Duane Woerth rumor... YGTBSM!!

[Occam's Razor]

It is exactly this attitude that is the problem. Blame this on the membership that pays the bills.... I see lot's of pictures of Hillary Clinton at the rally.... is that our solution Rez?

Red Herring. Substitute "taxpayers" for "membership" and take a number. Same cynicism...different suit.

We can't come together on issues of scope, mergers, or age-60.... how do you expect us to come together on the political process..... maybe we should get our house in order before we try to clean up the neighborhood....

Following your logic we should dissolve the United States because Americans are split on abortion, immigration, Iraq, and evolution.

How about we keep faith with the process...and try not to le the things that divide us distract us from what unites us.

 

[enigma]

It is exactly this attitude that is the problem. Blame this on the membership that pays the bills.... I see lot's of pictures of Hillary Clinton at the rally.... is that our solution Rez? If so, it is YOU that is out of touch...

.

There were no pictures of Hillary at OUR rally. Our only prop was the big rat. The Hillary pics were down at the IAM rally. ALPA did attend the IAM rally, but didn't organize it.

And, sadly, when you subtract the MEC members, SPSC members, National SPSC Committee members, National Officers and Staff from the attendence, you end up with a very small number of line pilots taking the time to attend.

 

[CopilotDoug]

That is correct. Would you rather have no slowing it down? CorpAmerica has slaughtered labor in this country. It is just the way it is.... And not too many people seem to concerned. Air Line Pilots certainly don't?

I do agree...something is better than nothing. My outlook of ALPA has changed...ALPA is not a Union. ALPA is a political entity which dictates to a conglomerate of pilot groups, each with different goals. ALPA is a third party consultant which Airlines can hire to provide services with varying results at each airline. ALPA only loosely resembles a Union. Not to imply this is bad in any way...it just is what it is.

A greater value? Look around your crewroom. Everyone can safely fly a jet but who can address Congress? Being a poltician is allot different than being a pilot. ALPA pilots need a politican in washington DC who knows pilots. We've got to offer a fellow pilot incentive to give up 15+ days off to go do the Wash DC grind...

Like you said, he's a politician, he is not a fellow pilot anymore. He left the line because for whatever reason, he sees additional benefits and improvement for himself in politics. Sadly, over time ALPA pilots will see that Prater's campaign spearheaded by the phrase "Takin' It Back" was nothing more than talk...which is what politicians are experts at.

Of course it is gray. What are you going to do about it? Complain about your leadership or support them?

I think the term Leadership implies someone is following. As has been stated...not too many are following. I think the idea of ALPA has to be changed. Again, I submit that ALPA is just a contracted service which is not to be mistaken for an entity which binds its subscribers in any way. And this needs to be clarified among the members, so as not to mislead them or give them fals-hopes.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It is exactly this attitude that is the problem. Blame this on the membership that pays the bills.... I see lot's of pictures of Hillary Clinton at the rally.... is that our solution Rez? If so, it is YOU that is out of touch...

Why do you say that based on the above reply?

I am not a Hilary fan but the biotch is going to vote on pilot legislation.. do you want her to vote for or against pilot legislation?

We can't come together on issues of scope, mergers, or age-60.... how do you expect us to come together on the political process..... maybe we should get our house in order before we try to clean up the neighborhood....

I agree. Too bad nobody is home. Meaning we can;t get our house together if no one particpates in ALPA. In addition guys like you that sue ALPA create divisiveness. But you don't seem to care about that.. you just want ALPA to be your individual represntation, not a collective effort.

Sorry Joe, try again....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

And, sadly, when you subtract the MEC members, SPSC members, National SPSC Committee members, National Officers and Staff from the attendence, you end up with a very small number of line pilots taking the time to attend.

A very accurate observation. I will say though that the Air Line Pilots looked good and stood out in full uniform.

