Duane Woerth rumor... YGTBSM!!

[doh]

Ok...that one's a Locke!

We should knock this off, Or well drive everybody away!

You won't drive me away, I'm laughing my ... off!:beer:

 

[Sig]

Ok...that one's a Locke!

I'd have a serious crisis logging the Hobbes time in my book when I soloed. I wasn't sure if I'd flown it or not, and Dalai'ed around the FBO like Assisi in a Godel afterward in a funk... fretting over the landing gear, fearing I'd Bentham. But hey, I learned later that we pilots have a ton of other things to worry about and Confucius to no end.

I gotta Goethe heck outta here; my wife wants to Schopenhauer or two and I can't waste any more time.

 

[PCL_128]

CC Air comes to mind. He refused to sign the contract after it was ratified by the membership.

The CC Air TA was negotiated in violation of the ALPA Constitution & By-Laws and Admin Manual. The company was never able to demonstrate financial need for concessions, and ALPA policy requires that before concessions can even begin to be negotiated.

 

[Falconjet]

Just read a rumor that Woerthless has accepted a position with NWA Management as a lobbyist... is this effin' true?? 73

This surprises you why?

FJ

 

[Occam's Razor]

I'd have a serious crisis logging the Hobbes time in my book when I soloed. I wasn't sure if I'd flown it or not, and Dalai'ed around the FBO like Assisi in a Godel afterward in a funk... fretting over the landing gear, fearing I'd Bentham. But hey, I learned later that we pilots have a ton of other things to worry about and Confucius to no end.

I gotta Goethe heck outta here; my wife wants to Schopenhauer or two and I can't waste any more time.

Wha-choo talkin' bout, Lewis! Emerson funny problems.

Everybody Wang Ch'ung tonight!

Occam <--couldn't leave him out!

P.S. I know John Galt. John Galt was a friend of mine. You sir, are no John Galt.

 

[Freight Dog]

The CC Air TA was negotiated in violation of the ALPA Constitution & By-Laws and Admin Manual. The company was never able to demonstrate financial need for concessions, and ALPA policy requires that before concessions can even begin to be negotiated.

Please tell me you're not serious...

Perhaps then you can explain why Duane signed Mesa's POS contract which was pretty friggin' concessionary.

 

[PCL_128]

Please tell me you're not serious...

Perhaps then you can explain why Duane signed Mesa's POS contract which was pretty friggin' concessionary.

Yep, dead serious. Mesa's contract may have been a POS, but it wasn't concessionary. Substandard? Yep, because they had to "buy" their scope language by giving up a lot of advancement in other areas to stop the Freedumb situation. Concessionary? Nope. The contract was definitely an improvement over their previous agreement. ALPA policy doesn't contain minimum standards that contracts have to achieve, but it does say that you can't engage in concessionary bargaining unless the airline has demonstrated financial need (usually through bankruptcy).

 

[Freight Dog]

Look.. you can take a sh*t. You can polish it, shine it, spray it with a nice deodorant, justify it as a natural need, you can put a nice fancy little bow around it, etc. It's still sh*t.

Mesa's contract WAS concessionary.

 

[PCL_128]

Mesa's contract WAS concessionary.

Alright, what exactly was concessionary about Mesa's contract? Describe how Mesa's contract is inferior to their previous agreement.

 

[N2264J]

Re: Duane Woerth rumor...YGTBSM!

The CC Air TA was negotiated in violation of the ALPA Constitution & By-Laws and Admin Manual. The company was never able to demonstrate financial need for concessions, and ALPA policy requires that before concessions can even begin to be negotiated.

Interesting that you should bring up ALPA policy. ALPA has a policy against alter ego airlines as well.

Is the fact that CC Air closed the doors a few months after Woerth refused
to sign this agreement (already ratified by the membership) an adequate
demonstration of a financial need?

Tell me again about the autonomy of the MEC.

 

[Freight Dog]

PCL... when a company makes money hands over fist while being able to pay out a sh*tload more, instead gives you 1% raise because you "buy" something, do you call it progress or do you call it getting concessionarily bent over?

With this rationale, I think we (ALPA) are in more trouble than I thought. You should have gone to law school. You'd make a case for assault in the first degree out of a friendly pat on the back.

 

[Lear70]

And how, exactly, were Mesa pilots supposed to stop the outflow of aircraft to Freedom? With harsh words and picketing?

If Mesa's agreement hadn't been signed, then they would have shortly been out of business just like CC Air and all the flying would simply have been transferred to Freedom.

ALPA is paying a HUGE price for ever letting Scope out of the bag, and things will never be the same. DW was always playing by the rules... TECHNICALLY... but the nasty contracts at several regionals and the concessionary contracts at the majors during the bankruptcies of the last decade have us all angry.

