DL CRJs

[Monster Buck]

It was MSA's unwillingness to work with NWA/NWA ALPA which forced the creation of CPZ. NWA would have happily placed the 175's on the MSA certificate if they had scope relief from NWA ALPA. NWA ALPA wouldn't give it because MSA ALPA wouldn't sign off on unlimited flowback to these seats. Thus, CPZ was created. NWA ALPA allowed the scope relief being NWA pilots had 100% flowback rights to these seats. MSA wanted the jets with no risk. CPZ pilots stepped up knowing the risks. This is why they are in a better position to be absorbed by mainline than MSA. (WARNING...next opinion only--shared by many) MSA pilots were short sighted as they wanted all the 76 seat flying for themselves if they got the jets--wouldn't allow for unlimited flowback.

There are great threads from 2005(?) on this very subject if anyone cares to do the digging.

Schwanker

You knew us well!

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Where is the opportunity to absorb regional flying? How long is the joint contract that Delta/NWA just agreed to? Is there another opportunity to make changes besides the end of that agreement?

There are always opportunities. We just need to seize them.

Also with the current generation of RJ's being deemed inefficient, the next generation has the chance to go to mainline. The pendulum is swigging the other way. These new ones have all of the attributes of mainline jets. Plus, they are in the 76 plus seat range. Unless we fall on our sword, I foresee it being very hard to companies to outsource this flying.

 

[PuffDriver]

This is the same spiteful attitude that derailed everything back in 2000.
Fact is that no matter what you want to believe, there is no where in any DCI contract that states that the HAVE to renew it.
Realize that ALL DCI carriers are contract carriers and they flying lives and dies by this contract. Contracts at times get canceled or not renewed. It happens all of the time on corporate America.

There really wasn't much to derail. There was either going to be a flow through, or there wasn't. Notwithstanding the "genius" of N2264j in la-puke-ah, there was simply limited to NO support for one list within the ranks of Delta, the contract of any carrier did not REQUIRE it, so there was little legal ground to stand upon either--especially when the contracts DID stipulate which type of transactions required the merging of the lists.

Add to that, the mentality of the senior pilots at the two feeders, and yes, it fell flat on its face.

I just love this:

I do believe, however, that a union should treat all of its members fairly in accordance with its Constitution and By-laws.

How many examples of oxymoron can I find in the RJDCs own files. Let me count the ways. Overplayed hand, grossly.

I agree with you fins, there are too many contract carriers, and they will begin dying on the vine. Unfortunately, some really good folk will also be taken down with the likes of your Joe Merchants and N2264Js-- the true authors of the "ALPA Mutiny".

 

[CptMurf]

I was not in the negotiations so I can't tell you what the MSA MEC said. But I know for a fact that the Mesaba Pilots were willing to "step up". Especially at a time when almost all of our own flying had been at risk with threats from the likes of our parent company with Big Sky and over half of our pilot seniority list gone. There was a hell of a lot more going on than just a simple argument of hard headed Mesaba guys not willing to bend.

Absolutely. Not to mention XJ had tried multiple times prior to 9-11 to get a flowthrough agreement and were shot down by NWA MEC. It was only after 9-11 when multiple mainline furloughs were looming that the NWA MEC brought the flowthrough to the front burner. Guess we were expected to give up our up to 20 years of seniority for a NWA furlough, before we were allowed to flowthrough to mainline. Of course we fought for protections, we saw what happened at Eagle. We knew there had to be protections there, we had invested seniority. CPZ pilot didn't have seniority (there wasn't anyone there), when their flowthrough was negotiated by mainline MEC.

By some peoples logic (of integrating CPZ) here, I as a 10yr XJ guy would have to leave and give up seniority (and XJ's flow) to go to CPZ (agree to CPZ's flow) to be justly integrated because CPZ was created by mainline's MEC. Would you do that? I think I'll stay here till the chips fall.

 

[~~~^~~~]

CptMurf,

What happened to Mesaba in the interim? Things were pretty bleak as I recall.

As is, I can see the chips falling with a Comair / Mesaba rationalization and sale.

You can't really time these things... mergers and furloughs... you have to decide your principles and act accordingly.

At the core each of us are either a person who supports unity in the profession, or someone who acts out of self interest.

