ones who are leading the group into battle (basically, lead by example) Unlike the majority of today's CEO's and politicians...

I hear you! It was a concept I lived in the Marine Corps. My battalion commander slept in the same mud as the PFC's in the rifle companies, and insisted he eat the same chow they did...although he waited until they were all fed before he got in line.

But the military analogy breaks down when we hold it up to the mission. ALPA's mission ain't to locate, close with, and destroy the enemy by fire and maneuver... (and how come it isn't?) The Corps doesn't deal with divisive issues like Age 60...and when it encounters something even remotely similar, the "That's an order!" aspect of the military makes "unity" somewhat easier to achieve.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Sorry, I just flat out wasn't paying attention.

Hmmmm, corruption...
Yes, I think a case could be made for corruption at the executive level. They've been influenced by the political system and in turn have compromised their integrity and values which got them elected into office. Commonly referred to on here as "Losing Touch with the Pilots"

Leave the politics to the politicians. Leave the job-action to the pilots.

All wrong again Doug...

But tell us specifiaclly what is corrupt? Where is the logic that these guys are corrupt. Specifically what have they done. Spare us the rhetoric..

Not sure why you want a pilot in CapHill? Are there planes to fly on K street? You send a politican to do politcs...

 

[CopilotDoug]

I think a lot of members don't appreciate what our Presidents do because they have no idea what our Presidents do! Sometimes, it's the things that don't happen that are testament to the effectiveness of our President. I got to watch a lot of that happen first-hand during Duane's tenure. If you think the pay and benefits package of our President puts him "out of touch" with the rank-and-file, then call all your reps who attended the 2006 BOD that set Prater's pay/benefit package. Make them accountable! (Note: The President can't vote on his package)

All good points, no clean-cut solution anyway you look at it.

 

[CopilotDoug]

The Presidential paradox! We don't elect 23-year old, RJ F/O's to be our President because we want a leader who can operate on Capitol Hill, speak in the first-person to the legacy MEC's, and direct a large staff of professionals. I think a lot of members don't appreciate what our Presidents do because they have no idea what our Presidents do! Sometimes, it's the things that don't happen that are testament to the effectiveness of our President. I got to watch a lot of that happen first-hand during Duane's tenure. If you think the pay and benefits package of our President puts him "out of touch" with the rank-and-file, then call all your reps who attended the 2006 BOD that set Prater's pay/benefit package. Make them accountable! (Note: The President can't vote on his package).

***My previous post was not meant to imply we should have a 23 yr old regional FO in the office.***

Keep in mind, your above argument can be used to defend CEO's like Tilton. And yes, the pay and benefits DO put him out of touch with the pilots. I'm certain Prater cannot relate to the lifestyles the majority of pilots live, while he is getting chauffeured around D.C. Jusify it how you wish, but at the end of the day his pay and benefits DO elevate him above the rank-and-file. They afford him luxuries which alot of pilots cannot experience, and therefore, he will be viewed as an outsider.

ALPA needs someone in the office who is there for the right reasons. I am sure if you asked Prater why he is there, he would give you some well thought out reason about Union brotherhood, defense of airline pilots, Apple-pie, and Sunday's at the ballpark (blah, blah, blah.) This is all well and good, but is it REALLY why he is there? I doubt it, seriously. I subscribe to Doug's Rule of Business...Nobody will do ANYTHING unless it directly or indirectly benefits them. I submit he is there first and foremost for the pay and benefits. Still pay for his D.C. condo, but cut his pay and benefits in half and I guarantee you he'd walk. Honestly, I'd have respect for the man if he said, "Doug, I'm in it for the money and it looks great on my resume." But you're dealing with a politician, so whaddya expect?

Both Duane and John started out as entry-level airline pilots. You think they didn't pay their dues?

Duane lost an airline to bankruptcy (Braniff I), and started out again at NWA in the mid-80's earning a flat $1,500 a month. John walked off his job during a strike and spent a loooong time on the street as a result.

That's dues, brother.

These dues everyone speaks of...are you referring to luck? Because furloughs and strikes are luck...they're bad luck, but luck none the less. Show me an invoice labeled "Dues Owed"
It makes me laugh when someone attributes their airline career progression to some invisible and omnipotent force. It doesn't work with a seniority system.

There are very few "everyman" leaders out there who could step up and be ouir President. And NONE of them chose to be a candidate.

That is true

But the military analogy breaks down when we hold it up to the mission. ALPA's mission ain't to locate, close with, and destroy the enemy by fire and maneuver... (and how come it isn't?) The Corps doesn't deal with divisive issues like Age 60...and when it encounters something even remotely similar, the "That's an order!" aspect of the military makes "unity" somewhat easier to achieve.

But you need to make sure the message of the pilots is not getting watered down. ALPA needs representation fresh from the "front" as it were, to make sure the voices of the pilots are heard. ALPA may be throwing alot of money away because when it comes down to it, Big Business has deeper pockets (And more Lawyers)