DL CRJs

[ACL65PILOT]

Tell you what - Hell's gonna break loose if CPZ pilots get "stapled" onto any mainline list. There's no reason that a fuselage diameter difference between the CRJ9 and the E170 entitle anyone to anything. CPZ is still a regional, and anyone's chances of moving on to mainline should be strictly a result of seniority (via flow) or outside interview. I've heard a few nasty rumors of a few, very junior CPZ pilots with an extremely overinflated sense of entitlement to DAL mainline seats. I hope the rumors are not true.

MM

Why?
It has long been stated by our guys in the union that the company would come begging to bring them on. Why? It is easier to have them on our list than to furlough in to their list. It is all about economics. The same can not be said for anywhere else.

 

[IamGumbyDammit]

I thought I read somewhere that DALPA got a $600,000,000 bargaining credit for scope relief in the bankruptcy negotiation. If this is true, do you think the top half of the DAL seniority list would want to pay this back in order to take it back? Would the flying be done at a competative rate?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

It was to never reduce the number of 76 seat jets. As with everything it can and will be renegotiated.

 

[FBN0223]

Tell you what - Hell's gonna break loose if CPZ pilots get "stapled" onto any mainline list. There's no reason that a fuselage diameter difference between the CRJ9 and the E170 entitle anyone to anything. CPZ is still a regional, and anyone's chances of moving on to mainline should be strictly a result of seniority (via flow) or outside interview. I've heard a few nasty rumors of a few, very junior CPZ pilots with an extremely overinflated sense of entitlement to DAL mainline seats. I hope the rumors are not true.

MM

In a sense CPZ pilots do have an entitlement to DAL mainline seats via a contractual agreement. During a hiring cycle, CPZ pilots will have a one time option to flow on to Delta mainline. It's a rather large percentage (around 20%), who will be given this option each year of the hiring cycle. In the event of furloughs, DL pilots can flow down to CPZ positions.

If I am not mistaken, no other flow-down would be applicable for DL pilots at other carriers like Skywest, Mesaba or Comair.

Anyone else read the details regarding flow-downs. Just Compass right?

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

OOOhhh, scary. Do tell what might happen??

Tell you what - Hell's gonna break loose if CPZ pilots get "stapled" onto any mainline list. There's no reason that a fuselage diameter difference between the CRJ9 and the E170 entitle anyone to anything. CPZ is still a regional, and anyone's chances of moving on to mainline should be strictly a result of seniority (via flow) or outside interview. I've heard a few nasty rumors of a few, very junior CPZ pilots with an extremely overinflated sense of entitlement to DAL mainline seats. I hope the rumors are not true.

MM

 

[Browntothebone]

It would have nothing to do with airplane size. It has to do with the fact that we share the same MEC. No other regional has that. Not even OH. That said. I am all for putting every DCI carrier on the mainline list. I do not see that as probable.
CPZ has a true shot. We share the same MEC and we have a established flow where we can take all of their seats to date. It truly has the best chance.

Now most regionals would not go along with being stapled to mainline. Too many 20 year guys that would want their seniority and go to the left seat of at 767. I heard it in 99 when DAL bought ASA. That would need to be worked out. Argue career expectations et al. DOH would never work to bring you on. What you would do at your level is a different sitiuation since in effect all RJ's pay about the same.

Why don't they just staple the regional to the bottom of a mainline list and put up a permanent fence? That would keep the senior regional guys happy about having a mainline flowback take their seat during a downturn. And with a permanent fence, mainline could hire directly into mainline the military pilots and the civilian pilot factory types could go to the regional side of the fence. That way everyone wins. There would be no whipsawing because ALL flying would be done by the same pilot group.

 

[Fly4hire]

Tell you what - Hell's gonna break loose if CPZ pilots get "stapled" onto any mainline list. There's no reason that a fuselage diameter difference between the CRJ9 and the E170 entitle anyone to anything. CPZ is still a regional, and anyone's chances of moving on to mainline should be strictly a result of seniority (via flow) or outside interview. I've heard a few nasty rumors of a few, very junior CPZ pilots with an extremely overinflated sense of entitlement to DAL mainline seats. I hope the rumors are not true.

