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DOJ stipulates Love Field gates auctioned only to LCC's

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Except that SWA operates at LAX, PHX, PHL, BOS, DCA (upcoming),ATL, MIA, MSP, DTW and CLT so operating at a fortress hub doesn't seem to be intolerable.

So does SWA want to be protected from competition at Love, or given the freedom to not be restricted to Love?

That's funny.

The entire 35+ year existence of the Wright Amendment was to protect other airlines (most notably American Airlines) from competition from Southwest. Southwest has never shied away from direct competition--at Love Field or anywhere else. Until this "compromise agreement," other airlines have always been free to compete with us at Love. Always. Many have tried, some multiple times. They always had free rein to do the same things that Southwest did at Love Field (of course, we were all hobbled by American Airlines political stooge, Rep Jim Wright). They came, tried to compete with us on exactly equal terms, and for the most part, left of their own volition. Until the limiting compromise, there were plenty of open, unused gates; the terminal had 32 gates, with Southwest using 16, American owning two and subleasing them, and I believe Continental with another two. That left 12 more open and available gates, that any other airline was free to use, but none wanted to.

The compromise agreement stipulated a maximum of 20 gates (at American and DFW's insistence, not Southwest's), of which 16 were the ones that we were using. Southwest wanted to keep all the available gates, and then you guys could come and go as you please, just as you did before. So if you want to bitch at somebody for keeping you from competing at Love, then maybe you should bitch at American Airlines or DFW airport, or the city of Ft Worth. They're the one's who insisted on these limitations in the agreement, over Southwest's objections. Do you really think that Southwest is afraid of competition like Flopgut is?

Bubba
 
Except that SWA operates at LAX, PHX, PHL, BOS, DCA (upcoming),ATL, MIA, MSP, DTW and CLT so operating at a fortress hub doesn't seem to be intolerable.

So does SWA want to be protected from competition at Love, or given the freedom to not be restricted to Love?

As far as your other point goes, those other airports that are hubs aren't as anywhere near as bad as DFW (2700 daily AA and AE departures alone). LAX isn't really a hub; a zillion airlines fly there from all over, and traffic moves quickly and consistently. BOS, DCA, MSP and CLT are much smaller as far as hubs with enormous banks of departures, and don't seem to offer the same issues. We don't fly to MIA, and DTW is much better than it used to be. O&E traffic at both DTW and CLT is relatively small, so we don't have many flights there; and we try to schedule our few flights there between the banks. That wouldn't be possible at DFW, due to the sheer size of American's operation, and our O&E traffic in Dallas is substantially higher than the other cities that airlines picked as their hubs. Why do you think other airlines picked cities like Detroit, Charlotte, Cleveland, etc. as places to put their big hubs?

I'll give you ATL. That airport can be a pain in the ass, and we take delays sometimes waiting. I suspect the only reason we fly there (aside from AirTran's operation) is that there was too much money to be made there, and there's not another suitable airport to use. Not the case in Dallas or Chicago, etc. But the big point is, why do you care what airport we fly in and out of? You need enormous airports (regardless of the size of the city) to support your fortress hub concept; we don't. Why don't you fly to the airports that you want, and stop bitching about Southwest's choice of airports? You work your business model, and we'll work ours. Are you really going to resort to making the "Flopgut argument"?

Bubba
 
You realize you're dealing with a child there, right?
Ha! Never happen!

Again, $5 is a lot to the child Lee. It's probably 2 or 3 tricks at an ATL airport restroom!

You got that right!:laugh:

Respect is something earned! With 19000+ posts, and nothing to offer but "mom insults," it'll never happen! Remember, you're dealing with some booger picking d0uche bag sitting in his parents basement, who gets all his info from blowing some male f/a based in ATL!

And this guy claims to be an INTL pilot at DL, and can't remember basic procedures at two of the most widely used European airports DL goes to. Scoot is a total loser.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
Years ago, when DFW first opened, Braniff went back over to DAL to match SWA's operation. SWA could not compete and had them removed from the airport. That is what started the Wright Amendment. The WA was always about keeping SWA protected. It's why it was continuously adjusted thru the years (to match what SWA was ready to do) For you SWA guys that doubt that happened, take a good look at what's going on today. The DOJ [the government] is *prohibiting* non LCC airlines from bidding on DAL gates. Think about that for a moment. Who's really being kept out of the bidding here? UAL AMR & DAL. Or, basically, the only airlines that could really mount serious competition there.

This really ought to be a wake up call. This is not the free market and this is not capitalism.
 