My position on one list has not changed through being junior, senior, during hiring times and dry spells. I encourage everyone to decide where they stand on the issue and then to advance their opinion through their Reps.

 

[JoeMerchant]

It will take a political shift away from senior mainline pilots thinking there is a benefit to selling flying that they see as below them and away from regional pilots who believe they are entitled to super seniority on a mainline list.

Point of clarification:

I only want "super seniority" on a mainline list IF the mainline pilots insist on "super seniority" on the regional list.....I have no problem with a staple to the bottom of mainline equipment IF the mainline pilots do the same.....The double standard won't fly...

I just had a CPT lesson with one of our RJ instructors who left ASA many years ago to go to Eastern and then PanAm....After the demise of those two "real jobs"...he returned to ASA and is in his late 50s now....To say his career is worth less than a 27 year old Delta new-hire speaks volumes as to the problem we have in solving this issue.....

Us senior regional "lifers" can work together.....But we will not taken advantage of....

 

[~~~^~~~]

Joe,

He made his choices, as did you and as have I. We live with the result. The value of all NWA and Delta pilots was effected by the SLI result. As with our mutual LCA friend, you keep getting up and going to work if flying is in your blood and you can't imagine a better endeavor to spend your time on.

If there are mergers the starting point has to be status quo. Compass at least has a bridge towards that unity.

You have written before that you have placed your bet with SkyWest, Inc. for better or worse and that you have no interest in coming on board at Delta. We know your vote. There is little point in your joining a debate about one list because we know that you are against one list unless it meets a very specific set of criteria that benefits you.

That's not intended to be an insult. You have explained your position of self interest as an intelligent and considered rebuttal to unity and unionism.

You were not that senior to me and you would not be that junior to me under one list. But, I do think you'd like Delta much more than even the better kinder ASA that exists now.

I'd like to know your thoughts on the pecking order if Compass manages to work out, then Comair, ASA, Mesaba line up (in no particular order). We already see some sniping between Mesaba and Compass and Comair as they jostle over who has better flow opportunities / order. Any ideas on how that gets resolved?

My assumption is that if the group isn't ALPA, they do not have a seat at the table, period.

You'll like the CRJ - great airplane to fly. Did you bid the 70/90 or the 50?

 

[N2264J]

Well if the RJDC says it's true it must be.:laugh:

The RJDC just reported it. It was Woerth and/or Moak who said it in the Atlanta Journal Constitution.

That's probably where Gumby read it.

 

[N2264J]

This is the same spiteful attitude that derailed everything back in 2000.

Spiteful attitude? You seem pretty sensitive when confronted
with the anti union behavior of your MEC.

Fact is that no matter what you want to believe, there is no where in any DCI contract that states that the HAVE to renew it.

You have access to management's contracts with DCI?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Spiteful attitude? You seem pretty sensitive when confronted
with the anti union behavior of your MEC.




You have access to management's contracts with DCI?

What I have is immaterial, but I can tell you that all expect for the last 10 or so pages that are considered trade secret are on the SEC website. It will take some digging to find them, but they are there. They have been for over three years.
Start with SKW and ASA. It is a good read. About 56 pages are avail. for public use.

 

[Fly4hire]

What I have is immaterial, but I can tell you that all expect for the last 10 or so pages that are considered trade secret are on the SEC website. It will take some digging to find them, but they are there. They have been for over three years.
Start with SKW and ASA. It is a good read. About 56 pages are avail. for public use.

ACL, The irony of all of this is despite the common good and sense of bringing CPZ on board, the memories of RJDC are too fresh with the DAL MEC, and it will likely never happen because it will be exploited by the "son of RJDC" types (as evidenced here) to rekindle that whole mess and seniority land grabs.

 

[flap operator]

Schwanker... I think you've got your timeline wrong. Mesaba didn't have a flow thru until sometime after we exited Ch11 as a wholly owned subsidiary. The 900s were already destined to XJ and the 175s destined to Compass. So how could we (XJ pilots) have not played ball, when there wasn't a ball in play, until well after the game started?