MM

This is all conjecture and discussion, however the E175 is the smallest of a family of acft that go up to 120 seats, whereas the CRJ900 is the largest of a family that is 100 (Scope limited to 76) seats. The fact is if anyone gets absorbed onto the list, and any acft becomes a mainline it is likely to be the CPZ and the E175 family of aircraft. I understand the flow through issue as it would impact XJ, however if CPZ is stapled, it would be fairly easy to calculate where a XJ pilot would have been slotted in with flow through and adjustments to seniority made.

 

[NuGuy]

I would assume that the CPZ MEC is not part of DAL. I have not heard of them breaking it off.

Heyas ACL,

There never WAS a CPZ MEC. Compass pilots were represented by the NWA MEC. The LECs in DTW, MEM and MSP had local responsibility for representing those pilots, and are their "voting reps".

This representation structure was maintained ON PURPOSE.

When the combined MEC occured this weekend, the DAL MEC now represents Compass pilots.

Nu

 

[Superpilot92]

Tell you what - Hell's gonna break loose if CPZ pilots get "stapled" onto any mainline list. There's no reason that a fuselage diameter difference between the CRJ9 and the E170 entitle anyone to anything. CPZ is still a regional, and anyone's chances of moving on to mainline should be strictly a result of seniority (via flow) or outside interview. I've heard a few nasty rumors of a few, very junior CPZ pilots with an extremely overinflated sense of entitlement to DAL mainline seats. I hope the rumors are not true.

MM

Guess what happens when they flow up to mainline? They go on to the bottom of the list. Stapling now gets them on the bottom quicker instead of having to wait 30 months and miss out on potential seniority numbers while waiting for the opportunity to flow up.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Heyas ACL,

There never WAS a CPZ MEC. Compass pilots were represented by the NWA MEC. The LECs in DTW, MEM and MSP had local responsibility for representing those pilots, and are their "voting reps".

This representation structure was maintained ON PURPOSE.

When the combined MEC occured this weekend, the DAL MEC now represents Compass pilots.

Nu

I knew this, and it also appears that we maintained the status quo with the MEC. We have a CPZ coordinator with no voting rights.
So, yes I feel that we should just staple them now. I would love to have them on our list. Personally I think that they should be on there now.
The CPA pilot group is relatively new and there would not be one of them that would have an issue with it. I say lets do it!

 

[NuGuy]

I knew this, and it also appears that we maintained the status quo with the MEC. We have a CPZ coordinator with no voting rights.
So, yes I feel that we should just staple them now. I would love to have them on our list. Personally I think that they should be on there now.
The CPA pilot group is relatively new and there would not be one of them that would have an issue with it. I say lets do it!

Heyas ACL,

Agree.

CPZ was conceived and operated from the start as a extension of NWA (now DAL). For the entire time it has been existence, it has been %100 under the operational control of the NWA. There hasn't been a single decision over there that hasn't had some kind of NWA stamp of approval from some NWA muckety muck.

The absorption of CPZ would be a no brainer.

The same thing cannot be said Mesaba, PCL, Comair or any other operator. Each one of these operations has at least an "arms length" away from NWA/DAL.

It will be easy to merge CPZ. The agreement is essentially in place already. It will be MUCH harder with XJ (but I support this %100 as well), because you're talking about a VERY split fleet that includes Saabs, and mama DAL wants/needs that cheap turboprop feed. I also feel the senior pilots there will NOT like the opportunity that is presented, and it will become more trouble than it is worth.

MY prediction. Further LARGE re-wind of the 50 seaters. VERY small markets will continue to be served by XJ Saabs. The non-wholly owned operators will find their contracts gradually paired down and/or eliminated. I think the speed at which this happens is dependent on the outcome of the Mesa case.

I would say PCL will be cut loose. ASA as well. I don't think there is room enough for everyone, and these two have the most 50 seat exposure.

Large RJ feed will be consolidated into a single carrer. It wouldn't surprise me to see XJ split into the jet operation, which will be folded into CPZ, and a spin off of the turboprop operation.

One thing is certain. Fee for departure is dead, dead, dead, and mama Delta will not sign any new ones, and will try everything they can to wiggle out of the one's they have now.