Bubba
You're pinpointing the nature of the modern day airline pilot
Staunch conservative free market socialists
 
Years ago, when DFW first opened, Braniff went back over to DAL to match SWA's operation. SWA could not compete and had them removed from the airport.
This really ought to be a wake up call. This is not the free market and this is not capitalism.

Complete with whatever revisionist history they need to justify their views^^^

Of this flop I agree- airlines are oligopolistic in nature and therefore always intersect with politics.

It's naive of you to think legacies haven't helped united along and so now you're what? Complaining that southwest is winning political battles for once?

C'mon man
 
Scoot
He may or may not be a delta pilot- but GL's been posting too long to be anything more than an adult who's as immature as his language suggests-
Unless it's a club of 10 year olds who pass the baton to the next generation year over year...
 
Lets resurrect Hooters Air and have them bid for the DAL gates and then the General can go fly for them and he will be able to land at DAL (this must be his ultimate dream)
 
Complete with whatever revisionist history they need to justify their views^^^



Of this flop I agree- airlines are oligopolistic in nature and therefore always intersect with politics.



It's naive of you to think legacies haven't helped united along and so now you're what? Complaining that southwest is winning political battles for once?



C'mon man


What does any of that mean?! You shutting down again like you do when you've got no answers? Earlier you wanted to discuss capitalism. Well, let's discuss how it relates to the DOJ excluding legacy bids on dal gates. This is post WA, there should be no DOJ input on this airport. Does this fit in your version of capitalism?
 
What does any of that mean?! You shutting down again like you do when you've got no answers? Earlier you wanted to discuss capitalism. Well, let's discuss how it relates to the DOJ excluding legacy bids on dal gates. This is post WA, there should be no DOJ input on this airport. Does this fit in your version of capitalism?

Bubba already explained that one so either keep up or don't
But that doesn't make it worth my time to lay it out for you... Again
 
Years ago, when DFW first opened, Braniff went back over to DAL to match SWA's operation. SWA could not compete and had them removed from the airport. That is what started the Wright Amendment. The WA was always about keeping SWA protected. It's why it was continuously adjusted thru the years (to match what SWA was ready to do) For you SWA guys that doubt that happened, take a good look at what's going on today. The DOJ [the government] is *prohibiting* non LCC airlines from bidding on DAL gates. Think about that for a moment. Who's really being kept out of the bidding here? UAL AMR & DAL. Or, basically, the only airlines that could really mount serious competition there.

This really ought to be a wake up call. This is not the free market and this is not capitalism.



I have to ask



Do you actually believe what you post ?
 
Years ago, when DFW first opened, Braniff went back over to DAL to match SWA's operation. SWA could not compete and had them removed from the airport. That is what started the Wright Amendment. The WA was always about keeping SWA protected. It's why it was continuously adjusted thru the years (to match what SWA was ready to do) For you SWA guys that doubt that happened, take a good look at what's going on today. The DOJ [the government] is *prohibiting* non LCC airlines from bidding on DAL gates. Think about that for a moment. Who's really being kept out of the bidding here? UAL AMR & DAL. Or, basically, the only airlines that could really mount serious competition there.

This really ought to be a wake up call. This is not the free market and this is not capitalism.

Dude, you must have serious brain issues if you really believe any of this.

Braniff was one of the airlines found guilty in criminal court (along with Continental and Texas International) for their illegal efforts to kill Southwest. They "competed" with us however they wanted, and even in Dallas. You should really look up the "$13 fare war":

http://www.texasmonthly.com/story/great-airline-war/page/0/8

Braniff undercut our fares (charging only $13 from DAL-HOU) in order to "outlast" Southwest and kill them, despite losing money every time one of their planes took off on a competitive flight. Southwest "won" that war by giving away liquor with every full fare ticket ($26), and kept all the business travelers on expense accounts. Braniff eventually discontinued that competition, since they were losing so much money. Nobody at Southwest "had them removed" from Love Field. Where the hell do you get this crap? Tell me Flop, how exactly do you claim we had the power to do that, seeing as how at the time, every other player (the other airlines, both cities, and both airports) pretty much hated us?

Anyway, this all happened in 1973, and had not the first friggin' thing to do with the Wright Amendment. Another ridiculous assertion on your part. Southwest was an intrastate Texas carrier until the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978, and we announced service to other states for 1979. Again the other airlines file frivolous lawsuits to stop us, and again, they were shut out in court for lack of merit. So Rep Jim Wright from Ft Worth (the Speaker of the House at the time) snuck in the Wright Amendment, which changed the law specifically to thwart Southwest, and prevent American (and the other DFW carriers) from having to compete with Southwest on more interstate routes from Dallas. It was amended several times over the years by congressmen wanting Southwest to be able to serve their cites from Dallas.