You mainliners are amazing. Especially those of you who were most recently at a regional. Picking and choosing the flying that is important to you and worthy of being scoped is incredible. That proves that you're willing to take it back, but only at a certain price. Yet, complain the whole time about what the company is doing by wanting scope relief and how they take advantage of WHAT YOU LET THEM HAVE. I'm so SICK of mainliners getting on my plane and giving me lip about my existence in the NW organization, all the while letting me get him home. The snarky, unprofessional and rude comments are out of this world.

Someone else mentioned it and I'll mention it again. If you're going to take it back... take it ALL back. That includes small turbo prop flying AND the more threatening LARE turboprop flying. Or is that flying not worthy?

I'm all for more jobs at mainline. I'd like to be there someday. But until mainline is willing to be in the drivers seat and take it ALL back, get off my back for trying to make a living and move up the food chain.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

ACL, The irony of all of this is despite the common good and sense of bringing CPZ on board, the memories of RJDC are too fresh with the DAL MEC, and it will likely never happen because it will be exploited by the "son of RJDC" types (as evidenced here) to rekindle that whole mess and seniority land grabs.

I understand where you are coming from. People need to understand what type of corporate structure they are under. Fact that even when EV and OH were owned by DAL there were still stark differences with CPZ and how it is structured.

I know people will try, but this is quite different.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Schwanker... I think you've got your timeline wrong. Mesaba didn't have a flow thru until sometime after we exited Ch11 as a wholly owned subsidiary. The 900s were already destined to XJ and the 175s destined to Compass. So how could we (XJ pilots) have not played ball, when there wasn't a ball in play, until well after the game started?

You mainliners are amazing. Especially those of you who were most recently at a regional. Picking and choosing the flying that is important to you and worthy of being scoped is incredible. That proves that you're willing to take it back, but only at a certain price. Yet, complain the whole time about what the company is doing by wanting scope relief and how they take advantage of WHAT YOU LET THEM HAVE. I'm so SICK of mainliners getting on my plane and giving me lip about my existence in the NW organization, all the while letting me get him home. The snarky, unprofessional and rude comments are out of this world.

Someone else mentioned it and I'll mention it again. If you're going to take it back... take it ALL back. That includes small turbo prop flying AND the more threatening LARE turboprop flying. Or is that flying not worthy?

I'm all for more jobs at mainline. I'd like to be there someday. But until mainline is willing to be in the drivers seat and take it ALL back, get off my back for trying to make a living and move up the food chain.

I was at a regional and even then I valued mainline and what that flying meant. Fact is that even you admit that mainline flying holds a higher value to you than your current position. Why?
Because you know your flying is contract flying and contracts can be amended, canceled or not renewed. There is some degree of stability working for a company that creates the flying. Out sourcing has caused some erosion of that, but overall, it is more stable than any RJ job.

I took a hit went to a major, and knew that there was not going to be DOH et al of a Majors and their regional airlines. I came to a major. So I often wonder why someone at the regional level would expect to leapfrong anyone at a major. That status quo of starting on the bottom coming to a major has never changed. Putting(Stapeling) you to a bottom of the list only increases your career expectations.
Furthermore, many RJ drivers are worried about a mainline guy taking their seat .Think of this for a second. A thrid year 767 FO makes over 96 an hr doing a lot less ups and downs than an RJ CA. Even a third year 88 FO makes 83.00 an hr. Once again, there is no way that they would down bid unless it was manadatory. There is little risk of someone like me going back to a job I willingly left.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe,

He made his choices, as did you and as have I. We live with the result. The value of all NWA and Delta pilots was effected by the SLI result. As with our mutual LCA friend, you keep getting up and going to work if flying is in your blood and you can't imagine a better endeavor to spend your time on.

True....we all make choices....and those choices are neither "right" or "wrong".....You are defending your job and I am defending my job....Our union built a wall between us and we find ourselves on opposite sides of that wall....Your tone has changed somewhat since you climbed over the wall...

You have written before that you have placed your bet with SkyWest, Inc. for better or worse and that you have no interest in coming on board at Delta. We know your vote. There is little point in your joining a debate about one list because we know that you are against one list unless it meets a very specific set of criteria that benefits you.


That's not intended to be an insult. You have explained your position of self interest as an intelligent and considered rebuttal to unity and unionism.

We have both placed "bets" for better or worse....I would submit that your side also only wants one list if it "meets a very specific set of criteria" that benefit your side....How am I any different?