It really is a shame that pilots don't care to be involved in thier own careers...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I do agree...something is better than nothing. My outlook of ALPA has changed...ALPA is not a Union. ALPA is a political entity which dictates to a conglomerate of pilot groups, each with different goals. ALPA is a third party consultant which Airlines can hire to provide services with varying results at each airline. ALPA only loosely resembles a Union. Not to imply this is bad in any way...it just is what it is.

Sounds like you are coming around to reality. ALPA was always this. For some reason Pilots believed and created expectations that ALPA was something different. Not sure why, but they only get disapointed.

I think we can make ALPA more effective, but it will take the membership getting involved. Too bad cause everyone else thinks the leadership need to do more. Are there eight days in a week? IF so, the membership would expect the leadership to do exactly that before they give up one day a week.

Like you said, he's a politician, he is not a fellow pilot anymore.

No. he is still a fellow pilot. Just because he goes to WashDC to represent you makes him less of a pilot? Less than the pilot group? That is insulting.

He left the line because for whatever reason, he sees additional benefits and improvement for himself in politics.

This is a bad thing? Why?

Sadly, over time ALPA pilots will see that Prater's campaign spearheaded by the phrase "Takin' It Back" was nothing more than talk...which is what politicians are experts at.

What do you want him to say? "keep giving it up"? He is trying to motivate guys like you to be a postive contribution to this profession instead of a cynical sandbag.

I think the term Leadership implies someone is following.

It sure does and with low LEC attendance, low rally attendance, low voter partication...just simply..low membership involvement, where is the follwership? How can you lead when no one is there?

At the May 17th Rally, there were about 100 pilots there representing 60,000. That is .16% yes POINT ONE SIX PERCENT.

As has been stated...not too many are following. I think the idea of ALPA has to be changed.

It sure does. How can you change when the membership doesn't particapte.

Again, I submit that ALPA is just a contracted service which is not to be mistaken for an entity which binds its subscribers in any way. And this needs to be clarified among the members, so as not to mislead them or give them fals-hopes.

Get them to show to a meeting so we can clarify!

We can argue as much as you want, but it begins and ends with the membership.

 

[CopilotDoug]

For one: I don't see this as an argument as much as a discussion, but moving on...

Sounds like you are coming around to reality. ALPA was always this. For some reason Pilots believed and created expectations that ALPA was something different. Not sure why, but they only get disapointed.

Is it accurate to say pilots are concerned primarily with Pay, Benefits, and Schedule?

I think we can make ALPA more effective, but it will take the membership getting involved. Too bad cause everyone else thinks the leadership need to do more. Are there eight days in a week? IF so, the membership would expect the leadership to do exactly that before they give up one day a week.

Hey, I'm not going to knock the guys who were at the rally. But who did that benefit? The Public doesn't care about pilots and management certainly doesn't either. In theory, what if you did have 50% of the pilots out there (Probably not likely with pilots flying and sitting reserve...) but just in theory...what would it prove and to who?

No. he is still a fellow pilot. Just because he goes to WashDC to represent you makes him less of a pilot? Less than the pilot group? That is insulting.

He WAS a pilot. He's a politician now.

This is a bad thing? Why?

It's about him. He has his a$$ covered and doesn't have to endure the possibility of further paycuts for a couple more years. Clearly walking in step with the rank and file...(you see where the disconnect starts?) Blame the disconnect on the members as much as you want, but it's the members that hold the key to ALPA's power. It just is what it is.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Is it accurate to say pilots are concerned primarily with Pay, Benefits, and Schedule?

It is accurate to say that [ALPA] pilots function as independent contractors. They are concerned for thier individual well being.. not the collective.

Hey, I'm not going to knock the guys who were at the rally. But who did that benefit?

You've just proved my point. You see no value in the Rally, yet it was on the cover of the Money Section of Friday's USAToday.

The individual and the collective are related and dependant on each other. But yet no one is willing to sacrifice thier individual time for the collective. Hence the ineffectiveness of unions....