FFD commits TOO much money when the economy goes south, and the "fuel cost caps" many contained cost the mainline a horrific amount of money during the run-up of oil, while loads collapsed.

Going forward, you will see what lift operators there are forced to "pay the freight" on the services they provide. Look for fee-per-passenger, and the regionals will be taking much more on the risk side. Guaranteed profits will be a thing of the past.

Nu

 

[FDJ2]

I thought I read somewhere that DALPA got a $600,000,000 bargaining credit for scope relief in the bankruptcy negotiation.

Not true.

 

[michael707767]

I thought I read somewhere that DALPA got a $600,000,000 bargaining credit for scope relief in the bankruptcy negotiation.

Not true.

Actaully, I have heard more than one ALPA rep defend the scope concession during LOA 51 saying that we could not have recieved the retirement money if we had not given scope relief.

DALPA went from saying they would never concede on anything above 70 seats to down playing the new scope and talking up the retirement money and bankruptcy claim in the space of a week. Draw your own conclussions.

 

[Ridgeback]

If the aircraft says Delta on the side, it should be flown by Delta pilots. We should start with the larger EMB175s and CRJ900s and work our way down.

This proves my point...In one breath you say anything with delta on the side...but let's start with the biggest??

Why not start with the mesaba Saabs?

Also for the record MESABA DOES HAVE A FLOW AGREEMENT WITH DELTA!!!!

 

[FBN0223]

This proves my point...In one breath you say anything with delta on the side...but let's start with the biggest??

Why not start with the mesaba Saabs?

Also for the record MESABA DOES HAVE A FLOW AGREEMENT WITH DELTA!!!!

Ok, so to be clear...if a Delta pilot is furloughed he/she can flow-down to a Mesaba Captain position and knock junior Mesaba pilots off the bottom. This is the case at Compass.

We would not start with the Saabs because those are the lowest paying and most of the SAAB flying was never NW or DL or at least hasn't been for several years. The EMB175s, and the CRJ900s fly former DL and NW route segments. I personally have flown almost every route segment in the Compass system during my 4000 hours as a DC-9 Co-pilot.

Also retaking the 34 seat Saab flying should be a goal but it's definitely not where we would start. Once again, in recapturing some of our flying, we would start where the money is. This is on the larger aircraft(EMBs and CRJ-900).

 

[FDJ2]

Actaully, I have heard more than one ALPA rep defend the scope concession during LOA 51 saying that we could not have recieved the retirement money if we had not given scope relief.

Michael, the question was, do we give them 30 76 seat aircraft and keep our contract, with it's notes, claims, pay raises, duty rigs, etc, or do we take it to the arbitrators panel and roll the dice, hoping to win and not have our contract rejected.

Quick question for you. Without a contract, what are the scope limits?

 

[michael707767]

Quick question for you. Without a contract, what are the scope limits?

Without a contract there is no scope. Thats a simple one.

The union always made a big deal that it was only six seats....so why not do it. I saw it just the opposite. It was only six seats so I don't think there is any way the company would have let that deal fall through over scope.

Quick question for you. If scope was the issue that was going to potentially jeapardize the whole deal and cause a BK rejection of our contract, why was DALPA saying they would hold the line at 70 seats? They were very forceful in saying they would not allow bigger RJs.

 

[Smarta$$]

If compass shared the same MEC and operated 50 seat aircraft on old DC9 routes, you guys would not be suggesting the staple.

 

[spitfiremk8]

NuGuy,

Think about way you're saying. The economy is the only variable as to what will happen with RJ flying. If Mngmt. and invstors can put more money in their pocket by flying RJs, then they will and you know it. Not saying that it is a good thing.

 

[flyboyzz1]

Heyas ACL,

I would say PCL will be cut loose. ASA as well. I don't think there is room enough for everyone, and these two have the most 50 seat exposure.

Large RJ feed will be consolidated into a single carrer. It wouldn't surprise me to see XJ split into the jet operation, which will be folded into CPZ, and a spin off of the turboprop operation.

One thing is certain. Fee for departure is dead, dead, dead, and mama Delta will not sign any new ones, and will try everything they can to wiggle out of the one's they have now.

Nu

Doesn't ASA ala SkyWest have a pretty tight contract with Delta? Heard they were already at the minimum block hours.