I am not against "unity".....However I don't see it under the current system.....even amongst pilots of the "big leagues"....I am not gullible enough to think that there is unity amongst those of us in the "second tier".....

You were not that senior to me and you would not be that junior to me under one list. But, I do think you'd like Delta much more than even the better kinder ASA that exists now.

If that is the case...why have you made posts recently that state that you are ready to leave Delta if you get displaced to JFK? You have been quite down on your current situation lately....Is it true...or is it for effect?

I'd like to know your thoughts on the pecking order if Compass manages to work out, then Comair, ASA, Mesaba line up (in no particular order). We already see some sniping between Mesaba and Compass and Comair as they jostle over who has better flow opportunities / order. Any ideas on how that gets resolved?

First I don't think it is going to happen....so this is a purely academic exercise at this point....but I believe it should be done in accordance with ALPA merger policy....

My assumption is that if the group isn't ALPA, they do not have a seat at the table, period.

You'll like the CRJ - great airplane to fly. Did you bid the 70/90 or the 50?

Many of us who belong to ALPA don't have "a seat at the table".....At least they are saving 2% of their pay....

I bid the 200 for QOL....seems to fly nice....but it is really antiquated compared to the ATR.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

I took a hit went to a major, and knew that there was not going to be DOH et al of a Majors and their regional airlines. I came to a major. So I often wonder why someone at the regional level would expect to leapfrong anyone at a major.

1. I don't think there will be a single list amongst mainline and regionals.....and if there is I guarantee you it would never be DOH....Why do you insist on mis-representing this position?

2. I would never expect leapfrogging a mainline pilot as long as they respect my position on the equipment we operate.....Why would a mainline pilot expect to bump a regional pilot out of their seat?

That status quo of starting on the bottom coming to a major has never changed. Putting(Stapeling) you to a bottom of the list only increases your career expectations.

Do you realise that there are now Delta pilots who hired onto the Metroliner....A 19 seat turboprop....

What was their "career expectation"?

Furthermore, many RJ drivers are worried about a mainline guy taking their seat .Think of this for a second. A thrid year 767 FO makes over 96 an hr doing a lot less ups and downs than an RJ CA. Even a third year 88 FO makes 83.00 an hr. Once again, there is no way that they would down bid unless it was manadatory. There is little risk of someone like me going back to a job I willingly left.

There is little risk of you bidding back...However...

1. If you were to be furloughed....I bet you would like to come back in at the top of ASA/Mesaba/CMR etc. vs. hitting the street.

2. While you may not willingly bid back...Many in ATL would prefer being a senior ASA pilot to MD88 reserve in JFK.....

 

[Browntothebone]

Point of clarification:

I only want "super seniority" on a mainline list IF the mainline pilots insist on "super seniority" on the regional list.....I have no problem with a staple to the bottom of mainline equipment IF the mainline pilots do the same.....The double standard won't fly...

I just had a CPT lesson with one of our RJ instructors who left ASA many years ago to go to Eastern and then PanAm....After the demise of those two "real jobs"...he returned to ASA and is in his late 50s now....To say his career is worth less than a 27 year old Delta new-hire speaks volumes as to the problem we have in solving this issue.....

Us senior regional "lifers" can work together.....But we will not taken advantage of....

Why are you "really" a regional lifer?

 

[Browntothebone]

1. I don't think there will be a single list amongst mainline and regionals.....and if there is I guarantee you it would never be DOH....Why do you insist on mis-representing this position?

2. I would never expect leapfrogging a mainline pilot as long as they respect my position on the equipment we operate.....Why would a mainline pilot expect to bump a regional pilot out of their seat?





Do you realise that there are now Delta pilots who hired onto the Metroliner....A 19 seat turboprop....

What was their "career expectation"?



There is little risk of you bidding back...However...

1. If you were to be furloughed....I bet you would like to come back in at the top of ASA/Mesaba/CMR etc. vs. hitting the street.

2. While you may not willingly bid back...Many in ATL would prefer being a senior ASA pilot to MD88 reserve in JFK.....

What about the military guys at mainline having to see their military comrades having to start their "mainline" career in the right seat of an RJ. Now if you fence the RJ pilots permanently so that the mainline can't flow back and bump you out of your seats in exchange for allowing a military guy to start out at mainline then their might be some common ground to get a single list.