The Public doesn't care about pilots and management certainly doesn't either. In theory, what if you did have 50% of the pilots out there (Probably not likely with pilots flying and sitting reserve...) but just in theory...what would it prove and to who?

What if 30,000 ALPA members where there? that would be a loud message. But only 100. So that means management thinks "hey, these union guys don't speak for the pilots. The pilots are happy with the status quo"

IOW if you don't speak up someone else will speak for you and craft your thoughts for you.

He WAS a pilot. He's a politician now.

And? Do pilots need a politican in Washington?

It's about him. He has his a$$ covered and doesn't have to endure the possibility of further paycuts for a couple more years.

false. the last President took paycuts. Look, the guy works 6 to 7 days a week.

Clearly walking in step with the rank and file...(you see where the disconnect starts?)

He just toured the country! What more do you want him to do!

Blame the disconnect on the members as much as you want,

well, they are the ones who are doing very little.

but it's the members that hold the key to ALPA's power. It just is what it is.

You are right, the probelm is that power is weak because it is not collected, concentrated and effective. I've been in LEC meetings with pilots sitting in the next room playing cards and socializing with FA's! Does that sound like a empowered membership?

Again and again, when I was an elected rep I asked the membership to provide direction.. I heard crickets chirping. What am I supposed to do? call each one up?

Again we can keep discussing but it always comes back to the disengaged, apathetic, cynical and aloof membership.

 

[CopilotDoug]

It is accurate to say that [ALPA] pilots function as independent contractors. They are concerned for thier individual well being.. not the collective.

Unfortunately, you're right. But this is where the leadership comes into play. Now you know what the membership wants...go get it and TAKE IT BACK! Everyone's expecting action, and then the heads turn around and say "It's easier said than done guys, we gotta play by the rules (which are created by the people we're rallying against). And by the way...it's going to be long, boring, and drawn out."

You've just proved my point. You see no value in the Rally, yet it was on the cover of the Money Section of Friday's USAToday.

And this implies what exactly? The Teamsters with the Auto Industry are getting alot of media too. The message is falling on deaf ears. If it was that big of a deal (not too imply it wasn't) why did ALPA not put out ballots and find out how many would attend? Should have done their research with there membership.

The individual and the collective are related and dependant on each other. But yet no one is willing to sacrifice thier individual time for the collective. Hence the ineffectiveness of unions...

Volunteer what? This would be a good start to advertise specifics.

What if 30,000 ALPA members where there? that would be a loud message. But only 100. So that means management thinks "hey, these union guys don't speak for the pilots. The pilots are happy with the status quo"

No...ALPA castrated themselves by "credibility" and "Playing by the rules". ALPA has set a precedent that they are here "to work with management and congress" Translation: ALPA is a House of Cards

The United pilots just got the door slammed in their face over the contract and trying to re-open it. Is Prater going to initiate and call on ALL of the other ALPA carriers to get involved in a Job Action such as a slow down, or is he going to let United get dragged into the alley behind a dumpster and get beat up by Tilton and his cronies?

And? Do pilots need a politican in Washington?

Just keep in mind, The House NEVER loses.

Look, the guy works 6 to 7 days a week.

Good...starve your dog and it will fight harder.

He just toured the country! What more do you want him to do!.

I want him to fix the problem, beside glad-handing and grand-standing. He stepped up to the plate, did he think his paycheck would come easy?

You are right, the probelm is that power is weak because it is not collected, concentrated and effective. I've been in LEC meetings with pilots sitting in the next room playing cards and socializing with FA's! Does that sound like a empowered membership?

Actually, why didn't you go in their and tell them to get their a$$es into the meeting?

Again and again, when I was an elected rep I asked the membership to provide direction.. I heard crickets chirping. What am I supposed to do? call each one up?