We can't point a finger at one person in management who is responsible, even though management, along with our Federal Government in bed with fat cat big business, is primarily to blame.

We DO, however, have a nice scapegoat to pin our anger on within the union structure. Most of us believe he should have fought harder, refused to sign agreements, and duked it out to the bitter end, but what would you say if it was YOUR major carrier that went out of business over it?

He's screwed either way... Personally, I believe we should have minimum contract levels set by ALPA and NOTHING gets signed without meeting them. If a company can't afford to pay? Too bad, they don't get to play. In every OTHER unionized business, that's how it works. Takes a lot of the worry about food-stamp wages out of the equation, but I digress.

 

[Vne]

you don't send a baseball player to a footbal game do you? Well, you don't send a pilot to play politics. You send a politician. Now it helps that our politicans are/were pilots..) he seems to lose a connection with the membership. This is common in general with the citizenry or membership etc...

Why then does ALPA use pilots as negotiators during contracts?
Hypocrisy or arrogance.........the standard airline pilot willingness to attempt anything, up to and including brain surgery, without the necessary study and reflection just because he flies jets.
yup!

 

[PCL_128]

Lear, best post you've ever made, without a doubt.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Why then does ALPA use pilots as negotiators during contracts?
Hypocrisy or arrogance.........the standard airline pilot willingness to attempt anything, up to and including brain surgery, without the necessary study and reflection just because he flies jets.
yup!

Because if unions raised dues 0.000001% to pay for professional negotiators the membership is complain....

What do you think?

 

[Lear70]

Because if unions raised dues 0.000001% to pay for professional negotiators the membership is complain....

What do you think?

Hell, you can up my 2.7% to 3.0% if you ABSOLUTELY PROMISE to bring in professional negotiators, give them the list of requirements, stand back, and STFU while they do their job.

If you need to talk to them about something, take a break into a private room, then send them back.

I agree 100% about letting the professionals do what they do and yeah, you can have some of my dues money to do it.

 

[Jonny Sacko]

Is Airtran ALPA?

 

[CitationLover]

Is Airtran ALPA?

no, inhouse NPA.

 

[redwave]

PCL:

Ask any retired DAL pilot (me included) what they think of Woerth-less. Please don't shame the rest of us by calling him Capt. I'm a Captain who lost more than 50% of my pension because of non-support from ALPA. When the dues are no longer being paid they could care less about you. ALPO can KMA!! REDWAVE

 

[PCL_128]

Ask any retired DAL pilot (me included) what they think of Woerth-less.

I live in Newnan, GA and grew up in Peachtree City, so I know many, many DAL pilots. Some of them hate Duane, some of them like him. The ones that hate him are usually the ones that don't know the difference between an LEC and an MEC, don't know what ALPA-PAC is, and haven't participated in an LEC election in 10 years.

I'm a Captain who lost more than 50% of my pension because of non-support from ALPA.

Please provide your reasons for blaming ALPA, and Duane specifically, for the loss of your pension. Your pension was lost because of a corrupt bankruptcy system, immoral management, and decades of bad business decisions by Delta. ALPA merely played damage control and did the best they could for the pilots they represent.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

and haven't participated in an LEC election in 10 years.

If at all.....

Please provide your reasons for blaming ALPA, and Duane specifically, for the loss of your pension. Your pension was lost because of a corrupt bankruptcy system, immoral management, and decades of bad business decisions by Delta. ALPA merely played damage control and did the best they could for the pilots they represent.

Don't forget the fellow DAL pilots that voted for pension reduction!

DW had faults and strong points. Association are set up so that one person doesn't have an unbalanced amount of power and control. Certianly not to take away your pension.... it may feel better to blame one guy.... but let's save that for W.

 

[redwave]

Growing up in Base Housing doesn't make you an expert on DAL pilots. I lived there several years too. I know the difference between LEC and MEC and was a member of ALPO-PAC Chairman's club for several years. Why should I single out DW? He had his hands on the controls and was in the left seat when he ran it off the runway. Just like I would be blamed if I did the same in a real jet. You're right about the corrupt management too. I expected it from them but not from the group I paid thousands of $ to over the years to represent me. That representation ended the day I parked my last jet. The current DALPA gang sold the retired guys out and before it goes any further I didn't walk away with a $1M lump sum either. DW never took a 48% pay cut, lost over 50% of his pension, or was forced from the job he loved because of corruption. DW was sliding down the runway when he first touched down with US Air and United pensions--didn't do too much to stop the slide either. I tried to talk my fellow pilots into getting the retirement in OUR names but it
boiled down to more pay up front. More pay=more dues. Duh! We're paying for it now and I hope you young guys are watching. REDWAVE
PS Thx for calling him DW--he ain't no captain. ALPO & DAL can KMA

 

[waveflyer]

I think people are too quick to let leaders off the hook when bad things happen. "It was politics..." excuses. What has happened to the major airline career has been terrible. Who else could take the blame for that? Leaders don't blame- they perform. If they don't, they should be replaced. I hope every one has learned the lessons that airplanes don't fly without pilots... We need national unity- and national leadership... How about all pilots take a stand against one company's injustice?