You really ought to read some actual history before you spout off stupid crap. You're just making yourself look bad.

Bubba
 
Years ago, when DFW first opened, Braniff went back over to DAL to match SWA's operation. SWA could not compete and had them removed from the airport. That is what started the Wright Amendment. The WA was always about keeping SWA protected. It's why it was continuously adjusted thru the years (to match what SWA was ready to do) For you SWA guys that doubt that happened, take a good look at what's going on today. The DOJ [the government] is *prohibiting* non LCC airlines from bidding on DAL gates. Think about that for a moment. Who's really being kept out of the bidding here? UAL AMR & DAL. Or, basically, the only airlines that could really mount serious competition there.

This really ought to be a wake up call. This is not the free market and this is not capitalism.

By the way, since you're one of those delusional souls who keeps insisting against logic, that the Wright Amendment was "about keeping SWA protected," perhaps you could explain that particular tidbit to the rest of us. How exactly was a law preventing us from doing what we wanted to do, "protecting" us? How exactly was a law, specifically preventing us from doing what we had gone to court to win the right to do, "protecting" us? Why would Rep Wright, representing the DFW district, and recipient of millions of dollars in contributions from American, Braniff, etc. even want to "protect" an airline that competed with his constituents? Do you not even realize how dumb making this claim sounds?

I've heard people make this claim several times over the years (well, mostly from you, Flop), but nobody has been able to actually show that it's anything other that a bunch of self-serving crapola. Perhaps you'd like to take a shot at it.

Bubba
 
Bubba: You like to talk/write a lot. Diarrhea of the mouth. Just let this marinate on your brain: The DOJ is crafting a deal to make sure you don't have to compete with a legacy. Good for you! It's all good man. Just don't act like you're anything but a cake eater, all right? Cause that's what you are.
 
Man alive, you really like to bet. Nah, I said we'll see, that is not certainty. And I say I start debate, not troll. Also, you seem to really take this seriously. I actually enjoy this board, and the debate. You sound like you are one beat away from a total heart attack.

You Sir are a coward!

You constantly assert you are a superior intellect with superior debating skills, but it is all just a flimsy facade. You want everyone to believe you have all the answers but you slink away with your tail between your legs when someone challenges your industry knowledge! You said "We'll see, that it's not a certainty." But I have told you it is a certainty and I'm willing to bet I know more than you about this industry. You wont take the wager to prove you are what you say you are. You are nothing but a fake and a charlatan.
 
You Sir are a coward!

You constantly assert you are a superior intellect with superior debating skills, but it is all just a flimsy facade. You want everyone to believe you have all the answers but you slink away with your tail between your legs when someone challenges your industry knowledge! You said "We'll see, that it's not a certainty." But I have told you it is a certainty and I'm willing to bet I know more than you about this industry. You wont take the wager to prove you are what you say you are. You are nothing but a fake and a charlatan.

You are an idiot. This is an anonymous rumor board. Get over yourself! You wanna bet what??? Why? I bet you guys and your union don't press for change to the buy your type deal with your company for newhires who aren't typed. I bet there are tons of AT guys who will always be pizzed that you and your union hosed them with the ridiculous SLI that management should have avoided all contact with. I bet you and many of the other Cornies think of me when you land in West Texas (yesss!). And I bet your airline will stagnate thanks to fewer retirements, making a lot of the bottom 1/3 look at other possible jobs.

Any other bets? I bet I'll eat more sundaes across the North Atlantic than you will, I bet I will have more variety in planes and interesting routes than you will, and I bet I will enjoy my flying more than you will.

Howie, you are miserable, bored, and know turbulence is ahead. So what do you do? Call someone you can't debate on an "anonymous" board a coward. Wow, you are losing it. And I'm a fake? On an anonymous board? No.....you're a fake? Riiiight? Emirite? You're "NUTS!" :)



Bye Bye---General Lee
 
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You wanna bet what??? Why?
You know what I want to bet and you know why.

The what is that Delta will not obtain the gates up for auction at Love.

The why is because I am correct and you don't want to admit you are wrong when you say it is likely Delta will obtain them.

The rest is just your endless blather and obfuscation.
 
You know what I want to bet and you know why.

The what is that Delta will not obtain the gates up for auction at Love.

The why is because I am correct and you don't want to admit you are wrong when you say it is likely Delta will obtain them.