You should be taking your knowledge and using it to improve current conditions (Pay, Schedule, Benefits)

Again we can keep discussing but it always comes back to the disengaged, apathetic, cynical and aloof membership.

sounds alot like the rhetoric from CEO's "It's those dammed employees again!!!"

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Unfortunately, you're right. But this is where the leadership comes into play. Now you know what the membership wants...go get it and TAKE IT BACK! Everyone's expecting action, and then the heads turn around and say "It's easier said than done guys, we gotta play by the rules (which are created by the people we're rallying against). And by the way...it's going to be long, boring, and drawn out."

So this is getting back to you wanting the leadership to "make a stand" and go to jail, like Hitler, Ghandi and MLK jr! Maybe Prater could write a book: "An Air Line Pilot in Prison!" that would instill consumer confidence..

And this implies what exactly? The Teamsters with the Auto Industry are getting alot of media too. The message is falling on deaf ears. If it was that big of a deal (not too imply it wasn't) why did ALPA not put out ballots and find out how many would attend? Should have done their research with there membership.Volunteer what? This would be a good start to advertise specifics.

There were Air Line Pilots in uniform in a full color picture in the Money Section of the USAToday. If you don't get it, then you don't get it.

No...ALPA castrated themselves by "credibility" and "Playing by the rules". ALPA has set a precedent that they are here "to work with management and congress" Translation: ALPA is a House of Cards

So instead of empowering the leadership with membership participation, you want the weaken leadership to go radical? Sounds like you don't want to take very much repsonsibility in your career.

You've got a typical consumer service mentaility. I paid my money now I want my results!

The United pilots just got the door slammed in their face over the contract and trying to re-open it. Is Prater going to initiate and call on ALL of the other ALPA carriers to get involved in a Job Action such as a slow down, or is he going to let United get dragged into the alley behind a dumpster and get beat up by Tilton and his cronies?

Please provide a logical "cost benefit analysis" on doing a slow down. If you need references I'll provide one.

Just keep in mind, The House NEVER loses.

That is deep- you make chinese philosophers sound corney...

Good...starve your dog and it will fight harder.

You can't be this stupid. In fact I know you are not.

I want him to fix the problem, beside glad-handing and grand-standing. He stepped up to the plate, did he think his paycheck would come easy?
Actually, why didn't you go in their and tell them to get their a$$es into the meeting?

You are the kind of guy that would not offer a cold glass of water to the HVAC guys fixing your AC in the summer. In fact you'd say, "phcuk you, work harder, I'm hot and I want my AC fixed."

You should be taking your knowledge and using it to improve current conditions (Pay, Schedule, Benefits)

I did my best but I dind't know what the membership wanted. Then of course they complain when the actions of ALPA are not customized to thier liking.

sounds alot like the rhetoric from CEO's "It's those dammed employees again!!!"

Sounds like you need another hot dog while you sit in the stands and watch others play your career....

 

[CopilotDoug]

So this is getting back to you wanting the leadership to "make a stand" and go to jail, like Hitler, Ghandi and MLK jr! Maybe Prater could write a book: "An Air Line Pilot in Prison!" that would instill consumer confidence..

Yes, that is exactly what I said...go to Jail for the pilots...(layered with sarcasm)

There were Air Line Pilots in uniform in a full color picture in the Money Section of the USAToday. If you don't get it, then you don't get it.

Yes...and just the other day I heard two ladies discussing it in the grocery check-out lanes.

So instead of empowering the leadership with membership participation, you want the weaken leadership to go radical? Sounds like you don't want to take very much repsonsibility in your career.

You do what you gotta do to get the point across that your pilot group is not going to take $hit from these management teams. Worst case scenario: are you willing to go on strike and potentially be unemployed to stand up for your profession? Because if you don't have your leaders re-iterating that message to the CEO's, they now hold the Fear Card and will use it to their advantage.

You've got a typical consumer service mentaility. I paid my money now I want my results!

If your plumber doesn't finish the job you pay him to do, do you toss your hands up and say "Something is better than nothing" ?