 

[flap operator]

AC - you missed my point. I see the value of a mainline job. I wish there were more of them. I want a mainline job job someday, fair and square. I do not however look up to you mainliners as better, or somehow more important that I am and somehow better than me. Most mainline pilots have been in the game longer to take advantage of opportunities and get lucky. In the end, no matter the size of aircraft, we all do the same thing. I truly only want to work for an airline that can control its destiny and I have no desire to leapfrog anyone to get there and that me is the greatest thing about working at a mainline.

I just want the respect that my fellow regional drivers and I deserve. We do the same job AS professionally, not almost as professionally as you all do. Why the constant disrespect? Mainline made this bed. Again... I'm just doing what I can to climb the ladder. I don't need anyone spitting on me, while I climb.

 

[Browntothebone]

AC - you missed my point. I see the value of a mainline job. I wish there were more of them. I want a mainline job job someday, fair and square. I do not however look up to you mainliners as better, or somehow more important that I am and somehow better than me. Most mainline pilots have been in the game longer to take advantage of opportunities and get lucky. In the end, no matter the size of aircraft, we all do the same thing. I truly only want to work for an airline that can control its destiny and I have no desire to leapfrog anyone to get there and that me is the greatest thing about working at a mainline.

I just want the respect that my fellow regional drivers and I deserve. We do the same job AS professionally, not almost as professionally as you all do. Why the constant disrespect? Mainline made this bed. Again... I'm just doing what I can to climb the ladder. I don't need anyone spitting on me, while I climb.

The early 20-something 300hr wonder who thinks this "job" is "cool" and doesn't care how much (or little) he gets paid and the mid-life career changer, who made good money in the real world and now wants to be an airline pilot for his "hobby".

 

[flap operator]

Everybody has to start somewhere right? This industry is not unfamiliar with lower time pilots. Even the majors are littered with guys who were lucky to get hired at a young age with low time. What do you expect aspiring pilots to do?

 

[PuffDriver]

AC - you missed my point. I see the value of a mainline job. I wish there were more of them. I want a mainline job job someday, fair and square. I do not however look up to you mainliners as better, or somehow more important that I am and somehow better than me. Most mainline pilots have been in the game longer to take advantage of opportunities and get lucky. In the end, no matter the size of aircraft, we all do the same thing. I truly only want to work for an airline that can control its destiny and I have no desire to leapfrog anyone to get there and that me is the greatest thing about working at a mainline.

I just want the respect that my fellow regional drivers and I deserve. We do the same job AS professionally, not almost as professionally as you all do. Why the constant disrespect? Mainline made this bed. Again... I'm just doing what I can to climb the ladder. I don't need anyone spitting on me, while I climb.

Whatever.

Add another to the Joe Merchant 2264J list.
:crying: :crying: :crying: :crying:

I don't get my love!!!!!!!!

 

[CptOver]

The early 20-something 300hr wonder who thinks this "job" is "cool" and doesn't care how much (or little) he gets paid and the mid-life career changer, who made good money in the real world and now wants to be an airline pilot for his "hobby".

Put the two together and it sounds like some low time military pilots I know, and they want to leapfrog too.

Before you hate, I'm a veteran too. Just didn't fly.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I do not however look up to you mainliners as better, or somehow more important that I am and somehow better than me. Most mainline pilots have been in the game longer to take advantage of opportunities and get lucky.

I just want the respect that my fellow regional drivers and I deserve.

I don't need anyone spitting on me, while I climb.

Everybody has to start somewhere right? This industry is not unfamiliar with lower time pilots. Even the majors are littered with guys who were lucky to get hired at a young age with low time. What do you expect aspiring pilots to do?

Dr. Fins prescribes a read of "Fate is the Hunter" "SkyGods" or any of the other autobiographical writings of pilots who threw their old worn out hat in the dustbin on the mandated day.

You will be happier when you stop measuring your value based on the respect of your peers. There will always be FO's that think they should be Captain instead of you, Line Check Airmen who get off on proving they know more than anyone else in the room, Management Pilots, pilots at up and coming airlines who think they're smarter because they have two year upgrades, etc ...