The rest is just your endless blather and obfuscation.

I bet DL will be trying it's hardest to keep the gates they already use there and try to get a couple more. The other LCCs out there may not want to reestablish a presence there vs DFW. The Dallas Love airport probably likes DL's plans, lots of new flights and revenue. The people of Dallas may want extra competition. Lots of things can make or break the request. But, somehow you are CERTAIN DL's lobbyists will fail. Well, okay then.....?


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
By the way, since you're one of those delusional souls who keeps insisting against logic, that the Wright Amendment was "about keeping SWA protected," perhaps you could explain that particular tidbit to the rest of us. How exactly was a law preventing us from doing what we wanted to do, "protecting" us? How exactly was a law, specifically preventing us from doing what we had gone to court to win the right to do, "protecting" us? Why would Rep Wright, representing the DFW district, and recipient of millions of dollars in contributions from American, Braniff, etc. even want to "protect" an airline that competed with his constituents? Do you not even realize how dumb making this claim sounds?

I've heard people make this claim several times over the years (well, mostly from you, Flop), but nobody has been able to actually show that it's anything other that a bunch of self-serving crapola. Perhaps you'd like to take a shot at it.

Bubba


Do you honestly think that the DOJs' decision here would actually pass muster if the shoe was on the other foot for any airline at any base/hub/city that they dominated?
 
Funny, DL is already using some of those gates. Nope. We'll see how many gates DL gets.

I don't think they get to make the call, just give an opinion.

DL is currently using some of those gates. I doubt they would lose those I'd say there is a good chance to gain gates at DAL. We'll just have to see...

Wow Howie, you sure are certain, yet it hasn't been decided.

I bet DL will be trying it's hardest to keep the gates they already use there and try to get a couple more. Lots of things can make or break the request. But, somehow you are CERTAIN DL's lobbyists will fail.
"Funny, DL is already using some of those gates. Nope. We'll see how many gates DL gets."
My claim is they will get none. To counter that accept the wager.

"I don't think they get to make the call, just give an opinion."
And you are wrong, the DOJ will make the call as to who is allowed to bid. To counter that accept the wager.

"DL is currently using some of those gates. I doubt they would lose those I'd say there is a good chance to gain gates at DAL. We'll just have to see..."
I say your absolutely wrong. To counter that, accept the wager.

"Wow Howie, you sure are certain, yet it hasn't been decided."
Yep, so certain I am betting I am right and you are wrong. To counter that, accept the wager.

"I bet DL will be trying it's hardest to keep the gates they already use there and try to get a couple more. Lots of things can make or break the request. But, somehow you are CERTAIN DL's lobbyists will fail."
Yep, absolutely certain they will fail. To counter that, accept the wager.

It's a simple proposition, you can "man up" and take it or skulk away knowing you are wrong.
 
You Sir are a coward!

You constantly assert you are a superior intellect with superior debating skills, but it is all just a flimsy facade. You want everyone to believe you have all the answers but you slink away with your tail between your legs when someone challenges your industry knowledge! You said "We'll see, that it's not a certainty." But I have told you it is a certainty and I'm willing to bet I know more than you about this industry. You wont take the wager to prove you are what you say you are. You are nothing but a fake and a charlatan.
When are you guys going to realize this *********************************** is nothing more than a phony! He's no pilot let alone a pilot for DL or ANY legacy. He gets his information from blowing some male f/a from ATL. Stop feeding this gutter troll.
 
When are you guys going to realize this *********************************** is nothing more than a phony! He's no pilot let alone a pilot for DL or ANY legacy. He gets his information from blowing some male f/a from ATL. Stop feeding this gutter troll.

You DO NOT give me my info.... And I don't do that. Quit dreaming again.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
Do you honestly think that the DOJs' decision here would actually pass muster if the shoe was on the other foot for any airline at any base/hub/city that they dominated?

The DOJ hasn't made any decision about the gates at DAL (or any other airport where the new AA agreed to give up gates). All they've said is that they want them to go to LCCs to spur competition (i.e. other than UAL, DL. or AA). If it's like the gates at DCA and LGA, I suspect they'll have an auction, where even the DOJ doesn't know who'll get them, because they don't know how much airlines are willing to pay. In the slot auction, we got some; other airlines got the rest. A few years ago, they had an LGA slot auction, and we got none, as JBLU outbid us. Southwest decided they weren't worth bidding anymore than we did.