Please provide a logical "cost benefit analysis" on doing a slow down. If you need references I'll provide one.

Yeah, it hurts the company's bottom line. Now you have their attention.

That is deep- you make chinese philosophers sound corney...

I'm just saying that ALPA puts a whole lot of faith in congressional representation. And we know Big Business has a bigger stake in it than the pilots do.

You are the kind of guy that would not offer a cold glass of water to the HVAC guys fixing your AC in the summer. In fact you'd say, "phcuk you, work harder, I'm hot and I want my AC fixed."

Makes me feel like a REAL man

I did my best but I dind't know what the membership wanted.

Seriously??? What made you want to run for the position then?

Sounds like you need another hot dog while you sit in the stands and watch others play your career...

Like you said man, some people care about it, some people don't. It's the job of ALPA leaders to convince the membership they need to care about it and solidify as ONE group.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

. It's the job of ALPA leaders to convince the membership they need to care about it and solidify as ONE group.

Your attitude and a major point of the problem is right here....

Is it your instructors responsibility to pass your check ride?



It is your responsbilty to manage your career....

You argue that the membership need not communicate and participate in the process yet the leadership should "do thy memberships will".

A real winner you are.....

It is attitudes likes yours that have eroded this profession. Its not that you are unique... this cancer has always been here and we'll continue to shoot ourselves in the foot....

 

[Freight Dog]

Doug, you need to understand that Rez is like a hippie. He doesn't believe in radical actions such as strikes, WOE campaigns. That is so mean and old school. He believes that pragmatic approach to the governmental and management abuses is the way to go while singing "All you need is love."

He has a difficult time grasping some simple applied leadership concepts, realizing that in order for the membership to develop any interest, leaders have to inspire, motivate, and lead. Dog and pony shows don't cut it. Actions do. But so far, our union is one big dog and pony show, and as such it doesn't inspire much when they start singing his pragmatic tune.

Rez... I watched "The Last Castle" yesterday during my commute home. I strongly recommend you watching that movie. Wanna know how you can motivate the membership? Right there in that movie... it's called leadership - a concept that ALPA can't grasp.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Doug, you need to understand that Rez is like a hippie. He doesn't believe in radical actions such as strikes, WOE campaigns. That is so mean and old school. He believes that pragmatic approach to the governmental and management abuses is the way to go while singing "All you need is love."

Rez, you need to realize Freight Dog is like a 3-year old. He thinks that all you have to do to get the other 3-year olds to give you their toys is to push them over or steal them. Laws and rules are things that apply to others. Anger means you can operate outside the law cuz you're one of the "good guys"...although you, naturally, expect everyone ELSE to comply.

He has a difficult time grasping some simple applied leadership concepts, realizing that in order for the membership to develop any interest, leaders have to inspire, motivate, and lead. Dog and pony shows don't cut it. Actions do. But so far, our union is one big dog and pony show, and as such it doesn't inspire much when they start singing his pragmatic tune.

He has a difficult time recognizing leadership. Sometimes it comes at him as directives that he just can't embrace, such as supporting political candidates that support us. Sometimes the leadership asks him to help by being an activist within the construct of the law...such as writing/calling legislators, or sending a check to a PAC focused on supporting our profession. His recognition failure sometimes comes from his belief that 100% of the objectives must fit within his vision...or there is no benefit to him following the leaders.

Rez... I watched "The Last Castle" yesterday during my commute home. I strongly recommend you watching that movie. Wanna know how you can motivate the membership? Right there in that movie... it's called leadership - a concept that ALPA can't grasp.

Wow! I watched "We Were Soldiers Once". An overly aggressive platoon leader chased an enemy unit too far, which led to the decimation of his platoon. The battalion commander wanted him to keep his platoon unified with the rest of the battlion. The bottom line is that the leader's mission changed from taking the fight to the enemy...to survival.