Part of a leader's job is to maintain the connection with their group. They should be flying a round trip a month. Flying is my joy- my passion- it's what i'd be doing if i were a millionaire-- you stop flying and that's utter b/s-- you don't really represent me. Not enough time is the most common excuse ever made.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Growing up in Base Housing doesn't make you an expert on DAL pilots. I lived there several years too. I know the difference between LEC and MEC and was a member of ALPO-PAC Chairman's club for several years. Why should I single out DW? He had his hands on the controls and was in the left seat when he ran it off the runway. Just like I would be blamed if I did the same in a real jet.

Masterful second post.

We need national unity- and national leadership... How about all pilots take a stand against one company's injustice?

How about forming a pilot's union? a PILOTS union I said

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Growing up in Base Housing doesn't make you an expert on DAL pilots. I lived there several years too. I know the difference between LEC and MEC and was a member of ALPO-PAC Chairman's club for several years.

Coming to LEC meetings and giving dues money and PAC doesn't make you an expert in Washington DC affairs. It certainly helps but many pilots think that if they pay dues, contribute for 20 years that they are experts in dealing with the CapHill players.

At least you were engaged.....that says more than most...

Why should I single out DW? He had his hands on the controls and was in the left seat when he ran it off the runway. Just like I would be blamed if I did the same in a real jet.

Recall being a CA is administrative law. There is no democracy on a jet. Associations are over democracies. the ALPA president has to go thru the EC, EB and BOD. Lots of layers.... IN addition, the members at the airlines voted thru membership ratifaction to for those concessionary TA's. Those TA's came about from the negotiating committee.

You're right about the corrupt management too. I expected it from them but not from the group I paid thousands of $ to over the years to represent me. That representation ended the day I parked my last jet.

Is there corruption? Specifically where.

The current DALPA gang sold the retired guys out and before it goes any further I didn't walk away with a $1M lump sum either.

So is it DALPA or the past president?

DW never took a 48% pay cut, lost over 50% of his pension, or was forced from the job he loved because of corruption.

The presidents salary is determined by the BOD. When Prater took over he said he was willing to take paycuts...whatever the BOD determined. So the Presidents salary is based upon your fellow pilots...

DW was sliding down the runway when he first touched down with US Air and United pensions--didn't do too much to stop the slide either. I tried to talk my fellow pilots into getting the retirement in OUR names but it
boiled down to more pay up front. More pay=more dues. Duh! We're paying for it now and I hope you young guys are watching.

ok.. first you say DW then you talk about trying to convince your fellow pilots. Which is it?

REDWAVE
PS Thx for calling him DW--he ain't no captain. ALPO & DAL can KMA

No problem. Look I am not defending DW. My intent is to point out that all of this stuff is condeoned and approved by your fellow pilots...

 

[CopilotDoug]

we all know you get nowhere putting Descartes before the whores.

Yeah, I knew Rene. Whiney little b!tch, he was. First person to coin the term 'mullet.' Back then, they called it Le Neckwarmer de France.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Is there corruption? Specifically where.

Grinstein, Whitehurst, Smith, et. al.
At the expense of the employees

 

[waveflyer]

but what would you say if it was YOUR major carrier that went out of business over it?
It's our seniority system in it's current form that ties us so tightly to our companies. No other profession attempts to work and negotiate under this type of restriction. If we had a national (or hybrid) list- If we all got RID of 1st year pay-- I wouldn't be half as concerned as i would be now.


He's screwed either way... Personally, I believe we should have minimum contract levels set by ALPA and NOTHING gets signed without meeting them. If a company can't afford to pay? Too bad, they don't get to play. In every OTHER unionized business, that's how it works. Takes a lot of the worry about food-stamp wages out of the equation, but I digress.

That would be a start. We have to do something different. But you'd still have the question of what if you're company goes out of business trying to meet that min. contract? Then ALPA would be blamed for it and that would destroy unity even more. Seniority is being used against us in a terrible way. We have no unity b/c everyone has so much to lose. I'm railing on this, but until someone gives me an argument for why WE have set up our careers this way-- i'll have to keep it up. How many pilot's lives have to be turned upside down bc of this "marriage" to individual companies?

 

[~~~^~~~]

So does anyone know the answer? Is Woerth using the contacts he made while working for ALPA in the service of management now?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Grinstein, Whitehurst, Smith, et. al.
At the expense of the employees

My querey was if the was ALPA corruption. Glad to see you know where the issue is...