If a mainline FO sneers from across the Terminal, it might be the guy has a cold, or isn't wearing his glasses and is trying to squint his way back to 20/20 (happens as you get older and many pilots only take their glasses out then they need them to fly). Or, he might think your regional airline is the reason why he has a two leg commute to reserve on a smaller jet. In any event, just let it roll off your back, it ain't no big deal. What matters is that you are happy with your actions. Be friendly and show respect to others, even the person pushing the cleaning cart.

Don't think "respect" will carry the day for anyone. Even Capt. Sullenburger has folks digging through his school records looking for bad news to report.

What will bring this profession together is when the majority of pilots realize it is in their collective best interest to work together to increase compensation and job security.

This Delta / NWA deal serves as a good example. It isn't about respect as much as it is about the collective interest in self preservation and advancement.

 

[labbats]

Fin, stop making sense. While I agree with everything you said, these majors vs. regional threads are designed to sputter out into a pis sing contest.

I'm anxiously waiting for more flamebait from Browntothebone. I'm also doing advanced calculus for fun.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Labbats:

Thanks - after years of getting blown off by the mainline pilots with the courtesy "hat nod" I changed uniforms. Now I get sneered at by the regional guys while providing the same friendly tip of the cap. It is probably because I look like the Pan Am Captain in "Catch me if you can" and no one wants to be embarrassed by association with an airport version of "Smiling Bob."

 

[FDJ2]

The RJDC just reported it. It was Woerth and/or Moak who said it in the Atlanta Journal Constitution.

That's probably where Gumby read it.

Well if the AJC said it, it must be true. Are you sure Moak/Woerth said they received a credit?

 

[Texx]

What about the military guys at mainline having to see their military comrades having to start their "mainline" career in the right seat of an RJ. Now if you fence the RJ pilots permanently so that the mainline can't flow back and bump you out of your seats in exchange for allowing a military guy to start out at mainline then their might be some common ground to get a single list.

And what happens when a "mainline" pilot has a kid at a regional and has plenty of time as PIC. Does his or her "mainline" parent have the responsiblilty to try to help their child on at that mainline OR does their MIL "comrade" have priority?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

People who demand respect rarely get it, but those who command it rarely ask for it.

I think there are a lot of great regional guys, it is a few bad apples, as there are at the majors that give many in each respective group a bad name.
Think about this the next time you want to go off about some pilot or group.
Be a consummate professional and you will get the respect you desire, but not by demanding it.

 

[Schwanker]

Schwanker... I think you've got your timeline wrong. Mesaba didn't have a flow thru until sometime after we exited Ch11 as a wholly owned subsidiary. The 900s were already destined to XJ and the 175s destined to Compass. So how could we (XJ pilots) have not played ball, when there wasn't a ball in play, until well after the game started?

You mainliners are amazing. Especially those of you who were most recently at a regional. Picking and choosing the flying that is important to you and worthy of being scoped is incredible. That proves that you're willing to take it back, but only at a certain price. Yet, complain the whole time about what the company is doing by wanting scope relief and how they take advantage of WHAT YOU LET THEM HAVE. I'm so SICK of mainliners getting on my plane and giving me lip about my existence in the NW organization, all the while letting me get him home. The snarky, unprofessional and rude comments are out of this world.

Someone else mentioned it and I'll mention it again. If you're going to take it back... take it ALL back. That includes small turbo prop flying AND the more threatening LARE turboprop flying. Or is that flying not worthy?

I'm all for more jobs at mainline. I'd like to be there someday. But until mainline is willing to be in the drivers seat and take it ALL back, get off my back for trying to make a living and move up the food chain.

Flap,
I'm not on your back at all. The timeline I was talking about was PRE-Compass. Mainline had scope. To give it up, mainline ALPA wanted furloughs to have first rights on these larger jets. MSA MEC didn't want to give all 76 seat flying to furloughs (won't give "super-seniority"). Mainline was holding the cards and found a way to ensure "super-seniority" on the 76 seat jets for its furloughees via CPZ. I have complete respect for the MSA pilots and understand flowthru-flowback is a tough sell during the flowback period. Given this, CPZ was where the scope relief was granted. There would have been a mutiny at mainline to give up scope while your guys were hitting the streets. It was a tough period for all.

Schwanker