Sometimes leadership is trying to preserve as much as you can.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Doug and FD-

You keep banging your head on the wall insisting that reality is not right via your perspective. You can continue to demand that the rest of the union, industry, economy and world see things the way you want them too....

or you can figure out how the system works, become effective, learn to game it and maniplute it and get results...



How long are you going to wake up each day insisting that it is fubar all while spinning your wheels?

 

[Freight Dog]

Don't talk to me like that Occam, or I'm calling mommy!

In all seriousness, do you honestly believe that you will recover your losses by pragmatic means? Tell me... why should Steenland accept less money for his trust fund and reward you for your "sacrifice?" Think he'll do it just to be a nice guy? How about Tilton? Think UAL pilots will recover their losses by being pragmatic? Tilton smirked as UAL pilots threw their hats on the ground as he was walking by at their last BOD meeting.

Anger? You mean you're not angry over your pension being frozen, paycuts you've taken, longer hours you're working, while your big boss is getting millions in bonuses and stock? If you're not angry, perhaps you should donate some more of your paycheck, work a bit longer (those pesky FAR's getting in the way), and forget your retirement - you'll get 5 more years to slave away for Mr. Steeland's trust fund anyway.

One thing to add to your Freight Dog analysis - while he regularly writes and calls his congressional leadership with regards to various issues, most not directly related to our profession, he has lost confidence in his union leadership on the national level as they've proven once again that they are out of touch with the majority of the membership that they are elected to represent. As such, he refuses to send any money to ALPA-PAC. Instead, Freight Dog will rather add that money to his donations to IMSFF and TAPS.

Sometimes leadership is trying to preserve as much as you can.

How is that? We only preserve what the management let us preserve because our leadership has been castrated.

So what's the fix?

For ALPA - establishing an Orange Ribbon Panel to explore the concept of the outside of box thinking.

For Freight Dog - getting the hell out of this industry.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Doug, you need to understand that Rez is like a hippie. He doesn't believe in radical actions such as strikes, WOE campaigns. That is so mean and old school. He believes that pragmatic approach to the governmental and management abuses is the way to go while singing "All you need is love."

He has a difficult time grasping some simple applied leadership concepts, realizing that in order for the membership to develop any interest, leaders have to inspire, motivate, and lead. Dog and pony shows don't cut it. Actions do. But so far, our union is one big dog and pony show, and as such it doesn't inspire much when they start singing his pragmatic tune.

Rez... I watched "The Last Castle" yesterday during my commute home. I strongly recommend you watching that movie. Wanna know how you can motivate the membership? Right there in that movie... it's called leadership - a concept that ALPA can't grasp.

Well said, Frieght Dog.

 

[CopilotDoug]

For Freight Dog - getting the hell out of this industry.

According the Rez and Occam...if all the pilots get different jobs and leave, this may just fix the problem. It'll get the dammed membership out of the way for the ALPA leaders!

...or you can figure out how the system works, become effective, learn to game it and maniplute it and get results...

So you're suggesting we take one big dysfunctional organization and get it all tangled up with the red tape of an even MORE dysfunctional system? Why don't the pilots just make their donations directly out to "Sen. Kennedy's Yacht Fund"?

Come on Cheech, try to think outside the box for a minute here. It'll feel good!

 

[Occam's Razor]

Don't talk to me like that Occam, or I'm calling mommy!

Good on ya! I appreciate your response. You understood my post wasn't a personal attack on you.

In all seriousness, do you honestly believe that you will recover your losses by pragmatic means? Tell me... why should Steenland accept less money for his trust fund and reward you for your "sacrifice?" Think he'll do it just to be a nice guy? How about Tilton? Think UAL pilots will recover their losses by being pragmatic? Tilton smirked as UAL pilots threw their hats on the ground as he was walking by at their last BOD meeting.