To be honest, I suspect that Southwest will try harder/bid more for the DAL gates, because we need them to grow service in Dallas, unlike any other airline. Don't know if you knew this or not, but of all the airlines who fly into Dallas, only Southwest is legally constrained on gates. If we take a gate at the other airport (DFW), then we have to give up one at DAL. If any of the airlines based at DFW take a gate at DAL, then they're not required to give anything up.

Short of abandoning DAL completely, and moving our entire operation to DFW, the most gates we're ever allowed to use anywhere in Dallas is the 20 legally allowed to exist at DAL (we have 16 right now). Contrast that to the literally hundreds of gates American has at DFW, and the ability of Delta (or any other airline, for that matter) to fly from DAL and still grow to as many gates at DFW as they want simultaneously.

It's a unique situation, and I doubt that even the DOJ knows what will happen yet.

Bubba
 
Bubba: You like to talk/write a lot. Diarrhea of the mouth. Just let this marinate on your brain: The DOJ is crafting a deal to make sure you don't have to compete with a legacy. Good for you! It's all good man. Just don't act like you're anything but a cake eater, all right? Cause that's what you are.

I talk a lot, because it often takes a lot of words to refute all of the silly stuff you say on this forum. Absolutely none of the crap you posted about Dallas Love field and the Wright Amendment was true. Not one word.

We'll see what the DOJ does about the DAL gates. And I realize you'll never admit it, but it's not about competition--we've always competed against all the legacies, including yours. But you'll excuse us if we don't want to fly into a few of the most crowded, fortress hub airports, when there's another airport available nearby to use instead.

Bubba
 
The DOJ hasn't made any decision about the gates at DAL (or any other airport where the new AA agreed to give up gates). All they've said is that they want them to go to LCCs to spur competition (i.e. other than UAL, DL. or If it's like the gates at DCA and LGA, I suspect they'll have an auction, where even the DOJ doesn't know who'll get them, because they don't know how much airlines are willing to pay. In the slot auction, we got some; other airlines got the rest. A few years ago, they had an LGA slot auction, and we got none, as JBLU outbid us. Southwest decided they weren't worth bidding anymore than we did.

To be honest, I suspect that Southwest will try harder/bid more for the DAL gates, because we need them to grow service in Dallas, unlike any other airline. Don't know if you knew this or not, but of all the airlines who fly into Dallas, only Southwest is legally constrained on gates. If we take a gate at the other airport (DFW), then we have to give up one at DAL. If any of the airlines based at DFW take a gate at DAL, then they're not required to give anything up.

Short of abandoning DAL completely, and moving our entire operation to DFW, the most gates we're ever allowed to use anywhere in Dallas is the 20 legally allowed to exist at DAL (we have 16 right now). Contrast that to the literally hundreds of gates American has at DFW, and the ability of Delta (or any other airline, for that matter) to fly from DAL and still grow to as many gates at DFW as they want simultaneously.

It's a unique situation, and I doubt that even the DOJ knows what will happen yet.

Bubba


Three paragraphs, no answer. Just luv speak. And one huge lie:

"DOJ hasn't made any decision about the gates at DAL (or any other airport where the new AA agreed to give up gates). All they've said is that they want them to go to LCCs to spur competition (i.e. other than UAL, DL."

"Spur competition!?" Why can't DL spur the competition Bubba? They're already there and selling tickets. It's the sort of LIE that you live and thrive on. The DOJ *has made a decision*: United and Delta are being excluded. Delta is going to be removed from the airport.
 
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Three paragraphs, no answer. Just luv speak. And one huge lie:

"DOJ hasn't made any decision about the gates at DAL (or any other airport where the new AA agreed to give up gates). All they've said is that they want them to go to LCCs to spur competition (i.e. other than UAL, DL."

"Spur competition!?" Why can't DL spur the competition Bubba? They're already there and selling tickets. It's the sort of LIE that you live and thrive on. The DOJ *has made a decision*: United and Delta are being excluded. Delta is going to be removed from the airport.

Uh... actually it was four paragraphs, not three.

And there was no lie whatsoever. The DOJ hasn't decided yet who'll get the gates, as I said. They have, however, said that the process won't be open to DL, UAL, and AA, which I also said. What have I said that's not true? Hey, I'm not the one who spun up some fairly tale like you did about the Wright Amendment.

Bubba
 
Bubba: If you're a legacy airline (especially Delta) the decision has indeed been made.

So, let's see... Of the LCCs that might get these gates, who's going to represent the biggest challenge to the international tickets you will sell connecting through Houston? Certainly not anything like having to deal with United or Delta. Interesting.

Imagine the fricking outcry there would be if this sort of BS was visited on SWA...
 
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