I don't mind Steenland getting restricted grants that are perfomance- and longevity-based. I understand that some F/A's resent the amount of money I'm paid for "sitting on my butt" while they're working in the back...so I try not to be a hypocrite about who-gets-paid-more. The element of the situation that irritates me is that his pay appears to be a reward for hammering us (along with the lenders, leasers, manufacturers, State of Minnesota, and other vendors and creditors). I think the folks at USBank, IFLC, and others that have been hammered resent his pay package too.

So yes, I will try to recover my losses by "pragmatic" means (assuming that means "within the law"). To do otherwise is not in my DNA.

Anger? You mean you're not angry over your pension being frozen, paycuts you've taken, longer hours you're working, while your big boss is getting millions in bonuses and stock? If you're not angry, perhaps you should donate some more of your paycheck, work a bit longer (those pesky FAR's getting in the way), and forget your retirement - you'll get 5 more years to slave away for Mr. Steeland's trust fund anyway.

"Angry"? Sure...I guess. But I don't allow it to guide my actions. Screaming out my anger at Pratt & Whitney in the middle of an engine failure at V1 is not the best way to focus on the task at hand. I love to play poker with my friends that allow their emotions to rule their actions. I always show them my cards when I bluff...knowing that their anger will drive them on future hands. Deal me a great hand after that and I'll jack the pot deeply into their kid's college fund!

If I'm angry for more than 10-minutes a day, I'm wasting my time.

One thing to add to your Freight Dog analysis - while he regularly writes and calls his congressional leadership with regards to various issues, most not directly related to our profession, he has lost confidence in his union leadership on the national level as they've proven once again that they are out of touch with the majority of the membership that they are elected to represent. As such, he refuses to send any money to ALPA-PAC. Instead, Freight Dog will rather add that money to his donations to IMSFF and TAPS.

I understand your frustration with ALPA. I get frustrated too. I also get frustrated with the actions of my government, and sometimes even the actions of my kids. But I haven't given up on any of them. I still do everything in my power to keep each of them on-track.

It's an intellectual choice.

We only preserve what the management let us preserve because our leadership has been castrated.

Disagree. I'll concede that management gets to play the white pieces, and sometimes gets to move three times to our one...but I'm not about to abandon a profession I love and am proud of just because a bunch of amoral nitwits thinks it's chump work.

I heard very little squawking about "leadership" when we were making huge strides in the late-90's and '00/'01. I recognize that not all victories are measured in turf gained. If I thought we had no chance of regaining what we had, I'd quit and work my other job full-time.

So what's the fix?

For ALPA - establishing an Orange Ribbon Panel to explore the concept of the outside of box thinking.

Well put!

I'm actually with you on that one. I'm disappointed in the "panel" process. I prefer more direct accountability. But just because I'd do things differently doesn't mean I won't help do them this way. That's because I still believe in trade unionism, and because I've been wrong before.

 

[Freight Dog]

Outstanding post!

Just a quick clarification:

"Pragmatic" means dialogue, begging, pleading, etc. anything but a strike or WOE...

If you ask Rez... he's opposed to any WOE action to get the attention of their management. They can bring that big inflatable rat in front of their airline HQ, and the executives will laugh at the dog and pony show because they know there is no meat behind that rat - just a show.

Strike? Heavens forbid we shut the company down! They're telling us we'll all be out of a job if that happens, yet nobody stops and thinks how much do the executives/shareholders stand to lose. That's a big bargaining chip.

Funny you should mention playing poker. I said it before, I'd love to play poker with ALPA National... they seem to fold every time someone ups the ante on them.

You also mention the 90's and 00 and 01. The difference between then and now are the corporate ethics and morals. For example, nowadays, retirees are only seen as a financial drain away from executive pay packages, and not as people who had built their companies. The executives running airlines today have evolved from being just greedy bastards, to morally and ethically-corrupt, ruthless greedy bastards, and we need to approach them as such. We need to evolve as well, and appeasing them is not how it's done.